Late night nightmare

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
1

Stumbled home from the Boiler Room at 1:30 or so this morning only to meet one of my neighbours walking her 2 pooches.

One was a ‘Gustav’ lookalike, and as I share a community with Maoman it took me a moment to find out whether I knew this dog or not. By then it was too late and the poor bugger was doing the ‘lying on the back and being spoilt’ routine. Oh well, my mistake.

Then I switched my attention to the other one, which immediately and without warning sank its teeth into my hand. I was (understandably, I felt) a bit miffed at this and wandered off feeling hard done by. But when I got to the light by my building door I discovered four puncture wounds and blood pouring down my hand.

So a combination of 12 hours worth of Bacardi, and simple animal rage, led me to go back and find this stupid animal. I growled at it, took the lead from the hands of the ineffectual woman making ‘PaiSe’ noises, and kicked the fucker in the head. After it had escaped from the collar I chased it around for a while bellowing shit like “Fuck with me, would you?” and the like, until I felt that it had had enough, and then retired upstairs.

Then I calmed down a bit, helped by poor Brian - my own best friend in the whole world. I have been told a couple of times by the security guards here (I live at Lotus Hill) to keep him on a lead when I walk the poor guy, because some poor buggers are afraid of a little friendly dog that only wants to be friends with anyone. The enormous unfairnes of this really hurts.

Suddenly I was confronted with this picture of a four year-old kid shrieking ‘GoGo!’ - as happens almost daily - and running into the jaws of the dog I had just encountered. This is what the thankfully small number of paranoid individuals at Lotus Hill are scared of when they complain about me and Mr Harmless. But it really hit me that responsible dog-owners are being persecuted because of owners who can’t control their dogs.

So the two of us went marching back up to the security office. What the fuck was I thinking? This adds ammunition to the ‘muzzle and chain your dog’ brigade.

Still, even with my minimal Chinese, I managed to communicate the fact that I didn’t hate dogs, didn’t want to extort money from the dog owner, and didn’t want to even file a formal complaint that could escalate. Actually, she was there five minutes behind me and arrived to find the security guys playing with Brian the quintessential attention-slut-mutt.

I hope that I communicated the fact that dogs are not intrinsically bad, or inclined to bite people. It is my profound wish that this dog-owner will learn to control her dog, rather than that all dog-owners will be forced to abide by unreasonable regulations.

But still, I expect that this is not the end of this and would appreciate any advice on managing the situation so that a) Loretta doesn’t go prowling around swinging a chain again, and b) well-behaved dogs and their owners can enjoy their communities and embrace the simple pleasure of seeing a 4-yr old chasing a dog without fear.

Yours, in despond…
A concerned friend of a small animal.

2

Taiwan has a stupid law that says dogs over a certain size have to be muzzled when they are out and about. Stupid because a dog’s propensity to bite has no relation to its size. But in the case of this particular dog, clearly it should be muzzled. Not all day - just when it’s out. So please remind the owner about the law.

Then the dog needs to be socialized, which is easier said than done, and even harder to achieve if the owner doesn’t care or understand…

By the way, I got a nasty bite, too, from the dog called Laifu at the coffee bean shop in Shi-Da market street. Watch out for that one - he’s dangerous.

3

Loretta, at least the woman said sorry. Much better than the reacton you’ll get from most dog owners here in Canada.

I don’t know what’s happened in the last 10 years but the number of narcissists just seems to grow every year.

I jog in a wooded area not far from my house. Dogs are supposed to be on a lease but only about half the people who take their dogs down there bother. At first, it didn’t concern me. We always had dogs growing up and I am naturally very fond of them.

But then I kept having situations where dogs ran at me, snapped at me, or jumped on me. This is not surprising when you consider the dog’s perspective: big male running straight at his owner.

In any case, it started to wear on my nerves especially on the boardwalk area where you often can’t see around the corner. Imagine running down a narrow boardwalk, bush on either side, turnign a blind corner and confronted by a startled German Shepard. The owner is no where in sight. You have to now walk past this very large dog and hope he is friendly.

