What is your view on foreigners (and selected ABC’s) living in Taiwan AND being able to read characters…
Or do most of you kind of settle on knowing how to speak, and learn enough characters to order food, find the bathroom, etc.?
I have a very positive view of such foreigners…mainly because I happen to be one!
They’re freaks of nature that would do well in a traveling circus.
How do you feel about foreign students who study in the US AND can read English?
Kind of a weird question, to be honest, as if learning characters was much more difficult than learning individual words (spelling, meaning, syntax - possible prepositions, verb forms, adjectival forms, etc).
Really… people make such a a big deal out of it, but I don’t see much of a difference. If you wish to learn, know, and understand an English word, you must know all of that, in addition to X amount of characters.
Chinese makes it a bit easier - you just have 1 character (a simple/complex pattern that must be memorized), and a meaning. Not really harder, in my opinion.
So… I guess I see them as normal (People who don’t learn to read would be abnormal; people who neither learn to read nor speak would just be lazy idiots.) Granted, I can’t read 3,000+ characters yet, but I’m working my way there.
Yeah, I’m opening up a huge can of worms here. Do your worst.
It ain’t rocket science. Obviously. Which is good, because the ability to get through the Practical Audio Visual Chinese series never got anything into space.
If you have the time and inclination to study and will be in a Chinese speaking country long enough to make it worthwhile, why be illiterate? I’m not talking about translating legal docs or reading classical poems, unless you want to, but wouldn’t it be nice to read menus and shop names, and so on?
I don’t eat out much, a so reading a menu is not important but I like being able to read signs: this platform is temporarily out of use; please step closer to the urinal; etc.
[quote=“pheeb_s”]What is your view on foreigners (and selected ABC’s) living in Taiwan AND being able to read characters…
Or do most of you kind of settle on knowing how to speak, and learn enough characters to order food, find the bathroom, etc.?[/quote]
You’re asking two different things, and perhaps confusing them. First, how do we view this, and second, what do most of us settle for. These aren’t two mutually exclusive alternatives.
My answers: First, who wouldn’t view literacy positively? Second, in practice I think most do settle for some speaking ability with only limited literacy. There are other threads discussing why some don’t learn (either any Mandarin, or the writing)-- in terms of the difficulty, time constraints, personal motivation and so on. No need to rehash it all here again. Might want to read this thread first if you’re interested. Personally, I wouldn’t want to be illiterate in any society, and I would go to great lengths to learn the writing system, but that’s my personal choice. I understand that others have their own priorities.
i might be confused myself now…but i meant…
it’s easier to learn the language verbally but visually (characters) seems a lot harder, moreso for someone who isn’t exactly asian.
I just wondered if most foreigners in taiwan actually want to/try to learn the characters (beyond everyday life) or if they just settle on speaking it.
I guess most people can at least read menus and signs, and obviously speak mandarin.
[quote=“pheeb_s”]I might be confused myself now…but I meant…
it’s easier to learn the language verbally but visually (characters) seems a lot harder, moreso for someone who isn’t exactly Asian.
[/quote]
So, you believe that Asians are somehow genetically inclined to read Chinese characters moreso than Europeans/caucasians?
not genetically inclined but more of an acclimation to learning it because they were raised in the culture, like the kanjii aspect, the tones, etc. get what I mean? for example, compared to roman letters/abc’s.
I mean in NO WAY for that to be any nationality racist talk, I knew i had to explain a bit better than that :neutral:
Just an aside --The Chinese characters here are called just that; we don’t call them kanji unless the context is Japanese. As for whether foreigners here learn the script, well, a lot don’t even learn the spoken language, or learn only a tiny bit. Of those who do learn to speak a bit, most probably don’t really learn to read, or only learn a few characters, and aren’t even close to functionally literate. But you’ll get different answers depending on the crowd you ask – students who come here and enroll in Chinese classes, those who come here to teach and/or drink, and those who are here for other types of jobs. The ones who settle down and marry a local are more likely to learn a bit too. You’re going to get different numbers if you ask within the Learning Chinese forum, where people interested in learning the language hang out (we’re more likely to be at least semi-literate), versus asking in the Living in Taiwan or Open forum or in a sidewalk poll.
I’ll bet one or more existing polls on this can be dug up somewhere on the site. Has anyone got time to look?
Yep. I still remember how stoked I was one night many winters ago, riding around Yongho lost until I found the magic sign that said 福和橋
Interesting. Being able to read menus was a major motivating factor for me at one point, so I did nothing but study menus for a couple months. I even made photocopies of restaurant menus (or took those disposable paper ones that you write your order on), and ordered a different dish each time, taking notes of what each thing was. And it shows (20 kg later). 
[quote=“pheeb_s”]not genetically inclined but more of an acclimation to learning it because they were raised in the culture, like the kanjii aspect, the tones, etc. get what I mean? for example, compared to roman letters/abc’s.
I mean in NO WAY for that to be any nationality racist talk, I knew I had to explain a bit better than that :neutral:[/quote]
A Chinese character is just as arbitrary a symbol of a phoneme/semantic component as an English letter is of a phoneme/semantic component.
Is there anything “dog-like” or “doggy” about the symbol 狗? Perhaps it looks slightly like a dog, but it’s still completely arbitrary. Ask 5 people to draw a picture of a dog, and you’ll get 5 different drawings.
Similarly, in English, is there anything “dog-like” or “doggy” about the word “dog”? Does the serial of symbols “d,” “o,” and “g” have anything to do with a four-footed creature that likes to chew bones and chase cars? Do those 3 symbols, when put together, somehow “encompass” or “define” the object they refer to more than the symbol 狗?
