Living in Yilan - the pros and cons?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

Yilan was a total waste of time and money.

I went to do 2 days of classes as a ‘demo’ which turned out to be me replacing a teacher who went on a holiday.

The boss was nice enough but the hospitality sucked. I travelled 7 + hours to get there to try out for a job and they didnt even buy me a shitty 70NT lunch box the whole time I was there…

The school was pretty toxic. None of the teachers that I met seemed very happy about being there and 2 of the foreign teachers talked happily about when they would be leaving.

The classes were too big - in one junior high class there were 27 kids in the room. Im sorry but 27 x 14 year olds? What a nightmare… It was chaos. The system they used for homework, roll call and lesson prep was so convoluted and ridiculous that it needed its own 2 day workshop to understand… And when I made a mistake the boss got annoyed straight away. Alarm bells…

I have since searched online and discovered other comments on the school that mirror mine.

So… I wont be working in Yilan any time soon, not at that school anyway.

When I declined the offer I was told that I give up too easily… and I wont be a good teacher with ‘my attitude’ pfft… give me a break

22

pubba: That’s a real shame. The old bait and switch. What’s the name of the school, for future reference? The more we get these kind of dodgy antics out in the open, the less they’ll be able to get away with them.

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It’s called ‘Ivy League’ school

Back to the job hunt now :frowning:

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Thanks. Is it a buxiban or a junior high school? It sounds like a buxiban. If so, it sounds like the junior high school sub-contracts to the buxiban. Interesting.

Good luck with the job hunting.

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Thanks guyintaiwan - surely I will find something soon? Starting to get a bit worried now…

It’s a huge buxiban. I suspect their fees are low and they pack in as many students as they can. I actually said I would consider the job if they paid me less, and split the bigger classes in two. They looked like I just had shagged their cat…

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pubba: I think there are plenty of jobs out there, though not necessarily in Yilan (City or County). It’s not heavily populated.

Those huge classes would be the pits. The cram (emphasis on the word cram) school concept is fatally flawed and incredibly depressing. Some of the things I’ve heard about are ridiculous. Most of the models are based upon making money hand over fist and not giving a rodent’s earlobe about the students really learning English. Likewise, from the other end, the parents/adult students seem driven largely by two things, and two things only: cost and results on those damned written exams. Everyone’s missing the point and trying to cut as many corners as possible. Let’s face it, how well could you learn to speak any language when the one-on-one time with the teacher was one or two minutes (at most)?

I have some junior high school classes that are only eleven students. I have some that approach thirty. The smaller classes are great because I can really interact with the kids. The larger classes are just far too big to be even remotely productive.

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I agree totally.

Maybe Im weird but I would be prepared to take a pay cut for certain classes if the boss would have halved them. 28 fourteen year olds in ANY culture would be a nightmare I think, but 14 would be much more reasonable.

There was one tough guy/smart ass in the class that was the class clown. He was the guy in the expensive baseball jacket, slicked back hair etc etc… He singled me out even before the class had begun - shouting ‘hey! sexy man! you are very sexy man! hey!’ when I was preparing my books.

I looked him straight in the eye and said ‘Come here’ and led him outside.

Well, away from his peers he looked terrified. It was all just show. I said (in my bad chinese) ‘Why are you saying those things?’ he said ‘I dont know’ (the typical teenage response… I dunno) and then I said ‘Because it’s funny?’ and he admitted it.

Then I said ‘Stop it. Now’

It worked!

If I didn’t do that, the whole 50 minutes would have been (more) awful.

But… I dont want to have to do that every lesson. I would much father have either a smaller group of teens, or just work with 8 to 12 year olds.

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pubba: The only reason I can really think of for these situations even occurring is that there’s a huge lack of resources (eg. foreign teachers) in these schools, so they figure something is better than nothing, although I’m not all that convinced of that even. Granted, a foreign teacher is going to be better for pronunciation, conversation, etc. However, any advantage of having said teacher is completely blunted by the enormous class sizes. I would have thought it would lead to better results to pay two local teachers say 300-400NT/hour each to teach 14 kids each, than to pay one foreigner double that to teach 28 kids.

I’m not entirely sure of the rationale behind how they do things. At our school (a junior high school), we have eight foreign teachers (currently seven as one left). We’re paired up and split a class in two, although sometimes we have these motley groups of kids doing/not doing other special programs such as music (which our school is big on).

Generally, it works well for the normal split classes as they’re approximately a dozen students. Later, we swap with our partner. Later still, we swap with another pair, etc. The kids are streamed into each group, so we know what level we’re meant to be working at.

