Lebanon just the start?

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“Flipper”]
who do you have left on your side in beirut, miken? the pro-democracy students are waving us flags. the hardline America-haters are admitting Bush was right. I guess you still have the hezbollah pro-syria crowd who agrees with you about how horrible Bush is. :wink:[/quote]

However rotten they are, the Hezbollah pro-Syria crowd seem to be the vast majority in Lebanon,
and would win an election if one is actually held.

“Freedom will prevail in Lebanon”, Bush declared this week,
promising anti-Syrian protesters that the US is “on your side”. The
foreign secretary, Jack Straw, is expected to join the cheerleaders
for Arab democracy in a speech today and warn the left not to defend
the status quo because of anti-Americanism.

The first decisive rebuff to this fairy tale of spin was delivered in
Beirut on Tuesday, when at least 500,000 - some reports said it was
more like a million - demonstrators took to the streets to show
solidarity with embattled Syria and reject US and European
interference in Lebanon. Mobilised by Hizbullah, the Shia Islamist
movement, their numbers dwarfed the nearby anti-Syrian protesters by
perhaps 10 to one; and while the well-heeled Beiruti jeunesse dor

22

[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”]However rotten they are, the Hezbollah pro-Syria crowd seem to be the vast majority in Lebanon, and would win an election if one is actually held.

“Freedom will prevail in Lebanon”, Bush declared this week, promising anti-Syrian protesters that the US is “on your side”. The foreign secretary, Jack Straw, is expected to join the cheerleaders for Arab democracy in a speech today and warn the left not to defend the status quo because of anti-Americanism.

The first decisive rebuff to this fairy tale of spin was delivered in Beirut on Tuesday, when at least 500,000 - some reports said it was more like a million - demonstrators took to the streets to show solidarity with embattled Syria and reject US and European interference in Lebanon. Mobilised by Hizbullah, the Shia Islamist movement, their numbers dwarfed the nearby anti-Syrian protesters by perhaps 10 to one; and while the well-heeled Beiruti jeunesse dor

23

What is just as important as the full and unconditional withdrawal of Syrian troops AND all security & intelligence personnel is that U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559 also calls for the disarming of Hezbollah. How an atheist regime like the Baathists in Syria got together with a fundamentalist Islamic group like Hezbollah is beyond me, but they both have to go. Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are the three major threats to peace and stability in the Middle East right now. My preference would be to cut the leash on the Israelis and let them go after Hezbollah, but that would stir up a hornet’s nest.

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That’s just not true! Don’t you know that such an alliance is impossible?

At least that’s what they said about the chance of al Qaeda and Saddam’s regime cooperating… :wink:

25

rabid anti-bushers like the guardian are now reduced to hyping up hezbollah and discrediting as many pro-democracy demonstrators as possible.

look at the guardian article you linked:

“freedom will prevail in lebanon” is described as a “fairy tale of spin”.

not content with the 500k number, they cite spin from pro-hezbollah sources that it might have been a million! what a nice round number that is.

syria is occupying lebanon, but it is the us and eu who are accused of “interference in lebanon”.

pro-democracy demonstrators are derided as rich oppressors while the pro-hezbollah are the poor and helpless.

oh, those pro-democracy groups(some of them are murderers!!!) are horrible. hezbollah is a poor maligned political party.

those israelis are trying to spread influence!

you are NOT seeing democracy in the middle east. do not believe your eyes. all this is just an expansion of us military control!

this is the drivel coming out of anti-bush left these days. i wonder how people in egypt and syria who put their lives on the line to oppose government policies feels about how they are portrayed by the left wing press.

i love articles like this. it shows how low the anti-bush crowd has fallen.

26

[quote=“Flipper”]so jumblatt was a vicious America-hater. but now even he credits the us with helping to change the dynamic in lebanon.

what’s more impressive, the wall street journal trumpeting that Bush was right, or the independent suggesting that Bush might be right?

who do you have left on your side in beirut, miken? the pro-democracy students are waving us flags. the hardline America-haters are admitting Bush was right. I guess you still have the hezbollah pro-syria crowd who agrees with you about how horrible Bush is. :wink:[/quote]

Ummm, my side? Did I say anything about sides? Just for the record, I’ve been in support of Syrian troop withdrawals since about, oh, 1976- the year they went in- to attack the PLO, with full American and Israeli agreement.

The point is that it is naive in the extreme to view Walid Jumblatt as being a convert to , what, exactly- pro-democracy? Lebanon has been a democracy since 1943, not counting the decades of civil war .

