KMT legislators don't know women in KTV's are hostesses

So you advocate adultery and sexual promiscuity? Or is it just OK for married politicians to fool around on their wives? Is it just OK because this is the party you support? Or are you pretending that these guys aren’t sleazeballs because it’s embarrassing to support slims like this but you have to 'cause they’re you’re party?

After some thought, I guess you’re right. Polygamy should be OK. Adultery is fine as long as it’s only men who do it. Prostitution is OK but only in countries where the men buy girls all the time.[/quote]

From my experience these clubs are far from adultery and sexual promiscuity. More like a very expensive flirting environment. So if this was a Western setting, where you buy a girl a drink to talk to her with the intention of having sex with her, it would be okay?

But in Asia these places a specifically designed so that it doesn’t lead to sex.

Your talking about cultures that hire “office flowers” and “coffee girls” just so there is “eye candy,” not exactly a place where Christain value about promiscuity is very relevant in my opinion.

I also believe the host brought these people there. What are these politician suppose to do, reject the host invitation on grounds of a moral position that doesn’t exist.

I agree with you, politicians should do anything they are asked in the name of decorum. You also seemed to have missed my point. I don’t know if you’ve ever spoken to a woman, but they’re offended by these kind of clubs, even if no one is getting naked. Even the Taiwanese ones who are used to guys not really caring about how they feel are offended are offended. In fact, I wonder if you’ve ever talked with anyone about these kind of clubs, since the whole purpose of them is that they’re sleazy. But I guess you’re right, doing things that offend voters is OK as long as they’re only women. I agree; politicians shouldn’t need to show any level of moral judgment as long as a host politician or businessman says it’s OK in his country.

This argument is getting awfully close to the, “I’m Chinese, so I know.” name calling. Is it true that no one cares? If it’s completely innocuous behaviour, like having a drink in a pub, why would anyone even print it in the first place?

And that’s why many women work at these clubs. And so many of these types of clubs exist all over asia and abroad catering to asians.

This is not a “I’m Chinese, so I know” issues. It more of a “I’m a foriegner with Christain values, so let me thump on the Bible and get on a soap box in front of the hethans.”

Your point doesn’t exist in a society that is fundimental non-Christain. It is not a sin to flirt in Asia, it is not a sin to be seen with an attractive young lady at a lounge with no intention of sleeping with her.

If your Asian language skills are good enough and your wallets thick enough, it is actually an enjoyable form of recreation.

I known many women and there are too many reasons why places like this exist. I definitely don’t think it is healthy to look down on people in this industry.

Do you condemn Greek fraternaties where members pay to become friends and drinking buddies? Do you condemn Taiwan’s binglang retail strategies?

I even know of Taiwanese wives that tell there husband go visit these places, because they feel due to their social position and age it is no longer proper to behave like these hostesses and be the target of rowdy jokes.

So it is the whispers and allegation of something inappropriate happening which upset people like this. It is a face issue, not a moral issue, that is offending them now.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
And that’s why many women work at these clubs. And so many of these types of clubs exist all over Asia and abroad catering to Asians…I even know of Taiwanese wives that tell there husband go visit these places, because they feel due to their social position and age it is no longer proper to behave like these hostesses and be the target of rowdy jokes.[/quote]

Tell me you’re joking. There are massage parlours everywhere as well. You even know wives who allow their husbands to go to these places. Wow! Your insight into Taiwan society is amazing. I’m just not sure what that has to do with anything. I know wives who allow their husbands to have sex with other women. Some of these wives even join in. North America is chock-a-block with strip parlours and where they are legal or tolerated brothels are everywhere. But I doubt that this has much to do with what’s considered acceptable for KMT politicans on tour or even for regular men.

I suppose what I’m saying is that the facts you talk about may be true, but this tells me less about things in Taiwan than you intend and much more about what kind of person you are.

