LEGAL way to work with local artists/producers/talent?

Hi everyone!

I’m a 32 year old Dutch music producer/composer/sound designer. I plan to go to Taiwan in about three months in the hope to, through extensive local networking with local producers and artists, find a way to make a living an extend my work area to Eastern Asia.

I have been researching the possibilities of finding work, but cannot figure out the following:

As I understand a foreigner cannot freelance in Taiwan, and therefore needs a working permit which is solely related to the single job it is given out for. I cannot figure out though what this means if I would want to work with local artists, producers, and composers… Would they need to hire me and pay me a salary in order for me to legalise any collaboration I would want to start? I don’t see something like that functioning these days.

I’m a bit lost with the whole “there is no freelancing” concept, as I would expect that at least Taiwanese artists are able to freelance (or anything of sorts), and I don’t see any way of starting any meaningful work with them if I cannot fall under some kind of similar umbrella as they do. A group of local talent would normally join forces, great a project, for example write and record an album, which would in turn start to be more lucrative the more successful said project would be. Income could come out of online and physical music sales, performance royalties, merchandise, and so on.

I hope I explained it well enough to make any sense.

Some background:

I have a Master in Music Production and Composition (Conservatory) and have been producing records and performing for years in several European, Central and South American countries. I don’t speak Mandarin, but am an efficient and focused learner and will be tackling that hurdle as soon as I can make a start in Taipei.

P.S. I am looking for a perfectly legal way to work in Taiwan, please refrain from any posts suggesting the opposite.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this message. I would love for any response.

All the best.

Dikkie

[quote=“Dikkiedik”]I have been researching the possibilities of finding work, but cannot figure out the following:

As I understand it, a foreigner cannot freelance in Taiwan, and therefore needs a working permit which is solely related to the single job it is given out for. I cannot figure out though what this means if I would want to work with local artists, producers, and composers… Would they need to hire me and pay me a salary in order for me to legalise any collaboration I would want to start? I don’t see something like that functioning these days. [/quote]

I don’t claim to be an authority on this subject; however, I am a musician (non-working) and have some friends who were/are in the music scene. I’m also a permanent resident and holder of an open work permit.

In order for a foreigner to legally work in Taiwan, they must be hired by a local company, who in turn sponsors their ARC (Alien Resident Certificate) and work permit. These are indelibly tied together. There are a host of contingencies that go along with this, not the least of which is that (for the most part) the foreigner must be hired to do a job which a local (theoretically) is not qualified to do, i.e. native English speaking teacher.

In your case, you would have to be hired by a local production company/music studio who can prove that you have skills that locals do not. Personally, I have never heard of anyone doing this, but maybe it’s possible. I’m hoping that by getting the ball rolling here that others will chime in with alternative suggestions. As far as I can tell, your music production skills would not qualify as something a local can’t do.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that local talent could not legally hire you to do anything, let alone produce their work, without going through all the bureaucratic channels.

There is no legal freelancing for foreigners. End of story. Not until you get an open work permit, which comes with an APRC (Permanent Residency) and five or more years working on the island. Locals can freelance all they want - legally? I dunno. But they do. Your ideas of working with locals is all very well and nice, but legally, it isn’t possible. Meanwhile, there is the dodgy subject of some weird performance permit that you might have to deal with as well. There are threads on this topic. It’s far too much of a pain in the ass for me to deal with. I’ve played out “illegally” a few times and never had an issue.

Do that before you get here, if you’re really going to come.

As you wish, but here’s where I jump off. I know that there is a healthy number of expat musicians who read this forum and might have suggestions for you. Maybe it’s entirely possible. But I do know this: You can’t legally come to Taiwan and set up shop as an independent producer. You wouldn’t be providing a service or skill that people here don’t already have.

Meanwhile, from this vantage point, my question is: Why would you want to come to Taiwan in the first place? Do you know anything about the music scene (or general lack thereof)? Do you have any idea what place music has in society? That would be something to investigate. There is certainly a music scene here; it’s just…not…like…important or relevant to the vast majority of people.

[EDIT] There is a way you could come over and do this, but it requires a boatload of money and a special ARC program which I know nothing about. It’s tied to investment or business. Someone please chime in an explain this.

There are two common routes to open work rights:

  1. get an APRC by working for 5 years like super_lucky
  2. get a JFRV by marrying a local

The other way to become a PR is through investment. It’s mentioned in a thread somewhere, and it’s on the NIA’s website if I’m not mistaken. There are other routes:

  1. get a WHV (working holiday visa aka youth mobility visa)

You need to have the right nationality and be under 31 or 36 depending on which nationality it is. The work rights last for no more than 1 year, and for some nationalities there’s a limit of 3 or 6 months per employer.