As to the ‘pro-democracy’ crowds in Beirut- what does democracy mean? One-person, one-vote? I think you will find that your righteous democratic protestors would be very opposed to that concept, for the simple reason that the demographic shift over the last sixty years strongly favours the Muslims, particularly the Shi’ites- mass emigration by Christians, plus the propensity of poor rural people to have more babies.

If, you mean that hot babes should be the deciding factor in who gets to choose the government of Lebanon, that’s one thing,.
If you mean that actual democratic principles should rule, brace yourself for the fact that sometimes the bad guys are more popular.

Who is on my side? Nobody in particular, since I believe in freedom, democracy etc.,- but who is on the side of democracy and majority rule- the evidence so far clearly shows that it is the Shia plurality.

Watcha gonna do when they come for you?

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again, i don’t hold jumblatt up as some paragon of democratic ideals. but the very fact that even such a hardcore anti-american voice recognizes that the us role in what’s going on now is significant.

[quote]As to the ‘pro-democracy’ crowds in Beirut- what does democracy mean? One-person, one-vote? I think you will find that your righteous democratic protestors would be very opposed to that concept, for the simple reason that the demographic shift over the last sixty years strongly favours the Muslims, particularly the Shi’ites- mass emigration by Christians, plus the propensity of poor rural people to have more babies.

If, you mean that hot babes should be the deciding factor in who gets to choose the government of Lebanon, that’s one thing,.
If you mean that actual democratic principles should rule, brace yourself for the fact that sometimes the bad guys are more popular.

Who is on my side? Nobody in particular, since I believe in freedom, democracy etc.,- but who is on the side of democracy and majority rule- the evidence so far clearly shows that it is the Shia plurality.

Watcha gonna do when they come for you?[/quote]

i love it when liberals talk down democracy. they sound positively reactionary!

i also love how you trash talk the democracy demonstrators. pure class right there. :notworthy:

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If Hezbollah gains too much power/control in Lebanon, the Israelis will make short work of them. A few carefully placed car bombs and targeted strikes from their Predator drones with Hellfire missles will quickly take the wind out of the sails of the Hezbollah hierarchy. As usual, the international community will bitch and moan, but in the end reaching a peace agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians is more important for everyone and for stability in the Middle East. Why do you think we’ve supported Israel for so many years and equipped and trained them to be one of the most effective, well-trained, and viscious militaries in the world? It’s to provide a balance of power in the Middle East, of course, and to do the things that the United States can’t do publicly. duh …

By the way, why is it that the EU are always coming down so hard on the Israelis? Is it because they really are so greedy and out of control and ruining the lives of so many people (terrorists)? It’s the long history of anti-Semitism in Europe (and it’s never been limited to just Germany). It’s the dark side of European society that people don’t want to talk about and just try to wipe under the rug. It’s not PC to talk about that, but it’s still there. It was there long before Hitler came around, and it’s ignorant to think that it just ended with World War II.

29

I have yet to encounter a supporter of Israel who doesn’t preach liberty and democracy out of one side of their mouth and whisper ethnic cleansing and permanent second-class citizenship under occupation out of the other – depending upon which way the compass is pointing.

Then rotely accuse anyone who points out this contradiction as anti-semitic.

Hypocrisy compounded by demagoguery. This as much as the rabid religious extremism of the Muslim side is why the problems in the Middle East are so intractable.

30

[quote=“spook”]I have yet to encounter a supporter of Israel who doesn’t preach liberty and democracy out of one side of their mouth and whisper ethnic cleansing and permanent second-class citizenship under occupation out of the other – depending upon which way the compass is pointing.

Then rotely accuse anyone who points out this contradiction as anti-semitic.

Hypocrisy compounded by demagoguery. This as much as the rabid religious extremism of the Muslim side is why the problems in the Middle East are so intractable.[/quote]

George W. Bush is a supporter of Israel who does preach liberty and democracy on the one hand and shouts against ethnic cleansing and permanent second-class citizenship under occupation on the other – regardless of which way the compass is pointing.

That’s because W doesn’t buy into the pessimistic notion that the problem is intractable.

:slight_smile:

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If Hezbollah gains too much power/control in Lebanon, the Israelis will make short work of them. A few carefully placed car bombs and targeted strikes from their Predator drones with Hellfire missles will quickly take the wind out of the sails of the Hezbollah hierarchy.
.[/quote]

Like they so successfully did in the period from the 1982 invasion to their withdrawal in 2000? This was the time in which Hezbullah was born, grew, and took over from Amal as the leading Shi’ite party, largely because they kept fighting Israel in spite of car bombs and air and missile attacks.