However, the motley groups are insane. There are too many kids, and in one class I’ve had (and am temporarily covering until we get the new teacher), we have kids who have had years at buxibans right down to a pair of half-Japanese twins who barely speak Mandarin, let alone any English.

Ideally, they’d do it differently, of course. I think it’s a matter of resources though. The salaries for the eight teachers here are enormous (and it’s a very small school – about eighteen classes I think – though we also run another project here). Most schools don’t have anywhere near those numbers, and many schools don’t have any foreign teachers. Many schools also really lack the experience and resources at the recruitment/liasing level to make the most of their foreign teachers. They’re still learning and changing their minds here about how they do things and there’s quite a support staff (plus an agency).

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pubba, sorry to hear the endeavor to Ivy League was a disappointment, but thanks for reporting back on it. It helps people like me with what to expect in getting started in Taiwan. How frustrating! Did you look at any other schools in the Yilan area? I am a complete newbie looking to come to teach ESL in Aug and Yilan is my 1st choice for teaching/living followed by Hsinchu and Tainan. I’d prefer not to use a recruiter but I understand Yilan and surrounding towns are not very populated and public transport is not comprehensive. I’m trying to get a feel for if I could just walk down certain streets and see schools that I could walk into and inquire about a job. Unless I’m deranged and this is not how it works? Anyhow, please let me know your impression about job hunting on the ground in Yilan, having gone there yourself.

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globalgourmand: The following is very specific, but in terms of looking for work here, I think a large part of it depends upon the person doing the looking. Of course, Ilan is also a lot smaller.

Anyway, I have a friend (in Taoyuan) who doesn’t have an ARC. He flies in and out of the country every month (which he has been doing for more than 18 months). He works at about five different places I believe (so he’s not really stressed if he loses one), plus he has privates. He works pretty hard and makes a lot of money.

He drops into any place he sees and chats them up. He also lays down his “rules”, which include no preparation, no homework marking, no unpaid hours in general, plus a whole bunch of other stuff. He tells places to take him or leave him. I guess some do leave him, but generally, he seems to be doing very well for himself.

He’s kind of a ballsy guy like that with a lot of things in life, but it does seem that working in Taiwan is, to a certain extent, like dealing with stray dogs – if you show fear, you’re screwed, but if you go in all alpha, they respect you even more and don’t try all the same crap on you. Again, maybe it’s just him.

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GuyinTaiwan, thank you so much for sharing this man’s situation. Its a unique perspective and I imagine the suggestion to go in as alpha will be very helpful for me. But also perhaps a greater challenge seeing that I am a “cute,” younger, gregarious, outgoing female. But I am prepared to present myself as confident, serious and unwavering. Professional dress, a confident walk, and a firm list of what I will and won’t accept in a contract. My impression through these weeks of research has been that good schools exist in Taiwan, but the majority have a money-making agenda and will take advantage of you wherever you allow (or simply when you’re not looking.) Perhaps, though, I am confusing a buxiban with public schools or private schools? Ack! Need more research…!

Regarding the job hunt, I believe I will be an appealing applicant to the schools despite not having teaching experience nor any ESL certification (I’m considering this but reputable certs. like CELTA are quite pricey!!) I feel competent that I can meet new challenges swiftly and come up with creative and effective ways to reach students. But we’ll see on the ground!

If others pick up this discussion, I am really looking to get a feel for what the school situation is like in Yilan. I need to know if I can just walk down any old street (or likewise, in Luodong) and see schools to walk into with a resume -OR- if it would be better to seek a recruiter like R2T to help in the search. I have no idea how many options I will find in Yilan-- 10? 30? 100? Is there a list of schools somewhere?

Anyhow, due to my aversion to air pollution and many other reasons, I believe it is worth the challenge to really try to find a good job in the Yilan area in order to be happy and healthy in Taiwan. My second choices are Hsinchu or Tainan. My last preference is probably Taipei County (not that I wouldn’t be willing to look elsewhere if it came to that.) But what is weighing on my mind is having to arrive on the ground and having finite resources plus a visa with a deadline. So I’d like to know as much about my chances in Yilan/Luodong specifically if possible. …followed by Hsinchu, Tainan, Taipei City and others like… if anyone can speak to this situation, please do!! :notworthy:

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:roflmao: Bless you, my dear. Good luck, and you made this old bird chuckle.