There’s also some kind of government-arranged short-term automatic work permit that you probably can’t get without knowing the right people. Then there are things similar to becoming a PR, like becoming an approved refugee. Of course there’s also

  1. become a citizen

If you get a work permit the normal way (i.e. also get an ARC), you need to find a company that can get permission to hire you to do “specialized or technical work”; “religious, artistic, and show business work”; or work that has special authorization by the government. You also need to prove your skills to the government. I doubt you would find one that would give you the kind of freedom you want, but you should talk to people who move in the right circles. There are some showbiz people on Forumosa.

[quote=“super_lucky”][quote=“Dikkiedik”]I have been researching the possibilities of finding work, but cannot figure out the following:

As I understand it, a foreigner cannot freelance in Taiwan, and therefore needs a working permit which is solely related to the single job it is given out for. I cannot figure out though what this means if I would want to work with local artists, producers, and composers… Would they need to hire me and pay me a salary in order for me to legalise any collaboration I would want to start? I don’t see something like that functioning these days. [/quote]

I don’t claim to be an authority on this subject; however, I am a musician (non-working) and have some friends who were/are in the music scene. I’m also a permanent resident and holder of an open work permit.

In order for a foreigner to legally work in Taiwan, they must be hired by a local company, who in turn sponsors their ARC (Alien Resident Certificate) and work permit. These are indelibly tied together. There are a host of contingencies that go along with this, not the least of which is that (for the most part) the foreigner must be hired to do a job which a local (theoretically) is not qualified to do, i.e. native English speaking teacher.

In your case, you would have to be hired by a local production company/music studio who can prove that you have skills that locals do not. Personally, I have never heard of anyone doing this, but maybe it’s possible. I’m hoping that by getting the ball rolling here that others will chime in with alternative suggestions. As far as I can tell, your music production skills would not qualify as something a local can’t do.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that local talent could not legally hire you to do anything, let alone produce their work, without going through all the bureaucratic channels.

There is no legal freelancing for foreigners. End of story. Not until you get an open work permit, which comes with an APRC (Permanent Residency) and five or more years working on the island. Locals can freelance all they want - legally? I dunno. But they do. Your ideas of working with locals is all very well and nice, but legally, it isn’t possible. Meanwhile, there is the dodgy subject of some weird performance permit that you might have to deal with as well. There are threads on this topic. It’s far too much of a pain in the ass for me to deal with. I’ve played out “illegally” a few times and never had an issue.

Do that before you get here, if you’re really going to come.

As you wish, but here’s where I jump off. I know that there is a healthy number of expat musicians who read this forum and might have suggestions for you. Maybe it’s entirely possible. But I do know this: You can’t legally come to Taiwan and set up shop as an independent producer. You wouldn’t be providing a service or skill that people here don’t already have.

Meanwhile, from this vantage point, my question is: Why would you want to come to Taiwan in the first place? Do you know anything about the music scene (or general lack thereof)? Do you have any idea what place music has in society? That would be something to investigate. There is certainly a music scene here; it’s just…not…like…important or relevant to the vast majority of people.

[EDIT] There is a way you could come over and do this, but it requires a boatload of money and a special ARC program which I know nothing about. It’s tied to investment or business. Someone please chime in an explain this.[/quote]

All of the above.
Plus:
[ul]Local performers (ROC passport holders) who “freelance”, all basically do so as small business entities, they’re registered and have a tax number, under the table stuff happens, but nobody who’s making a living risks too much of it, it’s too easy to get caught (or ratted out)
Accordingly, the people paying them (pretty much agencies, nobody hires anybody outside an agency) are also business entities, registered and with a tax number
The entertainment business here is insanely small and incestuous, locals who have a proven track record are fighting hard enough for the limited amount of exposure available, nobody is even remotely interested in dealing with outsiders (even if they end up being able to work legally) with questionable communication skills, no experience in the (very unique) local way of doing things, and a complete lack of connections, which are, as is known, crucial
For all but the very very top tier performers, financial remuneration is scandalously low (or even, for those starting out, non-existent, Pay to Play is a total thing here)[/ul]

Sorry, I don’t mean to be a dick (it just comes natural), these are just the facts.
You said:

That’s because, well, there isn’t one.

As super_lucky has explained, you can’t freelance in Taiwan unless you have a work permit (or are exempted) because you are a permanent resident, the spouse of a Taiwanese citizen, or a student (16 hours/week). Taiwanese can freelance all they want but the work permit/residence system is set up so foreigners can’t do it without a company.