It got to the point where I had to change my jogging route to avoid the boardwalk. Incidents like the above were happenign too often and the owners, when I talked to them, did not care. I even had one guy literally ask me for a fight because I insisted on him getting his dog away from me. (He was sitting while I jogged past and his dog ran out after me.)

Last week I had three seperate incidents in one walk. In one two young great danes surrounded me while the owner just laughed and told me they would follow her as she past. They didn’t and I told her to “Get them the fuck away from me.” She just laughed and continued. I had to ease my way around the one dog as he refused to move.

I would have loved to have gone after the woman and given her shit but I couldn’t with her not caring and her two massive dogs running free. Do you really think she would have felt ashamed, or even in the wrong. I think you are much better off in Taiwan from the sounds of it. People in the west just don’t give a fuck anymore and, worse than Taiwan, they get really angry and violent when you try to tell them they something is their problem, not yours.

I’ve come to the point where I’m getting paranoid about going out. I want to yell at every dog not on a lease which is not fair. Half the dogs are well behaved and the owners pull them aside or put them back on a lease when they see me running. This is right. Dogs should be on a lease when they are in public and there are other people around. The world is just too crowded now. Bylaws may seem like they take the fun out of everything, but they are necessary.

So I think in response to your questions about how to handle the situation, I think you have to accept that dogs should be on a lease when out no matter how friendly you think they are. Remember that not all people like dogs, nor are they under any obligation to get over this dislike. Brian may seem like the sweetest dog to you, but to someone who does not like dogs, and does not know you, he is a frightening creature. Such people are not paranoid as you so arrogantly, and insensitively put it. They just don’t like dogs.
You need to accet that.

You also should never touch a strange dog without asking the owner if it is frendly. My sister’s dog is a sweetie but you can’t touch her on the lower back or she will snap. She won’t bite but she will snap. We think she had been kicked around a lot by the previous owner. So whenever a new person asks to pat the dog that person has to be told not to touch the lower back.

You took your chances patting the little dog. That he bit you was unfortunate and in Canada he would be put down. But you were wrong to attack him. The owner was very sorry which is all she can be. Maybe she has little control over her dog or maybe she didn’t knwo her dog has some sensitive spots or an aversion to foreigners. But in any case, as you said, she had it on a lease so I don’t see how she was being irresponsible.

My niece was bitten on the face by a very old and freindly dog last year. We think she pulled it’s tail and the n
d the old guy just snapped. Unfortunately it was the second incident in 6 months so he had to be put down. But no one, includind my brother and his wife, freaked out on the dog. They accepted that he was getting old, maybe a little senile, and could not be trusted around people anymore. Good dogs sometimes go bad. And they don’t advertise when it is going to happen.

4

You let the dog off easy. I would have killed it…and I mean that literally. And then after I had killed it I would have thrown the carcass at the owner…and I mean that literally.

5

Taipei people keep dogs to make themselves feel big. Contradict me on this, someone. They like nothing better than when their dogs intimidate or inconvenience someone. I have never seen a group of people who know so little or care less about dogs. Dogs in cities - in tiny little apartments? Sorry, I have no time for it, and frankly I’m not that impressed with foreigners who keep dogs in little apartments knowing full well they’re going to fuck off in a few years and abandon the dog. What’s next? Keeping horses?

I would have kicked the living fuck out of the dog, called the police, and sued the owner. Actually, if it was a big dog I would just have done the latter.

6

Whose to blame? The woman. The woman. The woman. However it went down, leashed or not, the dog bit somebody while in the woman’s charge so it’s the woman’s fault.
If it had been my dog and it was off the leash and bit someone who approached it, it would be on the first of two warnings. If it was leashed, in my charge and bit someone, it would forfeit the first warning and be straight home to stand in a hole and recieve a charge of No. 3 shot in the back of the skull from close range.
None of the other trainers I know would do it any differently, either. Doesn’t matter if it’s a 3,000 quid trials champion. A biter is a worthless piece of shit and a liability.
Of course, proper training should ensure that a dog isn’t a biter, but again, that’s the woman’s fault.