How about the German word “der Hund”? How about the old English “dogca”?
No, not really. Hence, your thinking is slightly off. Asians do not learn Chinese characters more easily nor are they predisposed to learning them (aside from them learning them at a much younger age). Europeans and Americans do not learn Roman letters more easily than Asians for the same reasons - they are merely 2 different completely arbitrary systems for representing real-world objects. Learning as a youth and learning as an adult aside, the only reason they may be harder is because you think they are (supposed to be) harder. The sooner you realize that one system is just as arbitrary as the other, both systems have phonemic, semantic, and syntactic components, and each system has it’s own benefits and disadvantages, your Chinese learning will probably become much easier.
MPenguin, I’m pretty sure Pheebs is not talking about an inate ability. He is saying, I belive, that it’s easier for east asian non chinese speakers to pick up Chinese, particularly the writing. The Japanese obivously use Chinese characters everywhere in their daily life, so reading and writing Chinese is clearly easier to learn for them. Koreans also are very familiar with Chinese characters. I remember telling one of my Korean friends how excited I was that I had just learned my 100th character. He nonchalantly told me he knew over 600 that he learned in school. Korean menus use simple Chinese characters all the time (ie big, small, etc.) You also see them on buildings, signs, everywhere.
Learning a language that uses the Roman alphabet is also much easier for people whose first language uses the roman alphabet. You are familiar with the script and it’s just much easier. It was pretty easy for you to write the German word for dog, I wonder why you didn’t use the Russian word, or Arabic for that matter.
It seems obvious to me, that learning to write Chinese characters comes easier to people raised in an environment where those characters are used, regardless of whether or not it is your native tongue.
Which is exactly what I said - aside from learning it as a youth or learning it as an adult - there is no difference.
Apparently, so the research/Ph.D.s/experts say, it’s easier to learn languages when you are young. English, German, Hindi, Chinese - there’s no difference.
However, there’s no reason, really, for an adult to find it harder to learn Chinese. Let’s say I want to learn a new Chinese word.
I need to know:
- How to write it (a sequence of strokes)
- be able to recognize it (A sequence of strokes)
- It’s phonemic component (how to pronounce it)
- It’s semantic component (meaning)
- It’s syntactic component (Noun? Verb? Adjective?)
Now let’s say I want to learn a new English word. I need to know:
- How to write it (a sequence of strokes)
- be able to recognize it (A sequence of strokes)
- It’s phonemic component (how to pronounce it)
- It’s semantic component (meaning)
- It’s syntactic component (Noun? Verb? Adjective?)
They’re exactly the same. Both systems are completely arbitrary and both systems have the same components for learning/knowing a word/character/phrase. There really isn’t any difference between learning a new English word (or a word in whatever your native language might be) and learning a new Chinese character. There are different strokes, to be sure - the pattern/the symbol itself is different, but it’s still strokes.
Travel to New Guinea, find an indigenous tribe that has had no exposure to English or Chinese. Show them a Chinese character, like 了 and an English character, like H. They’ll probably think both are equally complex and mystifying - and they’d be right. Granted, if you use a Chinese character like 雞 and an H, they’ll say the 雞 is much more complex. How about if you show them 雞 and the word “chicken”?
So, yes, technically you and he are right - learning one or the other as a youth is easier. Learning either as an adult, though, simply takes an understanding that they both just as arbitrary as the other.
Not really. If you are really trying to make the argument that learning Chinese is just as difficult for an adult native speaker of English as is learning German, or Spanish, than I have to disagree man. And I’m pretty sure that’s not just my lone opinion. The US state Department trains adults to speak languages all the time. Chinese takes a solid 18 months before the diplomats are allowed to work, along with Arabic, Japanese, and Korean.
So, anyway, I hear what you’re saying, but you’re taking it to far. Yes, both writing systems are just strokes assembled together. But a writing system that uses the same symbols that you use will always be easier to learn compared to one that uses a completely different system.
[quote=“MPenguin”]
So, yes, technically you and he are right - learning one or the other as a youth is easier. Learning either as an adult, though, simply takes an understanding that they both just as arbitrary as the other.[/quote]
Learning one’s native language, or the languages one’s parents speak is easier when you are young. Although it’s good training for youngsters, learning a foreign language is much more difficult than for an adult because youngsters have much weaker/different cognitive abilities. Compare a kid’s English book with an adult’s. If the ‘younger is best’ junk peddled by cramschools were true, wouldn’t the books progress at the same pace, or faster?
Speak to a Taiwanese kid who’s done a lot of cramschool; fossilised mistakes, tiny vocabulary and endless L1 interference. They’d be better off out playing and do a really intensive program in their early teens. It’s a money making racket by people who know no better, or who just don’t care.
Give a British eight year old and a British 25 year old with no Chinese language background the same amount of tuition and the 25 year old will be light years ahead in Chinese within weeks. We only say ‘younger is better’ because we force kids to do stuff we want to do but are are too lazy to do as adults.
I’m no expert Buttercup, but I’m pretty sure the experts agree that learning any language is best done when you’re young. By the time you’re an adult, you’re brain is already wired for one language. It makes it tougher to really learn a new one. At least, this is what I’ve read, but you do make a good point about children’s cognitive abilities
Do some reading around; it’s nonsense for foreign languages. Very little modern research supports that. That’s not to say that language teaching to the young is a Bad Thing: teaching communication skills, social behaviour and perhaps more importantly, instilling an interest in and understanding of other cultures is a Good Thing. I just hate the stupid Asian cramschool nonsense which really gets kids nowhere, unless they are exceptionally intelligent and motivated. It’s a waste of life.
I’ve also taught thousands of adults and kids and seen it for myself.