To do what you want to do and be completely legal, you would probably need to set up a local company and hire yourself as an employee. This requires an initial investment of NT$5 million. I think you could qualify for an employee work permit as an artist with your credentials. Your company would then contract with the Taiwanese artists.

To be semi-legal, you would need to set up a local company and serve as its manager. You would need an initial investment of NT$500,000 for this. Note that you would have a work permit to work as a manager not as an employee artist. This might not allow you to do hands on work though.

You might also be able to qualify for the Entrepreneur Visa (see the Taiwan Bureau of Consular Affairs website) but you would still need to set up a company with a minimum investment of NT$1 million. There are reasons to do this though but you would still not have a work permit to work as an artist. You would be a manager.

It’s really difficult if not impossible to do what you want to do in Taiwan 100% legally. Taiwan requires some tolerance for grey areas. If you are not ready for this, you are probably not ready for Taiwan. I hasten to add that Taiwan has laws and you should follow them. This is not Cambodia or the PRC where you can be a cowboy. But neither is it Holland.

Sorry, I forgot about the working holiday–that’s another way to have an ‘open work permit’ that would allow you to do what you want to do for one year. Unfortunately, the Netherlands does not appear to be on the list. boca.gov.tw/lp.asp?ctNode=78 … DSD=7&mp=2

I’m sorry about this unfortunate situation. Taiwan makes it tough to be a creative person here. See Forward Taiwan.

First of all, thanks for the replies! I really appreciate it.

[quote]The foreigner must be hired to do a job which a local (theoretically) is not qualified to do, i.e. native English speaking teacher.
In your case, you would have to be hired by a local production company/music studio who can prove that you have skills that locals do not.
[/quote]

Yes, that, with the globalization of the last 10 years, will be a harder and harder thing to do. Maybe I could convince them it is a good thing to let some international producers in to get the scene a bit more connected to the mainland, Korea, Singapore and Japan :wink:. I’m not entirely joking, for the most part I would be trying to set up projects with a versatile group of local and international people.

Valid points. I am in the process of reaching out to a lot of people, and like all in life, there’s a plethora of viewpoints supporting everyone’s different claims. My experience until now in life is that any city that has at least the amount of people in it as Taipei cannot be an excuse for any entertainment freelancer not be able to make it. What will be easy in one place will be hard as *** in the other. All lovely places in the world should theoretically merge together into one big utopia. They don’t. That’s why I travel. That’s why I move. It would be easier to stay in Europe, but every couple of years I just feel that I need to get out there and start the process over again. This is as much part of my life as the music is. Can’t separate them. If you want I would be very interested to hear from you how the music scene, and general lack thereof, is!

[quote]
Local performers (ROC passport holders) who “freelance”, all basically do so as small business entities, they’re registered and have a tax number, under the table stuff happens, but nobody who’s making a living risks too much of it, it’s too easy to get caught (or ratted out)
Accordingly, the people paying them (pretty much agencies, nobody hires anybody outside an agency) are also business entities, registered and with a tax number[/quote]

I am registered as freelancer in Europe and have a tax number. Mostly this means that I don’t charge any V.A.T., which is transferred to the company that hires me. That money is payed by them to their country. I pay taxes on my yearly income in the Netherlands. Both lands get their part. Too bad that that doesn’t work in (East) Asia.

Just a hypothetical question. If I would be in Taiwan, and produce some tracks for myself selling them online and/or in long distance collaborations, I would theoretically still be doing something illegal, right? Even if I’m more than happy to pay taxes on it. What about cumulative revenue from all releases I have on Itunes and so on? Royalties from former endeavors? You see why this thing has me scratching my head a bit?

[quote]
The entertainment business here is insanely small and incestuous, locals who have a proven track record are fighting hard enough for the limited amount of exposure available, nobody is even remotely interested in dealing with outsiders (even if they end up being able to work legally) with questionable communication skills, no experience in the (very unique) local way of doing things, and a complete lack of connections, which are, as is known, crucial.
For all but the very very top tier performers, financial remuneration is scandalously low (or even, for those starting out, non-existent, Pay to Play is a total thing here) I don’t mean to be a dick, these are just the facts.[/quote]

All fair. I ask for an opinion and I get one! Better this than sugarcoating. But to be serious there won’t be that many places in the world where the entertainment business does not principally functions this way. Any country, any city, you have to learn the rules, idiosyncrasies, make connections and work your way into a thing where money is scarce and people are preying on an opening. Could I ask you what would be the top ten cities to turn to in this field, worldwide? Just curious what your thoughts are!

Could you elaborate? This work permit being a student still doesn’t give you the right to freelance, right? Maybe I read this sentence wrong but I felt like it implied it.

NT$5 million is not something I have lying around no… :unamused:

Again, thanks everyone for chiming in. I’m still in it to find out what eventually will be possible. Any comments towards this plan, advice, critics, please feel free to tell me what you think!

Having a work permit as a student effectively allows you to freelance for up to 16 hours a week.

[quote]
If I would be in Taiwan, and produce some tracks for myself selling them online and/or in long distance collaborations, I would theoretically still be doing something illegal, right? Even if I’m more than happy to pay taxes on it.[/quote]

A foreigner must have a work permit to do any work of any kind in Taiwan, paid, or unpaid. Producing tracks for yourself would be work and therefore unlawful unless you had a work permit. It has nothing to do with whether you pay taxes. Plenty of foreigners in Taiwan work over the internet illegally and manage to get paid without ever being detected. Note that Taiwan has fairly archaic banking rules. You may have some trouble collecting your money or linking accounts the way you do in other countries. There was a long thread about this a while ago. I’m not sure if it is still a problem or not.

Collecting royalties from tracks already online or from past projects would be fine. In that case, you would just need to figure out a way to stay in Taiwan unless you can afford frequent visa runs to nearby cities such as Hong Kong.

Good luck! Hope you make it to Taiwan. Why not Japan? Much larger market etc? I prefer Taiwan myself, but just curious.

Good to know, will look into that.

[quote]
Collecting royalties from tracks already online or from past projects would be fine. In that case, you would just need to figure out a way to stay in Taiwan unless you can afford frequent visa runs to nearby cities such as Hong Kong.[/quote]

Passive income would be the best way to go internationally anyway it seems :wink:.

I have been in japan before, about six months. I really liked it. Great (hidden) underground scene too in Tokyo, I’m just drifting to a little more southern flavored metropoles the last years. I tend to click better in the warmer (sub) tropic countries. whether it’s my attitude that changes or the street life and way people seem more open to connect to I don’t know. (lived in Rio de Janeiro, Mexico City, Cebu City and Johannesburg before). Maybe it somehow reminds me too much of home if it’s not that way? Greyish, colder, people more segregated in their homes doing their thing? I’m overly generalizing here. It’s what you make out of it of course. But it tends to motivate me more somehow.

You prefer Taiwan in general, or for “making it” :slight_smile:?

In general language is a big motivator for me too, in the sense that if I learn something I want it to be worth something in the longer run. I hope to go somewhere where a language to me seems worth learning (that would probably mean Chinese, Russian, Japanese, (Korean), Arabic…). Well, with Russian I’m locked out of the sub tropical parts of the world :wink:, and I guess the Arabic world is too messed up at the moment to be doing something for me (I used to make documentaries too, but am really focusing on the music right now), so I am drawn to East Asia.

Bump! Anyone still want to give their thoughts?

Paging Feiren

I’m keenly interested in this too, because now I no longer reside in Taiwan yet hope to continue providing translation services to Taiwanese clients. It seems I should be able to do this – they just report the expenditures as they do when working with a foreign firm. Why would the situation be any different for someone who is simply visiting Taiwan and providing the same service?

For example, if I am a legal consultant based in the US, I can give a consultation to a Taiwanese firm with no problems; but if I am a legal consultant who is visiting Taiwan on a visitor’s visa, and during that trip I do some consulting, this is technically illegal? I don’t understand how that makes sense.

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Paging Feiren

I’m keenly interested in this too, because now I no longer reside in Taiwan yet hope to continue providing translation services to Taiwanese clients. It seems I should be able to do this – they just report the expenditures as they do when working with a foreign firm. Why would the situation be any different for someone who is simply visiting Taiwan and providing the same service?

For example, if I am a legal consultant based in the US, I can give a consultation to a Taiwanese firm with no problems; but if I am a legal consultant who is visiting Taiwan on a visitor’s visa, and during that trip I do some consulting, this is technically illegal? I don’t understand how that makes sense.[/quote]
I think it “makes sense” in the sense that most country’s immigration laws haven’t caught up with the realities of the 21st century yet. :frowning:

In your position I would look into Article 5 of the Regulations on the Permission and Administration of the Employment of Foreign Workers.

This limit applies only when your school is in session. During summer and winter breaks, there’s no limit.

There are some requirements, like not being financially secure :eh:
Check Chapter V (Articles 30-35) of the Regulations mentioned above. law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawA … e=N0090027

[quote]Having a work permit as a student effectively allows you to freelance for up to 16 hours a week.

This limit applies only when your school is in session. During summer and winter breaks, there’s no limit.

There are some requirements, like not being financially secure :eh:
Check Chapter V (Articles 30-35) of the Regulations mentioned above. law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/LawClass/LawA … e=N0090027[/quote]

So, if one studies at a state recognized university one can do limited freelancing of one’s own choosing on the side, if you can show that you are in need of finances? I would need to learn Mandarin anyway, so that can be synchronized. Or is this linked to only complete studies, and not just a language?

This is exactly how I feel. I understand that that always develops slower, but being in a field where there is hardly anyone making a living for a company (90% of my colleagues are freelancers) I hope that the world catches up a bit. I’m not talking about being able to sip a martini while resting on the beach doing some laptop work here. I’m talking about serious commitment to work with, and for the country you choose to reside in, whilst starting collaborations that span several countries.

[quote=“Dikkiedik”]So, if one studies at a state recognized university one can do limited freelancing of one’s own choosing on the side, if you can show that you are in need of finances? I would need to learn Mandarin anyway, so that can be synchronized. Or is this linked to only complete studies, and not just a language?
[/quote]
Afaik pure language study is okay a la Article 31:

Should a foreign student as referred to in Article 30 been officially enrolled in a school to take courses for 1 semester or more in a division, department or graduate institute thereof or to take language course(s) for one year or more, and should the school where he/she is enrolled in acknowledge the existence of any of the following factual situations, the said foreign student may engage in jobs relevant to the course(s) he/she has take and the language he/she has learned:

I think there’s a thread somewhere that says you need to make sure your school is on the approved list.

I’ve done this. If it’s a language school, you need to be there a whole year before you can part-time. If it’s a degree program, a semester. I actually went to grad school just so that I could legally accept a job I was offered – not a route I’d recommend, though I ended up extremely interested in the area I studied, so everything turned out alright.

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Paging Feiren

I’m keenly interested in this too, because now I no longer reside in Taiwan yet hope to continue providing translation services to Taiwanese clients. It seems I should be able to do this – they just report the expenditures as they do when working with a foreign firm. Why would the situation be any different for someone who is simply visiting Taiwan and providing the same service?

For example, if I am a legal consultant based in the US, I can give a consultation to a Taiwanese firm with no problems; but if I am a legal consultant who is visiting Taiwan on a visitor’s visa, and during that trip I do some consulting, this is technically illegal? I don’t understand how that makes sense.[/quote]

If a foreigner is physically in Taiwan and providing services to anyone, the foreigner is working. A foreigner cannot work in Taiwan without permission from the Ministry of Labor. When you are physically in the US and providing services to a Taiwanese client, you are working in the US and you are subject to US employment law. When you are physically in Taiwan and providing services, you are subject to Taiwanese employment law. We live in a world where borders matter less than they did, but laws governing employment and the movement of people are still very firmly rooted in the old world of nation states. They are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

[quote=“yyy”][quote=“Dikkiedik”]So, if one studies at a state recognized university one can do limited freelancing of one’s own choosing on the side, if you can show that you are in need of finances? I would need to learn Mandarin anyway, so that can be synchronized. Or is this linked to only complete studies, and not just a language?
[/quote]
Afaik pure language study is okay a la Article 31:

Should a foreign student as referred to in Article 30 been officially enrolled in a school to take courses for 1 semester or more in a division, department or graduate institute thereof or to take language course(s) for one year or more, and should the school where he/she is enrolled in acknowledge the existence of any of the following factual situations, the said foreign student may engage in jobs relevant to the course(s) he/she has take and the language he/she has learned:

I think there’s a thread somewhere that says you need to make sure your school is on the approved list.[/quote]

Note that the English version of Article 31 is not current. See the Chinese version. A school may permit a student who demonstrates need to work when he enrolls. I’m not sure that all schools will actually permit this and I know that some schools restrict students to working on campus.

So basically any business meeting that occurs in Taiwan is technically illegal???

OK, how’s this as a hypothetical: My boss and I were traveling in Taiwan (him on business, me on vacation) and he had to have a meeting that he wanted me to call into so I could take notes. I did that from a hotel in Nantou while he was in Taichung. Is that technically violating the law?

What about, let’s say, foriegn body guards for visiting celebrities? Does each body guard need a work permit?

Why wouldn’t you be traveling on business as well?