7

But what did the dog do that was so wrong? Did it chase after you as you innocently walked by?
From your post it sounded like you put your hand near its face or tried to pet it…a dog you don’t even know.
Doesn’t a dog have a right to bite somebody who just wanders up to it and starts putting his hands all over its body, uninvited?
Actually I would really like to know, I’m not very well-informed when it comes to dogs.

8

If a dog goes for me it will be in pain. I hit one between the eyes with the pointy end of my umbrella once. If I were bitten, I’d kill it.

9

I agree that if a dog “goes” for somebody (attacks) that person has a right to react in any way he or she sees fit, and the dog should probably be put to sleep if completely unprovoked.
But I still want to know…what if you are entering the dog’s space, be it jumping over a fence onto “its property”, or just walking up to it, as a complete stranger, and starting to pat it.
In your opinion, is this like the three laws of robotics?
Dog will do nothing to hurt Man, even though Man is being a complete jerk and annoying Dog.
Amen.

10

[quote=“twonavels”]But what did the dog do that was so wrong? Did it chase after you as you innocently walked by?
From your post it sounded like you put your hand near its face or tried to pet it…a dog you don’t even know.
Doesn’t a dog have a right to bite somebody who just wanders up to it and starts putting his hands all over its body, uninvited?
Actually I would really like to know, I’m not very well-informed when it comes to dogs.[/quote]

Read this (scroll down to “He just wants to say Hi”)

I’m not certain how I feel about this incident. On the one hand, I, like sandman, have no tolerance for a dog that is human aggressive. On the other hand, I think that a mistake was clearly made by loretta when he approached an unfamiliar dog. He said he had been drinking. Perhaps the dog had been beaten previously by a drunk and the smell of booze set him off???

I’m all in favor of keeping dos on leads when in public. However, I do not favor muzzling a dog on a lead. There are too many other people who do not restrain their dogs and I think it unfair to take away a leashed dog’s only method of self defense by muzzling him/her.

11

Being a Lotus Hill resident and fellow dog owner, I know the dogs in question and their owner. She hasn’t trained the dogs at all. The lab has good genes to counteract any nastiness, but the other dog is just a nervous, untrained menace. The woman who walks him is not a responsible dog owner, IMO.

Who do you like on the other hand? :wink:

12

[quote=“sandman”]Whose to blame? The woman. The woman. The woman. However it went down, leashed or not, the dog bit somebody while in the woman’s charge so it’s the woman’s fault.
If it had been my dog and it was off the leash and bit someone who approached it, it would be on the first of two warnings. If it was leashed, in my charge and bit someone, it would forfeit the first warning and be straight home to stand in a hole and recieve a charge of No. 3 shot in the back of the skull from close range.
[/quote]

You’re forgetting that Loretta was stumbling (his words) drunk when he went to pet the smaller dog. His actions may have unintentionally suggested aggression to the smaller dog. The dog, let’s remember took one bite. He did not attack further. He may well have felt himself under attack from this drunk stranger.

I agree that a biter is a problem and usually must be put down. But if this ever was investigated or went to court Loretta would look very bad.

In fact, in any civilized country he would now be up on criminal charges for attacking the dog. If I was the owner, I would be suing you. You went after the dog with revenge as your motive. He was long past doing you any harm. That’s nuts and in court would be used to argue that you were in a violent state of mind when you first went to pat the dog and this is what likely provoked his bite.

I’m not saying you were (as Maoman says, the dog is ill-behaved) but the fact that you could so compleltely lose control and seek out the dog after you had returned to your apartment suggests you were not in a very stable frame of mind that night. And the way you described your assault on the dog sounds like you were taking out a lot of unrelated frustrations out on that animal. He may have deserved a kick or a slap (at the time of biting), but he did not deserve to be kicked and chased after you had left the scene and had a chance to calm down.

Yeah, and in a civilized country, which all you tough guys frequently lament you don’t live in, you would be counter-sued and brought up on criminal charges.

