Lo Bo To's dog situation

So here it is. I took in one dog who I found on the street when I first got to Jiayi about 15 months ago or so. I had him for five months or so and decided to find him a friend cause I think he was getting lonely during the day. So I found a really cute black Lab mix in the park and took her home.

They get along so well and are now best friends. A few months later my gf came home with a yellow Lab mix that followed her home. She is really quiet and sweet. I thought that I had found her a home but it fell through. :frowning:

I found three other puppies a couple of months ago who I have luckily been able to find a new home for.

So now I have three big dogs. About 3 months ago I found this puppy

Thread here http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?t=54851&highlight=

He had to stay at the vet for three months recovering from an extremely broken/mangled rear left leg. I had a misunderstanding with the vet (and my gf who spoke with him) and I thought that it was only going to cost me NT1600. So they called and told us that keeping him there for three months is going to cost us NT10,000. :noway:

This guy is a great vet and I don’t doubt that it did cost him a lot to look after the little guy but it was a bit of a shock.

So now I have my neighbors complaining that my house smells. See this thread http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?t=57523&highlight=

It’s all been quite a bit of stress and a lot of hard work caring for them all.

My first dog was properly trained how to walk on a leash but after I got the second one I just took them to the school across the street at night at around 1am(where I was able to lock the school yard so they couldn’t get out) and let them run freely. The problem is now she is big and can’t walk properly on a leash and I don’t live close to a park.

Basically it’s just stressing me out that she isn’t getting enough exercise and is not happy. She stays on the roof of my house (It’s about 11mX5m) most of the day. I let the three of them out late at night when there is no one on the streets for about 30 minutes a day.

So I am trying to find a home for this beatiful girl as well

I love her a lot but I think it would be better for both her and me if she had a place where someone had more time and energy. She is sweet as candy and very quiet. When I let my dogs out to run she will usually just stay by my side and want me to scratch her neck:)

If anyone has any suggestions about anything I wrote about or if you know of someone who might wany to adopt either of these two great dogs then PM me.

The times I’ve been there. The thing is, it ALWAYS works out fine and dandy in the end.

Keep up the good work, and imagine how you will feel once the pup has a wonderful new home. :wink:

Lo Bo To,
Have you heard of “The Chiayi Planet”? It’s an English-language paper for the expat population in Chiayi. Perhaps you could put a pic and a notice in the paper.

Lo Bo To, you’re not alone in your battle. I’ve been in those situations before and I felt like the last person in the world who cared about these dogs. But the truth is, there are plenty of us out there stuggling to make some sort of a difference. I don’t know how many times I thought I was going to go insane just from being stressed out about how I was going to take care of so many animals. But like Sean said, things do seem to work out in the end and now when I look back on those times, I don’t feel any regret for doing what I did. More and more people will notice what you are doing and you are probably going to inspire someone to do the same. I know I felt much better about what I was doing when I read that other people were going through the same ordeals. So, keep it up and hang in there. You’re doing the right thing.

Thanks for the moral support. The Chaiyi Planet is a great idea. Thanks for the tip.

I just got back from walking the three big guys. As I said, the youngest of the three always pulls me when I am walking her. And she is strong as an ox. I try to tell her to heal and stop and make her sit when she is pulling (which is all the time) but she doesn’t respond.

It makes walking her almost impossible. I’ve even tried running her alongside my scooter but she almost pulls me right off it sometimes.

I am going to get her fixed soon. Maybe that will help.

[quote=“Bokgwai”]More and more people will notice what you are doing and you are probably going to inspire someone to do the same.[/quote]Well said. I for one find Lo Bo To’s tales inspiring. :notworthy:

[quote=“Lo Bo To”]I just got back from walking the three big guys. As I said, the youngest of the three always pulls me when I am walking her. And she is strong as an ox. I try to tell her to heal and stop and make her sit when she is pulling (which is all the time) but she doesn’t respond.

It makes walking her almost impossible.[/quote]

You’re not near Taipei, are you? That’s a shame; I could show you how to fix the pulling in minutes. I’ll try and explain here (I just did a demo on Truant’s dog, Jack, who is also a big, strong dog and a big puller, so Truant can verify that it works … once he has slept off his jet lag).

Method 1:

Use a high collar (the usual collar but not loose nor too tight but kept as high on the neck as possible). With the dog on your left side, hold the end of the leash in your right hand (thumb through the far end of the ‘handle’ and other fingers gripping the rest) and with your left hand grip the leash near the collar in such a way as to keep the collar high (but not strangling) and the dog’s head level with and close to your leg. This is much easier and requires much less effort than trying to pull your dog back once he has started pulling ahead.

Do not look at the dog. Do not ask the dog to walk. Just walk, head high, shoulders back, and mind focused on the walk and how you envision it should be. When the dog tries to pull ahead (very difficult with the way you’re controlling her now), simply tug the leash towards you, not back, up, or down, and just a tug - you are not jerking the dog’s head (which can cause back problems later, for you and the dog). Keep walking, keep looking forward, keep your posture, and keep your mind on how the walk is going to be from now on.