[quote=“IamEtonSmegma”][quote=“ac_dropout”]
And that’s why many women work at these clubs. And so many of these types of clubs exist all over Asia and abroad catering to Asians…I even know of Taiwanese wives that tell there husband go visit these places, because they feel due to their social position and age it is no longer proper to behave like these hostesses and be the target of rowdy jokes.[/quote]

Tell me you’re joking. There are massage parlours everywhere as well. You even know wives who allow their husbands to go to these places. Wow! Your insight into Taiwan society is amazing. I’m just not sure what that has to do with anything. I know wives who allow their husbands to have sex with other women. Some of these wives even join in. North America is chock-a-block with strip parlours and where they are legal or tolerated brothels are everywhere. But I doubt that this has much to do with what’s considered acceptable for KMT politicans on tour or even for regular men.

I suppose what I’m saying is that the facts you talk about may be true, but this tells me less about things in Taiwan than you intend and much more about what kind of person you are.[/quote]
Once again I need to ask how is a lounge similar to a massage parlor. Who said anyone had sex at these lounges. Care to enlighten me on how one is suppose to have sex with drinks and tables everywhere.

Your ignorance on the topic is quite amusing. In your simplistic view of the world if money exchanges hand between a man and a woman, sex has to have occured. You even take concept of “open marriages” to the extreme. That menage-a-tois must be the conclusion, if a wife condones of her husband to flirt with other women.

I don’t doubt that these lounges cater to a fantasy. That for a moment the male patron is the ultimate suave playboy able to keep a young attractive women attention with the most entertaining banter. But that’s a far cry from the brothel that you keep alluding to.

Perhaps that’s the problem with USA, adult entertainment is directly about sex and flesh. Its a little different in Asia where there is just a little bit more culture.

[quote=“ac_dropout”][quote=“IamEtonSmegma”][quote=“ac_dropout”]
And that’s why many women work at these clubs. And so many of these types of clubs exist all over Asia and abroad catering to Asians…I even know of Taiwanese wives that tell there husband go visit these places, because they feel due to their social position and age it is no longer proper to behave like these hostesses and be the target of rowdy jokes.[/quote]

Tell me you’re joking. There are massage parlours everywhere as well. You even know wives who allow their husbands to go to these places. Wow! Your insight into Taiwan society is amazing. I’m just not sure what that has to do with anything. I know wives who allow their husbands to have sex with other women. Some of these wives even join in. North America is chock-a-block with strip parlours and where they are legal or tolerated brothels are everywhere. But I doubt that this has much to do with what’s considered acceptable for KMT politicans on tour or even for regular men.

I suppose what I’m saying is that the facts you talk about may be true, but this tells me less about things in Taiwan than you intend and much more about what kind of person you are.[/quote]
Once again I need to ask how is a lounge similar to a massage parlor. Who said anyone had sex at these lounges. Care to enlighten me on how one is suppose to have sex with drinks and tables everywhere.

Your ignorance on the topic is quite amusing. In your simplistic view of the world if money exchanges hand between a man and a woman, sex has to have occured. You even take concept of “open marriages” to the extreme. That menage-a-tois must be the conclusion, if a wife condones of her husband to flirt with other women.

I don’t doubt that these lounges cater to a fantasy. That for a moment the male patron is the ultimate suave playboy able to keep a young attractive women attention with the most entertaining banter. But that’s a far cry from the brothel that you keep alluding to.

Perhaps that’s the problem with USA, adult entertainment is directly about sex and flesh. Its a little different in Asia where there is just a little bit more culture.[/quote]

That’s pretty amazing that once again, you have completely missed my point. It’s got nothing to do with what I think happens at these places and everything to do with your logic. It may have escaped your careful proofreader’s eye, but officials in Taiwan have been forced to resign for attending such places. The fuss over this is hardly a foreigner thing and it’s hardly new.

Which official and in what context?

There have been officials that have resigned and drive German cars. Am I too assume that German cars cause political pressure where resignation is the solution.

My point is that this is such an obvious distraction to the real problem, CSB not resigning from office, that the public doesn’t buy it.

So you can rant about it all you want, but it won’t help resolve the problem of CSB polling numbers and the political pressure direct against him to leave office.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Which official and in what context?