13

Perhaps Loretta needs another change of name; how about “dogbasher”? :wink:

14

[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]

Yeah, and in a civilized country, which all you tough guys frequently lament you don’t live in, you would be counter-sued and brought up on criminal charges.[/quote]

What is with the mocking “tough guy” references? This has nothing to do with being a “tough guy”.

I agree with you that in this incident the dog may have been justified in biting, and also agree that the dog only bit once… this is somewhat consistent with dog behavior and warnings they give when their space is encroached (somewhat… the dog should have growld first, although the encroachment might have occurred too fast for that warning to have been given…)

I love dogs very much. However, a human agressive dog is, as sandman stated, no good to anyone (except as a guard dog, perhaps).

If a dog bites me in Pennsylvania and I do violence to the dog in return, I would not likely be sued or brought up on criminal charges. Maybe we’re just not very civilized in Pennsylvania… :unamused:

15

[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“Mucha (Muzha) (Muzha) Man”]

Yeah, and in a civilized country, which all you tough guys frequently lament you don’t live in, you would be counter-sued and brought up on criminal charges.[/quote]

What is with the mocking “tough guy” references? This has nothing to do with being a “tough guy”.

I agree with you that in this incident the dog may have been justified in biting, and also agree that the dog only bit once… this is somewhat consistent with dog behavior and warnings they give when their space is encroached (somewhat… the dog should have growld first, although the encroachment might have occurred too fast for that warning to have been given…)

I love dogs very much. However, a human agressive dog is, as sandman stated, no good to anyone (except as a guard dog, perhaps).

If a dog bites me in Pennsylvania and I do violence to the dog in return, I would not likely be sued or brought up on criminal charges. Maybe we’re just not very civilized in Pennsylvania… :unamused:[/quote]

I was not referng to you TM, as you were one of the few psoters who actually agreed that Loretta bears some of the resposibility for what happened.

My words were directed at those who think that attacking a small dog some time after he has bitten you is justified. I already said if you hit or beat a dog back in direct retaliation to an attack, or to defend yourself you should not be charged. But if you deliberately sought a dog after a bite (not an attack but a bite) and then strangled or beat him to death in a drunken rage you would most certainly be facing criminal charges and a civil suit from the owner.

I am not talking about defending yourself. Nor am I talking about demanding an aggressive dog be put down. Read my first post. I go at lenght about how here in Canada I am facing aggressive dogs, and uncaring owners, several times a week. I am completely sympathetic to people’s concern about their safety and the safety of their loved ones. But talk about beating a defenseless dog to death is vile, and morally indefensible.

16

[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]
You’re forgetting that Loretta was stumbling (his words) drunk when he went to pet the smaller dog. His actions may have unintentionally suggested aggression to the smaller dog. The dog, let’s remember took one bite. He did not attack further. He may well have felt himself under attack from this drunk stranger. [/quote]

Even my OWN dogs hide when I’m in this state – I can’t imagine how that poor little dog felt! :wink:

I wonder if the dog will be more or less aggressive to stumbling drunks and/or small children in the future, after its had the shit kicked out of it. Any dog psychologists out there?

17

Well, OK. But, you directed your remarks at DB and he made no statement indicating that he would seek out the dog some time after the fact. For all we know, he meant that he would have killed the dog as soon as it bit him.

While I still think that in the present incident, the dog may not have deserved a beating let alone death, I think your judgment is too absolute. There certainly is some gray area here and beating an aggressive dog (defensless or not) to death at the time of an attack can be morally defensible.

In Pennsylvania, we put dogs down just for chasing farm animals and game animals. The animal cruelty statute requires the wilfull and malicious killing of an animal for the law to apply. If a dog attacks me absent provocation and in response to the attack I immediately kill it, I would not likely be charged with animal cruelty as the necessary wilful and malicious intent would not be present.

18

[quote] Tigerman wrote:

While I still think that in the present incident, the dog may not have deserved a beating let alone death, I think your judgment is too absolute. There certainly is some gray area here and beating an aggressive dog (defensless or not) to death at the time of an attack can be morally defensible.

