[quote=“Dragonbones”]Blueeee11, please use proper capitalization. Thank you.
DB, Moderator[/quote]
Aight. I will. Sorry for killing your eyes
Much obliged! 
[quote=“blueeee11”]to do that well, you need to have knowledge of the 1.local culture - how are you going to market effectively without knowing the local culture and norms?[/quote]A crash course in the basics and learning the local culture in a general sense is not all that difficult. Knowing the minutae is left up to the marketing dept., staffed with locals.
[quote=“blueeee11”]2.local language - how are you going to communicate with your staff or big business partners? how are you going to know the laws? how are you going to know how to optimize your supply chain?[/quote]Big business partners know English. Staff communication is done through proxies. Laws are taken care of by lawyers. And so on… Nothing new here; par for the course.
[quote=“blueeee11”]even an engineer in china would have to know Chinese. you dont suppose china writes its engineering codes,laws and parts in english do you…[/quote]Depends on the nature of work. An Chinese engineer that does R&D for a foreign company needs to speak at least passable English. Local codes and laws are typically irrelevant in these circumstances.
Alright, so you receive the marketing plan from your marketing department staffed with locals. Now you have to judge the feasibility of the marketing plan and decide whether to give the “go ahead”.
Without knowledge of the local culture how are you going to do that? Delegate for someone else to do it? You could. But ultimately, if things go wrong you have to answer to it. Wouldn’t it make sense to know at least enough of the culture and language to do your job well?
Yes. But once again, knowing the local culture and knowledge would reassure you so much more. It allows you to make better management deicisions rather than listening to this guy and that guy.
Knowing Chinese is definately an advantage in Chinese markets. It won’t guarantee success but it is an advantage. Not knowing Chinese is a handicap.
You see it everyday. Laowai who doesn’t speak Chinese or know the local culture enters China, sets up a factory, hires locals as managers. He thinks China is booming and he wants a peice of the cake. He naively thinks doing business in China is like doing business in the US or Europe. Something screws up, factory goes bust, huge losses are incurred. I have Chinese friends running business in China. There are plenty of stories about how they bully foreigners who are unfamiliar with the local language and culture. Most of them end up bust few months down the road.
In some countries like China, doing business is not as simple as it seems. It is a dog eat dog world out there.
Ach, certain types of Chinese people say that kind of stuff a lot. It’s just silly bluster and an ‘We Chinese are superior’ sort of stuff. It’s kind of cute in a way.
You mean they’re lying cheating scumbags? Nice friends you have. 
English has capitalization?
(Sorry, bad joke, but could not resist)
You mean they’re lying cheating scumbags? Nice friends you have. [/quote]
It is not about lying or cheating. You obviously haven’t done business in China before.
The issue, though, is what constitutes “knowing Chinese.”
If you can chat up the office ladies and find a restaurant on your own, that’s great, but it is not “knowing Chinese” to most of the people who are commenting that “knowing Chinese” won’t get you a job and/or isn’t a cost-effective investment to make.
Knowing Chinese to a professional level means being able to speak, understand, and read (writing is usually not required, or is minimal, in a practical sense) Chinese without difficult when dealing with a variety of technical and/or business fields related to your specialty. It means (if you want this foreigner to be your “cultural specialist”) being familiar with local dialects and fine nuances of meaning in speech and writing. It means being able to handle Chinese documents in a reasonably speedy manner. Those are not things that will happen after a year or two at the good ol’ MTC, and definitely not after four years of university-level study in the West, even majoring in Chinese (which leaves you without any other skills to get the job in the first place).
blueeee11, I don’t dispute that all things being equal, knowing the local culture and language is an advantage. How much of an advantage (or perceived advantage) is a different issue.
I’d say that the advantage is related to the industry in which you work and how far up the hierarchy you are. It’s been my experience the larger the corporation, the less this advantage becomes. Especially for ex-pat senior executives, it’s a nice to have but not a core requirement.
Ironlady laid out my thinking on “knowing Chinese” quite well, so I will not bother to expand on that point.
Actually, the head of MS$ China is an engineer with a PhD in Electrical Engineering… His name is Zhang Ya-qin His predecessor Lee Kai-fu was also an engineer, with a PhD in Computer Science from Carnegie Mellon. He left to become Google China’s boss.
the head of microsoft china wont be an engineer. he would be a management expert in charge of strategy and development, overall functioning of the company.
to do that well, you need to have knowledge of the 1.local culture - how are you going to market effectively without knowing the local culture and norms? 2.local language - how are you going to communicate with your staff or big business partners? how are you going to know the laws? how are you going to know how to optimize your supply chain?
even an engineer in china would have to know Chinese. you dont suppose china writes its engineering codes,laws and parts in english do you…[/quote]
[quote=“Feiren”]Actually, the head of MS$ China is an engineer with a PhD in Electrical Engineering… His name is Zhang Ya-qin His predecessor Lee Kai-fu was also an engineer, with a PhD in Computer Science from Carnegie Mellon. He left to become Google China’s boss.
the head of microsoft china wont be an engineer. he would be a management expert in charge of strategy and development, overall functioning of the company.
to do that well, you need to have knowledge of the 1.local culture - how are you going to market effectively without knowing the local culture and norms? 2.local language - how are you going to communicate with your staff or big business partners? how are you going to know the laws? how are you going to know how to optimize your supply chain?
even an engineer in china would have to know Chinese. you dont suppose china writes its engineering codes,laws and parts in english do you…[/quote][/quote]
Well they are both well versed with the Chinese culture aren’t they? I am going to go out on a limb and say both have extensive management experience as well.