There have been officials that have resigned and drive German cars. Am I too assume that German cars cause political pressure where resignation is the solution.

My point is that this is such an obvious distraction to the real problem, CSB not resigning from office, that the public doesn’t buy it.

So you can rant about it all you want, but it won’t help resolve the problem of CSB polling numbers and the political pressure direct against him to leave office.[/quote]

So you show your real colours here. This has nothing to do with what is right or wrong and everything to do with Green and Blue. In fact, if this is what you really believe why bother even pretending that hostess bars are considered by to be innocent fun. Just say right out that your KMT buddies could have been taking part in live sex shows and it wouldn’t matter.

By the way, it’s funny that you should mention CSB, at least his aide Ma Yung-cheng (馬永成) had the integrity to resign after it was revealved he frequented hostess bars.

Working as a hostess is unacceptable work for a ‘proper’ woman. And hanging out in places like that is not what people with spotless records should be doing, whether they’re teachers or other public leaders, or whether they’re DPP or KMT.

One final point, in Singapore, being hostess is legally defined as an “objectionable occupation”.

Maybe I don’t know what really goes on in a KTV place, but how is singing along with some hostesses different from visiting a geisha place in Japan or attending a rock show performed by skimpily dressed women in the States?

First, I have no idea what you mean by a geisha. There are almost no geisha in Japan anymore. If you mean a Japanese hostess bar, then there’s probably not that much difference. And, despite the delusions of some of people on this thread, there’s probably not that much difference between a strip bar, a topless, and a hostess bar in the minds of most Taiwanese.

None of this has anything to do with my feelings about hostess bars and who should go there. These are disreputable places and people in positions of trust are not expected to be going there. How would you feel if you found out that the principal of your child’s elementary school was seen in strip bar? Some people would care. Some people wouldn’t. Some people would excuse it because, after all, men are men. Some people might even say that there are women who go to those place or some wives even encourage their husbands to go because it takes pressure off them. The point is that it’s sleazy and bound to affect public trust.

That’s because that Ma Yung-cheng is also alledgedly involved in the Sogo scandal as a power broker. It doesn’t help that previous person in the Secretary-General position, Chen Che-nan (陳哲男), has been arrested for the Kaohsiung rapid transit scandal.

The hostess bars was not the main reason for his resignation. His official statements were along the lines of “helping CSB facilitate reform the government” since he was embroiled in the Sogo scandal.

Your reasoning would be like stating Chen Che-nan (陳哲男) resigned because he went gambling too much.

They are not that difficult to locate either. But one is expected to eventually support a geisha and have sex with her; or even more degrading by buying her virginity at a closed auction. That can not be said of hostesses at a bar.

Not to mention people with a sheltered upbringing with overt Western Christain values. Bunch of little boys circle jerking to stories of exotic asian women fawning over them. “Me love you long time, GI”

Maybe in your naive world. But compare to the behavior of the current pan-Green leadership, the pan-Blue are saints that can do no wrong now. Do you see any public pressure asking for the resignation of the delegation that is trying to establish the mini-3-links with the PRC?

Let me just sum up my views of this moral digression, spoken without benefit of soapbox or high-horse:

  • I personally do lose a significant amount of personal respect for those who treat their wives/girlfriends/families without respect or consideration;

  • That said, I think the bible-thumping about these “places of disrepute” is pretty laughable. Please keep in mind that prostitution was until recently legal in Taiwan, and remains legal in Australia, Canada, Hong Kong, England… let’s just say that different societies have different standards of what reputable behavior might be. Moral absolutism might make sense in some fields, but prositution and sexual “promiscuity” is certainly outside of its realm.

Hopefully you do understand that for billions of people around the world, nightclubs where scantily clad girls get drunk and often meet nearly-anonymous strangers for sexual activity are also considered incredibly disreputable places… in the West, its just a rite of passage.