In Pennsylvania, we put dogs down just for chasing farm animals and game animals. The animal cruelty statute requires the wilfull and malicious killing of an animal for the law to apply. If a dog attacks me absent provocation and in response to the attack I immediately kill it, I would not likely be charged with animal cruelty as the necessary wilful and malicious intent would not be present.[/quote]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

And my judgment is absolute only in the case we are discussing. Which is a small dog on a leash biting a drunken stranger who tried to pet him. Which is the incident DB and others said they would respond to with maximum violence.

Other incidents, sure, they may have a grey area. But not this one. Not if you are talking about beating the dog to death and tossing the body at the feet of the owner like you are some kind of wild gorilla. That’s lunacy. I can’t believe we are even discussing the rights and wrongs of this.

19

Just as an aside, the dog isn’t exactly small. Where are you getting your information? He’s no St Bernard, but he’s not a lap dog either. I give him a wide berth every time I encounter him…

20

Can’t really disagree with anyone here, except for the one who called me arrogant. And even then I don’t feel ‘right’ enough to make an argument of it.

OK, a few too many drinks and the dog didn’t know me. Lots of ‘might haves’ with regard to the dog. But, as Maoman later confirmed, this is an owner who doesn’t control or even socialise her dog. It isn’t little, btw, it’s pretty big.

Usually if a dog snaps because it has been surprised then I would give it the benefit of the doubt. If a dog is feeling threatened then it will usually give some warning before biting in ‘self-defense’. Not this one. Not a sound while one hand was extended slowly until it was close enough to bite.

My immediate response was to just walk away - with the intention of complaining to the management committee in the morning. But when the pain and the bleeding started I was not looking for revenge. I was looking for a clear agreement that if anyone was going to be hurting anyone it was going to be me doing the hurting. I was intent on ensuring that the dog never dared come near me again. I want it to turn tail, bark, snarl, and definitely not to stand there quietly waiting for me to get close enough to bite. If the dog can’t be taught to be nice to people it can be taught to warn people off.

Of course, I may be wrong. But I’m an animal too, I can only meet it on its own terms. You hurt me. You caused a rush of adrenalin. You gave me something to fear. You threatened the safe environment in which I live. Fight or flight, compete for dominance. This is nature, and I can’t sit down with the dog and discuss how this kind of behaviour is not helping anyone.

I can live my life in fear. Or I can re-assert myself so that I don’t run away screaming whenever I see a dog. I choose to live in a safe environment, but it won’t stay safe if nobody makes a fuss when dogs bite people.

Anyway, I made a fuss at the time but I would rather she learned to manage her dog than get into talk about putting dogs down and taking people to court. The hand is still painful, but I have regained full use of it and it’s obviously healing. It’s annoying, but no big deal. The owner came around with her husband the following night to apologise again and, as MM said, at least she does care. Hopefully by not being vindictive I can encourage her to take some positive action rather than having an ongoing situation. Apparently I’m an unreasonable optimist, but I can’t help it.

Occasionally I meet people who pull their kids away when they see a dog. They’re teaching their kids to be scared rather than cautious. They’re in a very small minority around here, and my dog is continually being approached by very small children - with their parents either nervously trying to say nothing or else actively encouraging them. A while back I met a lady who was absolutely terrified of dogs, and stood pressed against a tree but still pushed her kids to go and say hello. She recognised that her fear was not ‘right’ and wanted her kids to not have to suffer in the same way.

Generally, I think that there’s a very positive attitude towards dogs in my neck of the woods. I certainly don’t want to make sweeping negative generalisations about Taiwanese people or their attitudes.

But what if one of these kids meets a big dog that stands there quietly, but was once poked in the eye by a small kid and is going to rip the face off anyone that comes close enough?

So the thorny question to ask now that the dust has settled is: should dogs all be muzzled and chained so that no-one has to be afraid, or should people be encouraged to interact naturally and fearlessly with dogs so that they don’t create dogs that bite people without warning?