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[quote=“globalgourmand”]GuyinTaiwan, thank you so much for sharing this man’s situation. Its a unique perspective and I imagine the suggestion to go in as alpha will be very helpful for me. But also perhaps a greater challenge seeing that I am a “cute,” younger, gregarious, outgoing female. But I am prepared to present myself as confident, serious and unwavering. Professional dress, a confident walk, and a firm list of what I will and won’t accept in a contract. My impression through these weeks of research has been that good schools exist in Taiwan, but the majority have a money-making agenda and will take advantage of you wherever you allow (or simply when you’re not looking.) Perhaps, though, I am confusing a buxiban with public schools or private schools? Ack! Need more research…!

Regarding the job hunt, I believe I will be an appealing applicant to the schools despite not having teaching experience nor any ESL certification (I’m considering this but reputable certs. like CELTA are quite pricey!!) I feel competent that I can meet new challenges swiftly and come up with creative and effective ways to reach students. But we’ll see on the ground!

If others pick up this discussion, I am really looking to get a feel for what the school situation is like in Yilan. I need to know if I can just walk down any old street (or likewise, in Luodong) and see schools to walk into with a resume -OR- if it would be better to seek a recruiter like R2T to help in the search. I have no idea how many options I will find in Yilan-- 10? 30? 100? Is there a list of schools somewhere?

Anyhow, due to my aversion to air pollution and many other reasons, I believe it is worth the challenge to really try to find a good job in the Yilan area in order to be happy and healthy in Taiwan. My second choices are Hsinchu (Xinzhu) or Tainan. My last preference is probably Taipei County (not that I wouldn’t be willing to look elsewhere if it came to that.) But what is weighing on my mind is having to arrive on the ground and having finite resources plus a visa with a deadline. So I’d like to know as much about my chances in Yilan/Luodong specifically if possible. …followed by Hsinchu (Xinzhu), Tainan, Taipei City and others like… if anyone can speak to this situation, please do!! :notworthy:[/quote]

Sorry I can’t give you any more specific information about any of those places. At a guess, I think you’d be more likely to get a job in either Xinzhu (large professional population, so probably a lot of buxibans for their kids) or Taipei County (large population).

Don’t worry about being a female. Who said you can’t be the alpha she-wolf of the pack? If you appear desperate in any way, they’ll smell it a mile off. Even if you are desperate, screw them around for a couple of days and make them appear desperate, just to let them know who is boss. Seriously, the whole thing here is that if you give them an inch, they will take a mile. They’ll take a quick quarter mile while you’re not looking anyway, either way. You’re right to think that they are money-making machines. I used to think this article http://www.tealit.com/article_categories.php?section=arcs&article=contracts was a load of crap and it couldn’t possibly work, but it’s true.

As for your second paragraph, they couldn’t care less about anything other than you’re a native English speaker. You could be a professor of linguistics who just revolutionised the entire field of ESL with a ground-breaking, 20 year study in 70 different countries and who wooed audiences around the world on the lecture circuit. At the end of the day, what they want is some grinning fool to play the role of the foreigner. The parents want to be able to say to the other parents at their kids’ schools that their foreigner dances more like a monkey and is more female, more American, younger and whiter than the other kids’ foreigner. If they get a 22 year-old Californian blue-eyed, blonde girl with an enormous, dopey grin who will put up with all their inane requests and put on an even bigger, more stupid grin, they’ve hit the jackpot. That’s what they want. They want you to pretend that standards don’t matter. They want you to lie to the parents. The parents want you to lie to them. No one wants you to actually teach English and no one wants you to actually say that Johnny is a lazy little fuck who doesn’t do his homework, and his sister Sally is as thick as three planks. Just keep passing them up to the next level and there will be a whole 20-50NT/hour pay raise in six months.

34

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”] …I think you’d be more likely to get a job in either Xinzhu (large professional population, so probably a lot of buxibans for their kids) or Taipei County (large population)…

…As for your second paragraph, they couldn’t care less about anything other than you’re a native English speaker . . . At the end of the day, what they want is some grinning fool to play the role of the foreigner. . . Just keep passing them up to the next level and there will be a whole 20-50NT/hour pay raise in six months.[/quote]

Eek! It seems it will really be a major challenge finding a school that is actually looking for what I’m selling! …I’m definitely not a dancing monkey. And I’m not into looking the other way to give A’s either. I understand this is the norm, but I’m just not into it. If it means I’m not cut out for working/teaching in Taiwan, so be it. But I’m sure there are a few small handfuls of Taiwanese with enough ethics to value real education over paper prestige.

Thanks for the correction on Xinzhu! And the perspective.

