As one who lives at Lotus Hill with young kids, I’d like to know what color
the 2 dogs are so I can teach my kids to give them a wide berth.
The friendly one is a Lab?
Yes, a chocolate lab very similar to Gustav but bigger. He’s friendly, BUT completely untrained. He nips (not bites, really), he jumps around, and he doesn’t respond to his owner’s commands - how could he?
Example:
“No, Pudding! Come! Bad boy! Sit! No! No! Don’t run! Come here! Come to me! Stop! Down! No! Ok! Good boy!” I’m not joking.
What I love is when owners tell their dogs to “come” and then punish the for whatever naughty behaviour they had been engaging in before they came. You can just see the mental notes the dogs are making: “Right, when Boss-Lady says come, get the hell out of her way or she’ll hit you…”
Wrong. Nothing about a small dog. The dog is fairly large.
Now, while an adult human male may not be in mortal danger from a dog that attacks when not provoked, however, in a similar situation a small child could be severely injured, perhaps for life.
And I didn’t try to pet him. I reached out one hand slowly as I was taught to do as a kid. I gave the dog time to back away or warn me off. I didn’t make any sudden moves or come up on it from behind. I just extended my hand so that it could sniff and make up its mind whether to be friends or not.
Even dogs that have been mistreated will usually avoid trouble if they have the chance, and this one had the chance. It wasn’t backed into a corner or subject to any threat.
Actually, when I backed it into a corner later and it was genuinely scared - with good reason - it resorted to threatening noises and bared teeth. That kind of behaviour is not very sociable but at least it’s going to discourage people from coming close enough to get hurt. That’s the point where I let it go, btw. I’m not totally stupid.
Mucha Man, or Canada Man as you apparently are now. Imagine you press past one of those dogs you describe, and it makes a few holes in your leg. What would you do? I’m willing to bet that for most people who aren’t backed into a corner the response would be the same as it would be for any other animal. You would get out of harm’s way quickly.
And then? Would you think “Oh the poor untrained doggie! It’s my own fault for going running, after all a big animal running forward must seem very threatening.”
Or would you think “WTF!! Jeez! Look what you did to me, you fucker!! You need to learn to behave around people.” etc.
If the former then you’re obviously a more evolved human than I am. I’m just an animal that eats meat and reacts badly to being attacked without provocation. Are you going to condemn me for that?
If it was a little kid being bitten, and I just happened to be passing, my first reaction would be to get the kid out of danger. But right behind that would be a red rage that is an evolved response to threat. You can deal with the immediate danger, but the long-term threat is still there until someone deals with it. If the owner isn’t able to deal with it then our whole community is unsafe for everyone until that dog learns a lesson.
We all understand that intuitively without stopping to think about it in these situations. We don’t have time to process what is going on and ask how we can work with the owner to improve things. We don’t think about calling a lawyer at 3 in the morning. We turn around and fight to ensure that we can live safely, to defend our territory and (in my case, hypothetical) families.
That’s why many people kill snakes as soon as they see them. That’s why your dog-owning friends want to fight with you. They see a threat and react to it.
Of course, it’s not right or even very smart in the modern world. But it’s fairly normal behaviour for human beings. I would have thought that someone as smart as you would understand that.
So what would you have done? And don’t say “I wouldn’t pet a strange dog if I was drunk.” Give me an honest appraisal of how you would react if bitten without provocation.
[quote=“Loretta”]
So what would you have done? And don’t say “I wouldn’t pet a strange dog if I was drunk.” Give me an honest appraisal of how you would react if bitten without provocation.[/quote]
How the fuck did I become the baddie in this thread? I already wrote how pissed off I am with people and their dogs when I am out jogging or walking and they let them run at me. I’ve already mentioned that I almost got into a fight with a guy over the summer becasue he wouldn’t call his dog back. I’ve already written how inconsiderate dog owners are making me nervous around all strange unleashed dogs.
What would I do if bitten? Hit the dog or kick him hard until he backed away. I’ve done it before. I had a dog bite me my second month in Taiwan. Bit through and ruined a expensive pair of leather shoes, so yes, I was pissed and gave it a good boot. He ran a few meters away and did not come back near me so that was that.
I’ve been attacked unprovoked several times in my life, including when I was very young, so I do know how I handle this. Never once did I consider going after the dog once he was a distance from me. The owner yes, but never the dog. It would never occur to me to try to teach a dog a lesson. They’re just animals.
And I don’t think I’m unusual. I told you, my brother’s little girl was bitten in the face by a friend’s dog. It was put to sleep. No one bashed it to death. And my brother didn’t run over when he heard about it and demand satisfaction from the beast.
My sister and her dog were attacked by a pit bull less than a month ago. Her dog was badly injured but my sister was okay, only suffering bruises on her shins from kicking the dog. We were all steaming mad about this. But we went after the owners of the dog, not the dog itself. No one thought to rush over and beat the dog after the event.
There have been so many high profile dog attacks in the Vancouver area since I’ve been back that I’m quite familiar with what others do when attacked. I was listening to a radio call in program about dog attacks just the other day. Many people related their stories and not a single one expressed the out-of-control desire for revenge that you do. Most people are only too happy to get away from an attacking dog.