You think Israel has been playing patty-cake over the last twenty years?

As for democracy in Lebanon, sounds like great idea- how about starting with a census?

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[color=blue]Talking the talk:[/color]
"As progress is made toward peace, settlement activity in the occupied territories must end. . .

America is committed, and I am personally committed, to implementing our road map toward peace. Our efforts are guided by clear principles: We believe that all people in the Middle East – Arab and Israeli alike – deserve to live in dignity, under free and honest governments.
whitehouse.gov/news/releases … 314-4.html

[color=blue]Whispering the walk:[/color]
". . . the Bush administration failed to pressure Israel to cut back Jewish settlement activity in Palestinian areas – a requirement of the road map – or improve the lives of Palestinians restricted by checkpoints and other security measures they see as humiliating.

"The most important failure was the [Bush] administration’s unwillingness to deal with the issue of continued settlement activity, which not only continued but intensified. . . .

"Had the U.S. leaned on Israel, had it pressured Israel into simply abiding by the guidelines that President Bush himself set out [in the road map], I don’t think we would be here today . . .

. . . even analyst Max Abrahms of the strongly pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy agrees. “The Sharon government really never took any strong steps against the settlers,” . . . and certainly the U.S. government didn’t pressure him to do so."
globalsecurity.org/military/ … 154928.htm

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[quote=“MikeN”]Like they so successfully did in the period from the 1982 invasion to their withdrawal in 2000? This was the time in which Hezbullah was born, grew, and took over from Amal as the leading Shi’ite party, largely because they kept fighting Israel in spite of car bombs and air and missile attacks.

You think Israel has been playing patty-cake over the last twenty years?
[/quote]

They didn’t have the technology back then like they do now (i.e. the Predator drones armed w/ Hellfire missles … and they didn’t have someone like Ariel Sharon who has a set of balls. I still say cut them loose and let them go medieval on Hezbollah.

34

A wise solution to the world’s problems – stoking the flames of medieval religious warfare – given that it was such a flaming success for humankind in the past.

You might want to take a moment or two to review a history book first though to see all the possible outcomes before putting such blind faith in Predator drone and Hellfire missile technology as the keys to world peace.

35

[quote=“spook”]A wise solution to the world’s problems – stoking the flames of medieval religious warfare – given that it was such a flaming success for humankind in the past.

You might want to take a moment or two to review a history book first though to see all the possible outcomes before putting such blind faith in Predator drone and Hellfire missile technology as the keys to world peace.[/quote]

I beleive that the Lebonese are fed up with the de facto rulers like Hezbollah. They are fed up with being told what to believe from organizations that have no resect for human rights and freedom. Popular uprisings by civilians against these gangsters is starting to take place imho.

36

Flag-waving protesters flood Beirut in massive anti-Syrian rally
on 14 March 2005

[quote]BEIRUT (AP) - Hundreds of thousands of opposition demonstrators chanted “Freedom, sovereignty, independence” and unfurled a huge Lebanese flag in Beirut on Monday, the biggest protest yet in the opposition’s duel of street rallies with supporters of the Damascus-backed government.

Crowds of men, women and children flooded Martyrs Square, spilling over into nearby streets, while more from across the country packed the roads into Beirut - responding to an opposition call to demonstrate for the removal of Syrian troops from Lebanon.[/quote]

The genie is definitely out of the bottle. Let’s hope its a peace-loving genie.

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:bravo:

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Wow!

[quote=“The Grateful Dead in Liberty”]
Say what I mean and I don’t give a damn
I do believe and I am who I am
Hey now Mama come and take my hand
Whole lotta shakin’ all over this land

If I was an eagle I’d dress like a duck
Crawl like a lizard and honk like a truck
If I get a notion I’ll climb this tree
or chop it down and you can’t stop me
Chop it down and you can’t stop me

Ooo, freedom
Ooo, liberty
Ooo, leave me alone
To find my own way home
To find my own way home
[/quote]

39

pretty impressive demonstration they had there. all the more impressive because lebanon has about the same population as connecticut. :astonished:

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[quote=“hexuan”]
[/quote]

[quote=“Van Morrison”]You can’t stop us on the road to freedom
You can’t keep us 'cause our eyes can see…[/quote]