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[quote=“Buttercup”]
:roflmao: Bless you, my dear. Good luck, and you made this old bird chuckle.[/quote]

Happy to be the butt of any joke! …but still no help, even from the wise old bird. What is this forum for?

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globalgourmand: Yes, Xinzhu has the “Science Park”, so there are lots of engineers and so on down there. That means they have both money and education, which means they especially expect their children to have the same, which means buxibans. I haven’t been to Xinzhu, but that’s what I’ve heard, and it makes sense. I can’t comment a lot about Tainan, as I’ve only been there once, but whilst it’s the fourth largest city I think, it’s not such an important economic centre. As such, the money in that part of the country is going to be in Gaoxiong. I liked Tainan a lot when I was there, and it has a laid back feel.

As for the bit of the dancing foreigner, I think regardless of where you go, there’s going to be a certain amount of that. To a certain extent, you have to suspend disbelief.

Passing kids up to the next level is fairly common here, and happens even in the better schools. Someone I knew who worked in a good private school in Taipei said it happened there too. Some parents put a lot of pressure on the schools. Partly it’s so they can keep up with their peers and peers’ kids. Partly it’s because at the end of the day, I would probably regard the average piece of paper from any and all educational institutions in this country as worthless (not that they’re often that much better elsewhere, but for different reasons – hey, I got a degree, so that’s my point!), but here, it’s all about the piece of paper. You might not be able to apply anything you’ve learnt here, or even tie your own shoelaces, but if you have a whole bunch of qualifications and can sit tests, then you’re on the gravy train. In the private sector, it’s all about retaining clients, and for whatever reason, most people here are so shit-scared of losing them, that they’ll stoop to anything to keep them. It’s a race to the bottom. Having said that, I put a large part of the blame back on the parents as they’re incredibly complicit, if not directly responsible, for this. Parents can’t be that naive, and if they demanded standards, they’d get them. The situation being as it is, I would suspect that they actually demand it to be that way.

Likewise, in the public education system, it’s easier to pass kids up also. Too many questions get asked if kids don’t pass. There are some twins at my school (a junior high school) who are half-Japanese. The boy speaks reasonable Mandarin apparently, but the girl struggles. The boy speaks next to no English. The girl speaks none. Yet they were thrown into my intermediate level English class with their classmates. On one test, the girl didn’t even attempt any questions. How could I possibly pass her? Yet I guarantee that her Taiwanese English teacher would not fail either of them, or any of the other kids in the class who weren’t up to par. Likewise in other classes with the kids who screw around. I had some kids in a class yesterday who refused to do any work after I hauled them over the coals for screwing around last week. The Taiwanese teacher got the P.E. teacher (who is a notorious hard arse – saw him about to beat the shit out of a kid with a cane yesterday afternoon) to come and take them away. They’ll still pass.

If I have a really cynical opinion of English teaching in this country it’s because of what I’ve seen (in the junior high system and also from working in a major buxiban) and heard. On a daily basis, I also encounter people who have spend years and a bucket of money on learning English. Additionally, time and again, Taiwan punches below its bodyweight on tests of English proficiency. I don’t have time to find the link here, but there’s a thread with an article showing on the latest one (2007?), Taiwan ranked 16 out of 20 Asian nations, behind a bunch of much poorer places with far fewer resources (public or private) to devote.

Having laid out how cynical I am of the education system here, I’d like to also note that plenty of people in the West graduate at the level of an illiterate in their first language. I also got worn down by the low standards, especially in behaviour, in the two English speaking public school systems I taught in. Further to that is the contrast between your ability to earn (and save) money as a teacher in the West and in Taiwan. You can do very well for yourself and live a very good life here. Generally, the positives about living here far outweigh the negatives, as much as we all bitch and moan about the place.

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Guy, thank you again for your input. I feel I understand very well how you and so many others posters here and at dave’s have become so cynical about Taiwan in general and about teaching ESL. I’d be a fool not to know you have reasons for it. So I’m taking notes. But I also think its a reflection on you as people, too. In my research, I occasionally run into people who admit the bad, but overall they weigh these things with a myriad of other positives about life in Taiwan and they come out with a visibly positive perspective. I don’t know if I will succeed, but I would like to be one of these people.

The challenge for me is to actually put into practice my belief in cultural relativity. And perhaps its oxymoronic to admit, even, that I also believe there are exceptions to the rule. FGM might be one example. Passing students up a level who aren’t ready for that might be another, but I know we have to pick our battles. My first exercise in this was asking myself if I’d be willing to work illegally in Taiwan in a kindergarten, for example, or in a school location other than the one on my ARC. The way I dealt with this was to think about cultural relativism and how most government will look the other way on some things. Some seem more heinous than others. Its relative.