  • All in all, I do think its “fair” to consider these spiritual failures (spitting on the streets, fornificating with bar-girls, not sending flowers on mother’s day) while judging the overall worth of a political leader. I also think those who believe this is a significant scandal are in the extreme minority.

Are we talking about what are also referred to as “talking bars”? If so, for once I agree with AC Dropout. Half of the pubs in Taiwan are talking bars. Nothing goes on in those places except getting gouged for over-priced beer and playing stupid cup/dice games, and if it’s a karoake joint, lots of horribly off-key drunken singing. They’re boring as hell and not very “sexy”, IMAO.

You forgot to add that the girls are very keen to help you drink that over priced beer at an astonishing rate. Errrr… at least that’s what I’ve heard :blush:

That’s because that Ma Yung-cheng is also alledgedly involved in the Sogo scandal as a power broker.
[/quote]

You’ve got this all screwed up. Ma’s hostess bar resignation occurred when CSB was MAYOR of Taipei.

My point is that no matter what you and your friends think of hostess bars, they are not where proper people are supposed to be.

I have been to many hostess bars and more. I am not arguing about the points of merits of the KMT or the DPP. Nor am I arguing whether or not such places are really ‘that bad’ I personally find them pretty boring and being a cheap bastard find it ridiculous that people pay girls to talk to them.

My point is the AC is simply wrong when he says that no one cares. Work in such places is considered undesirable. Having worked as a hostess stigmatizes a woman. I have dated many bar hostess and knowing at least some to be wonderful people, this to be ridiculous. But this is the case. While there are many businessmen who ‘entertain’ friends and clients in hostess bars, there are many who do this in brothels. The frequency with which people use these establishments is hardly a measure of their social acceptance. Whether AC will acknowledge it or not, it is not considered appropriate for public officials, teachers, or Buddhist monks to be frequenting such places. It is bound to lead to trouble.

In fact, I suspect that AC knows perfectly well what I’m talking about, and if it were the DPP in China singing with girls on their laps, he’d be whinning about their sleazy behaviour.

[quote] if it were the DPP in China singing with girls on their laps, he’d be whinning about their sleazy behaviour.[/quote]Unless it was Ma Yung-cheng (馬永成). Then he would be enjoying himself on ill gotten gains from the Sogo scandal.

But to comment on Ma Yung-cheng previous resignation when CSB was mayor…did he resign before or after CSB campaigned to shut down all forms of prostitution in Taipei?

You know the irony of all this only reveals the hypocrite in you. First you say that “hostesses” are the same profession as “strippers” and “prostitutes.” That they are moral degenerates. Then you comment on how wonderful they are when they date you, whereby you get their “services” for free or at a discount, which coincidentally doesn’t contradict your “cheap” nature.

Perhaps there are people in world with more disposable income that enjoy meeting “wonderful people” in a casual situation with well define roles for both parties. Because many people I know find “success” to be a burden in expanding their social circle. They become guarded in all their interactions. These clubs offer an outlet.

[quote]it is not considered appropriate for public officials, teachers, or Buddhist monks to be frequenting such places.[/quote]Unless they aren’t human. That’s what’s wrong with Christian values. Those professions don’t have to take a vow of celibacy. Unlike the west where you a branded with a scarlet letter for the rest of your life, there is usually no more a stigma being a “hostess” than being a “binglang girl,” because no sex is involved. In fact, in some circles it is considered a positive thing, since the girl has to have a certain physical beauty and charm to be successful.

I’m sure you have prejudices against girls that have tongue piercing and tattoos as well. Unless they are dating you then they become “wonderful people” all of a sudden.

But if you think about your comment even further, is it not the responsibility of the media, to filter out non-relevant information about the public figures to be broadcast? So the question isn’t really why do humans goto hostess bars? It is really why is the media reporting about this incident, which is neither relevant nor important to the mini-3-links?

AC_Dropout Wrote

In all fairness. he was contratsing his opinion with general perceptions of bar hostesses. Do you disagree?

The women I spoke to working in these clubs are not offended at all. Especally if you’re polite and hand over your money generously. :smiley: :smiley: