And when did the Chinese move into Manchuria, Zeg?
Look below for that sort of thing. This you could have easily googled yourself.
http://huhai.myrice.com/map/map.htm
First, you better believe I am going to call out any China-bashing dick with no clue like ludahai.
Second, Goguryeo was absorbed during the Tang Dynasty. They were cousins of some other groups that live in Korea today as well as Manchurians or generally northeast Asians in China or elsewhere. It’s disputable whether Goguryeo was a Korean or Chinese kingdom; it played a role in the history of both. But the ethnic Koreans or Korean-Chinese, as it were, in the three northeast provinces of China today are not Goguryeo descendents – those were exiled upon their defeat long ago.
If I recally my history correctly the ethnic Chinese did not start moving en masse north of the Great Wall region until the late Qing dynasty. According to my Cambridge History of China covering the Qing dynasty, the northeast corridor of modern-day China (Manchuria and the area bordering modern Korea) was sparsely populated Wild East territory. Ethnic Chinese began immigrating during the 19th century but it wasn’t until the Japanese were trying to build up Manchukuo as a heavily industrialized powerbase that the region truly took off. Factory metropolis like Shenyang and Harbin were sleepy villages until the Japanese moved in, and even today the Japanese legacy is there as that region is the rustbelt of China. So really, given how recent massive ethnic Chinese presence in the region is, the claim that has been “traditional” Chinese territory since the Tang dynasty doesn’t carry all that much weight, no more than the Korean claims that it is theirs by squatters’ rights. It’s pretty obviously buffer/borderland territory where the ethnic groups mix into a blur, similar to Alsace/Lorraine between Germany/France.
[quote=“zeugmite”][quote=“ludahai”]
Actually, both are true.
[/quote]
No, Chinese do not believe Korea is a Chinese territory.[/quote]
I didn’t say today, I said in the past.
[quote][quote=“ludahai”]
The Chinese have claimed that some ancient Chinese kingdoms are actually Chinese.
[/quote]
Uh… am I missing something here?[/quote]
Sorry, it should have read KOREAN kingdoms, that the Chinese have claimed that KOREAN kingdoms were actually Chinese.
[quote][quote=“ludahai”]
The Koreans claim that their domains traditionally extend into southern regions of present-day Liaoning and Jilin provinces (areas that to this day have significant Korean minorities - the border city of Dandong is largely Korean and Korean language signs can be seen everywhere). [/quote]
Those ethnic Koreans arrived during Japanese occupation before WWII. Korean signs were put up under PRC’s ethnic minorities policy. They’ve got Jack to do with ancient tribes that lived there.[/quote]
Not true. Koreans were living there nearly two thousand years ago when the kingdom of Koryukyo extended out of the Korean peninsula well into what are today Liaoning and Jilin. THey have been living there ever since. THe signs I saw in Korean while I was there had nothing to do with the government and were largely put up by private business owners. There are also centuries old temples in the region which have Korean script plus people I met who told me that theyr families have lived in the area for hundreds of years. All of that contradicts your wonderful ChiCom propoganda.
[quote][quote=“ludahai”]
The Koreans are correct in their claims and as usual, the Chinese claims are rubbish.[/quote]
You are the authority on this because…?
Just because China-bashing is everyone’s favorite sport does not make its claims “usually rubbish.” Your claims, on the other hand, having no support, is a lot more suspect than “rubbish.”[/quote]
Sorry, I have truth on my side. BTW, Han didn’t arrive into that area until the 19th century!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Don’t expect him to accept such an authorative source as the Cambridge History as it is a Western source and is therefore obviously biased, or some such nonesense!!!
[quote=“mod lang”]If I recally my history correctly the ethnic Chinese did not start moving en masse north of the Great Wall region until the late Qing dynasty. According to my Cambridge History of China covering the Qing dynasty, the northeast corridor of modern-day China (Manchuria and the area bordering modern Korea) was sparsely populated Wild East territory.
[/quote]
Granted, it was mountainous, forested, and undeveloped, like lots of places.
Actually development began before the Japanese occupation. Mining, schools, railroads, banks, etc. were developed by the early ROC. Japan’s investment was in military industry. It cannot be overlooked but it is not to be exaggerated either.
Huh? Except the Koreans weren’t squatting – they weren’t there. Koreans aren’t claiming it is theirs by squatting. Mind you, it was undeveloped, not unclaimed.
[quote=“mod lang”]
It’s pretty obviously buffer/borderland territory where the ethnic groups mix into a blur, similar to Alsace/Lorraine between Germany/France.[/quote]
How did it turn from a sparsely populated region into an teeming ethnic melting pot in just one post? That’s not “pretty obvious” to anyone. The main thrust of Han settlement in the northeast took place over about 200 years and they’ve always been the supermajority since (even more of a majority than in China overall). Ethnic Koreans began moving in around 1850 but fled into the region in larger numbers after Japan occupied Korea in 1910.
The point is the border between Korea and and China was always fairly clear. Wadidya think? It was a DMZ?
[quote=“ludahai”]
Well, maybe you forgot that China did have control over at least the northern part of the peninsula as well as, more recently, suzerainty over the whole peninsula. Does such a fact become “rubbish” to you also?
So you simply defined it to be a “Korean” kingdom and tautologically claimed it therefore was not Chinese. That’s just great.
Did you read what I wrote? After Tang absorbed Goguryeo, the people were exiled. That means they were sent all over the place. They have not been living there ever since. Even if there were stragglers, they assimilated. Korean minorities in China today have got nothing to do with Goguryeo descendents. Goguryeos spoke not Korean but a different language.
Hello? Are we still talking about Goguryeo?
Need I tell you that the Korean script wasn’t even invented until hundreds of years after Goguryeo disappeared from history? 'Cuz it’d be damned funny if Goguryeos, who spoke not Korean, with no knowledge of a script invented only later, carved those things onto Goguryeo temples.
Putting aside Goguryeos, need I also remind you that aside from the native Hangul script, the Koreans also wrote in the borrowed Chinese script? Unless it was something very recent, that’s what Koreans would have written in – Chinese characters.
Why are you so clueless? Actually, I know why. I am certain you’ve never talked to any ethnic Korean family there. Perhaps you just made the whole thing up.
[quote=“ludahai”]
All of that contradicts your wonderful ChiCom propoganda. Sorry, I have truth on my side. BTW, Han didn’t arrive into that area until the 19th century!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!![/quote]
Clueless & nutty. How ironic, too. With your style, you would fit perfectly in a propaganda machine. And “ChiCom”? Let me guess, you are in love with Bush. How did I know.