So, your points are well-taken. Passing students who have not earned that priviledge is an issue that I will unequivocally have to face. I cannot now predict how I will handle it until I’m there, but I can at least prepare for it psychologically or even rhetorically. Perhaps I can even discuss this with schools or recruiters in advance. Perhaps they will not be interested in discussing it.

Whether I will love it or hate it there, at the end of it, I will walk away with more insight about myself and the kind of life I’m happy living.

But first I have to figure out where I’m going to be!! You make great points about Xinzhu and the current state of the economy is a troubling factor. Perhaps I will turn my focus to that area and mostly write-off the idea of making it in Yilan my first year. Care to comment on the pollution levels in that area? All I have in my notebook for Xinzhu is “Recommended. Good public transport.”

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[quote=“globalgourmand”]
Happy to be the butt of any joke! …but still no help, even from the wise old bird. What is this forum for?[/quote]

Taking the piss out of newbs/Canadians? Sorry, I’ve never really been in your position.

Just stick a pin in a map/flip a coin. Nothing’s irrevocable. Research and advice is silly. And good luck in your journey. Life is far too precious to waste ‘planning’.

Absolutely. I am a qualified teacher who recently quit after ten years. It mostly ‘reflects’ that I pissed away my education and youth on being a white monkey, yet paradoxically, I wouldn’t change a single thing. I loved living in Taiwan, Thailand and France and wouldn’t trade a single depressing lesson for a lame-o ‘career’.

Oh, and it’s the cultural relativists with a positive outlook that go squweeming back to their mammies within two years … :wink:

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[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]globalgourmand: The following is very specific, but in terms of looking for work here, I think a large part of it depends upon the person doing the looking. Of course, Yilan is also a lot smaller.

Anyway, I have a friend (in Taoyuan) who doesn’t have an ARC. He flies in and out of the country every month (which he has been doing for more than 18 months). He works at about five different places I believe (so he’s not really stressed if he loses one), plus he has privates. He works pretty hard and makes a lot of money.

He drops into any place he sees and chats them up. He also lays down his “rules”, which include no preparation, no homework marking, no unpaid hours in general, plus a whole bunch of other stuff. He tells places to take him or leave him. I guess some do leave him, but generally, he seems to be doing very well for himself.

He’s kind of a ballsy guy like that with a lot of things in life, but it does seem that working in Taiwan is, to a certain extent, like dealing with stray dogs – if you show fear, you’re screwed, but if you go in all alpha, they respect you even more and don’t try all the same crap on you. Again, maybe it’s just him.[/quote]

Pretty sure I know this guy. If I’m right, he was banned from the flob.

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[quote]Oh, and it’s the cultural relativists with a positive outlook that go squweeming back to their mammies within two years … :wink:
[/quote]
LOL! Is a wink supposed to make it less offensive? You’re implying that I’m naive and immature or too soft for this. Well, your perspective is relative to what you know about me. From my perspective, I haven’t lived with my “mammie” since I was 17, I’ve worked hard, learned a lot, traveled the world, and I’ve been in plenty of challenging situations. If I left Taiwan within two years, I won’t be “squweeming.” I prefer making calculated decisions, which I think is evident. You can call it silly, but it is my preference and it has been very rewarding so far in life. Nothing is irrevocable except time wasted being unhappy. And planning brings me to happiness. So what is the problem really?

Also, Buttercup, you neglected to acknowledge that what I said was “it reflects on you as people.” Meaning, what kind of a person gets an education and then spends 10 years of their adult youth living in foreign countries, out of their comfort zone, facing challenges, and being a “white monkey?” To me, that would reflect an interesting, inquisitive, adventurous, tenacious person-- someone I’d like to know more about. Someone I could learn from. However, people who like to “take the piss of of newbs” reflects something entirely different. To me, it reflects empty people who feel better about themselves after berating newbies and offering none of their “qualified teacher” experience.

WHAT have you loved about Taiwan, Thailand, and France? Tell me that and I might learn something or even feel inspired. I’m not going to “stick a pin in a map/flip a coin” and end up in Kaohsiung where I’ll be miserable in the persistent smog. Do you really think that’s a good idea??? Is that wise “old bird” wisdom?

I came here forumosa seeking on-the-ground, living and working perspectives about Yilan and other Taiwan locations. Can you offer that or not?