I’d go out on a limb here and say ‘that’s because they are Chinese’.
Um, QED. :roflmao:
Ach, certain types of Chinese people say that kind of stuff a lot. It’s just silly bluster and an ‘We Chinese are superior’ sort of stuff. It’s kind of cute in a way.[/quote]
[quote=“Buttercup”]I’d go out on a limb here and say ‘that’s because they are Chinese’.
Um, QED. :roflmao:[/quote]
Lol. You can think the way you want. Old prejudices die hard.
Why thank you! I will. What old prejudices do you have?
You’re pointing out that a Chinese guy and a Taiwanese guy know a lot about Chinese culture. I’m just saying ‘No shit, Sherlock’. :roflmao:
You mean they’re lying cheating scumbags? Nice friends you have. [/quote]
It is not about lying or cheating. You obviously haven’t done business in China before.[/quote]
Wrong. Yet AGAIN! You’re on a roll.
SO your friends render foreigners bust in a few months by doing what, exactly? Not bullying, of course – your English obviously hasn’t quite grasped THAT particular nuance yet – so exactly WHAT honest thing is it they do involving their language that renders foreign businessmen bankrupt so quickly?
Plus, both those guys are CHINESE and one of the reasons they got their jobs, presumably, is their grasp of ENGLISH – you know? That language you claim the Taiwanese don’t need.
You should be on the TV! Comedy GOLD, my man! 
[quote=“sjcma”]blueeee11, I don’t dispute that all things being equal, knowing the local culture and language is an advantage. How much of an advantage (or perceived advantage) is a different issue.
I’d say that the advantage is related to the industry in which you work and how far up the hierarchy you are. It’s been my experience the larger the corporation, the less this advantage becomes. Especially for ex-pat senior executives, it’s a nice to have but not a core requirement.
Ironlady laid out my thinking on “knowing Chinese” quite well, so I will not bother to expand on that point.[/quote]
Chinese language got me into the finance sector at the ground floor, with little to no finance experience. I’ve since moved up, and while I oversee a team of translators, it’s less important on a daily basis, as I have native speakers to deal with the Chinese stuff. I manage the translators, not oversee their quality. However, it is still an asset for me, especially taking foreign clients out and about, company visits, socialising and the like. I can and do the occasional impromptu verbal translation, such as when a group of investors I’m ferrying around suddenly want to stop and ask a question, but I’d always prefer to have a good bilingual native Chinese speaker do that. Probably the bigger asset is understanding what’s going on around me in a Chinese milieu and being able to explain it to someone with little or no experience, or better yet, second guess what they might find odd or interesting.
HG
Not to burst your bubble HGC, but you got that job because you are hard working chap, clever enough to get the materials and have the interpersonal skills to do the job. The rest is just upside.
But I don’t things are a bleak as ironlady says, else I wouldn’t have gotten where I am. Business level fluency in spoken and written Mandarin is also not that difficult. I found it easier than French, which I failed at miserably despite starting from a very young age. What I will say is that language and cultural skills removes a significant barrier to getting the job, shows some commitment to the region and allows you to perform better once you do have the job.
However, that said, the window of opportunity for middle management and people starting out does seem to be closing as local labor pool gains the requisite work experience and skills.
Lastly, most reputable employers don’t really care what degree you got, as long as you got it at a decent school and did well getting it, (certain “professions” excepted). 
YMMV
I knew I shouldnt’ve read this thread - now my motivation for learning Chinese on the side has been reduced even more.
So maybe what we are saying is to replace
[quote=“Modest Mouse”]1. Move to Taiwan.
2. Learn Chinese.
3. ???
4. Profit.[/quote]
with the following ranking
[quote]1. Get a trade with good skills
2. Work damned hard - probably from the bottom
3. Get lucky
4. Get extra qualifications - MBA, Masters, PhD…
5. Network
6. Stay positive
7. Learn mandarin on the side[/quote]
Im doing 1-7 and still havent got 3 yet
_<
At least since my Mandarin learning is going at the rate of about 1 “shi-da book (Practical Audio Visual Chinese)” per year, I feel better about that now, on the back of just missing distinction on my first round of master’s exams, that caps off a good week
=D