And that I think is key. You escaped but then went back after the dog. You went after the dog for revenge. You say “but it’s fairly normal behaviour for human beings.” Well, it’s not. If you think it is then there’s really nothing further we can discuss on this matter.
But I have a question for you. What would you do in my case if strange unleashed dogs kept running up to you, and occassionally jumping on you when you are out jogging?
Muzzling is probably too extreme, and as TM has argued, it puts a dog at a disadvantage should it need to defend itself and its owner from an attacker, whether from human or animal.
Leashing though should be mandatory in all public areas except in designated fenced in zones where everyone knows that the dogs will be off-leash. Your right to have a dog and desire him to run around free should never supercede another’s right to feel safe. maybe in some far off kingdom where no one is afraid of dogs and all dogs are well trained they can go free all the time but on earth we have to deal with real fears and real shitty training.
And how does encouraging people to deal with dogs fearlessly help with dog attacks? Like I said, I had dogs all my life, love them dearly, had no fear, but have, in the past 6 months, been made cautious and nervous by the ignorance and arrogance of “friendly” dog owners. I’m pissed off at this. I want to go back to just being happy when I see a dog. I can’t stand that I want to yell at people everytime I see them with a dog off a leash. I can’t stand that I’ve actually considered carrying pepper spray when I go jogging. I can’t stand that an activity that I do to relax me is now full of stress. I can’t stand that people who are being uncivil and breaking municipal by-laws look at me like I’m the one doing something wrong when I ask them to get their dog out of my face.
Can you garantee that your off-leash dog will never get startled and race at a jogger who is barrelling down on you on a small trail? Can you garantee that your dog won’t snap at a cyclist who passes silently? Can you garantee that your dog won’t jump on someone, even to be friendly? Can you garantee that your dog will never go senile, or deaf, or suffer from an injury that makes him snappish and ill-tempered? Can you garanttee that he won’t attack other off-leash dogs? Can you garantee that should someone ask you to leash your dog (and maybe ask in an unfriendly voice) that you won’t get defensive and accuse the person of having a problem?
If you can’t garantee all these things your dog shouldn’t be off leash.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]Can you garantee that your off-leash dog will never get startled and race at a jogger who is barrelling down on you on a small trail? Can you garantee that your dog won’t snap at a cyclist who passes silently? Can you garantee that your dog won’t jump on someone, even to be friendly? Can you garantee that your dog will never go senile, or deaf, or suffer from an injury that makes him snappish and ill-tempered? Can you garanttee that he won’t attack other off-leash dogs? Can you garantee that should someone ask you to leash your dog (and maybe ask in an unfriendly voice) that you won’t get defensive and accuse the person of having a problem?
If you can’t garantee all these things your dog shouldn’t be off leash.[/quote]
On that, you and I are in complete agreement.
[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]
Blah blah blah…
If you can’t garantee all these things your dog shouldn’t be off leash.[/quote]
On that, you and I are in complete agreement.[/quote]
Good to hear.
Two other points to consider on the leashing debate:
- dogs must be trained, and this is a lengthy process
- there are no universal standards of what constitutes a well-trained dog
Without some sort of standard that we all agreed upon as the minimum one must fulfill before releasing a dog into the public, dogs will always have various levels of training. How then can we garantee that new or ignorant (as in unknowing) dog owners will strive to reach the highest levels, or even understand that their is a level to attain? We can’t unless we want to license all dog ownership and have manditory training.
This of course will never happen. We will always have people who have never owned a dog before buying or adopting them. What will they do when they have seen dogs free all their life? Likely they will conclude that dogs are by nature well-behaved animals who pose no danger to humans and so can be unleashed from the start. And so without a word of training, their dogs are set free.
Similarly, a newbie owner (who at least knows a dog must be trained) may misjudged or underestimate just how long it takes to train a dog and release it before it is ready. Do we want take the risk that poorly or inadequately trained dogs are going to be running around off leash? I don’t.
Young frisky dogs (especially large ones) need to be leashed at least until they learn not to jump on people. But when is it really time to let the leash go? We see in Taiwan with human children that parents have very different ideas about what it means to let their children be free in public: some train their offspring, some let them run wild.
If we can’t get people to agree on a standard for children how can we hope to get an agreed upon standard for raising dogs? And even if we could established such standards how would we spread word of the standards and how would they be enforced? New or thoughtless dog owners ignorant of the standards will always be a threat. And since such a threat cannot be eliminated in a free society the best option is to require all dogs to be leashed when in public.
Leashing is non-subjective. Your dog’s off a leash, you are fined. Standards are by nature open to subjective interpretations. Do we really want society to be like Forumosa where dog owners can complain that the standards were applied to their dog (he growled at the little gilr) but not their neighbor’s dog (he growled at the old man)? 
I say both parties should be kept on a leash until they have been adequately socialized.
And neutered! 
:scooby:
(Must check for ID chips first, though - does loretta have one, do you know?)
Mmmmh, I’m still a moderator of this forum. Maybe I should flounder Maoman and Stray Dog, as a prelude to chasing them around with a big stick in my hand.
protects head