The dog may battle for ten seconds, two minutes, or maybe five minutes, but rarely more than seven, and then will realise that she has a leader now and will walk more nicely beside you (Jack took about 20 seconds). She will test occasionally, and you repeat the gentle tug to the side towards you and keep the collar high. Don’t talk to the dog; just lead with your body language, and try as much as possible to leave the leash loose whenever possible (a tense leash creates a tense dog, so a loose leash is what you are going to achieve in that time).

Once your dog has accepted that you lead the walks and has behaved well for a length of time, you can allow her to smell the ground or take a pee, or even give her a longer leash to walk around more. Perhaps run with her or let her off the leash in a safe area and play ball. But only do this on your terms. You play when you say play and stop when you want to stop, with no arguments; this is how alphas lead in dog packs. When you return home, use the method again.

Method 2:

You can start with the dog having a looser leash and not such a high collar. Proceed on the walk as you always should, with your head high and looking forward, shoulders back, and mind focused on the walk and how you envision it should be. As soon as the dog starts to pull ahead (you must be quick), you switch direction (when starting out, it is much easier to switch to the right). Give a gentle tug of the leash in the direction you are now heading and proceed. Do not engage the dog in a conversation about it; remain aloof and ignore any attempts to get your attention. The dog will foillow, then catch up. If she starts to pull ahead again, switch direction again and give the dog a gentle directional tug on the leash. Keep this up until the dog accepts that you are leading the walk and not her (with Jack, about five seconds).

You may have to play this game for several minutes before the dog stops trying to walk ahead of you, but you will notice almost instantly that she has stopped pulling you with any amount of force … in fact, she should never be able to pull at all, and this is the way you want her to learn to walk. She may battle for leadership at first, but once she senses you are focused on being the leader and realises that her attempts at a coup are thwarted at every turn, she will succumb to following your lead.

Both these methods are extremely effective, with no need for punishment of any kind (just causes other problems anyway), nor so much as a raised voice; you are doing it all by projecting strong leadership and little more. Very quickly she will learn to walk nicely, and you won’t need to keep repeating the corrections, except for the very occasional reminder. It’s not the dog who’s changed, of course; it’s you. :wink:

You could be lazy and buy a Halti collar/harness, which do work very well, but it is far better and cheaper to establish your role as your dog’s leader, which will also serve to help eliminate other unwanted behaviours too.

(See this post for more info on relieving your dog of her perceived leaderhip role using langauge that she understands.)

It works. If I was near you I would come and show you and you would be amazed; instead you’ll have to amaze yourself and go do it yourself. Stay focused; do not engage in a debate about who’s leading the walk; show calm, confident leadership - your dog will understand this and let you take the lead.

Let us know how it goes (you’re going to love it :wink: ).

Sean

This no-pull harness worked for my former puller. Seems to work better on a big dog versus a small dog. Harness tends to slip off for a short-legged dog.

petexpertise.com/item–Easy- … rness.html

You can also look into some training methods from a guy named Cesar Millan. He’s a trainer in the States that has become pretty popular recently and now has a show on National Geographic. His methods are pretty similar to what Sean mentioned above and they don’t cost you any money. It’s just a different way to look at your relationship with your dogs and how you can change their behaviour in a positive way. Check out some of the video clips on the National Geographic website if you have time. Seeing training techniques in practice helped me quickly realise what I was doing wrong with my dogs. Of course there are tons of different theories out there, so you’ll probably want to look at more than just one method. It can be confusing trying to find one that works for you, but once you do it’ll make your life much easier. Good luck and keep at it.

Some unscrupulous people download his TV series from mininova.com … which I obviously can’t suggest you do.

The National Geographic clips are short but give you a quick idea of some techniques. I’ve read a few books besides his, but they all seem to have different takes on what is right and wrong in terms of dog training. It’s hard to know which ones are the most helpful since they all seem argue their points logically. Anyone have suggestions for good training books or videos??

They all work. You can choose any, and if you follow the advice well enough, you will be succesful.

I prefer Cesar’s methods as they relate very much to pack mentality, and I have to maintain order with a pack of 45 dogs. I don’t have time to employ any of the other methods, as they rely on one-on-one training to modify the dog’s behaviour, whereas Cesar teaches how to take control by modifying one’s own behaviour - a much more efficient approach.

I use his methods and they work. I have followed his instruction and gone to the homes of several people with ‘problem’ dogs and within minutes had them wondering where their old dog went, as the one behaving so well under my leadership in no way resembled the dog they had before.

But modern behaviourists don’t like the way Cesar talks about ‘leading the pack’, and being ‘calm and assertive’ to make the dog ‘calm and submissive’. They see this as archaic and based on misinformation from faulty studies several decades ago. They also strongly disapprove of the alpha roll that Cesar uses to gain dominance over and calm an aggressive dog. This technique involves rolling the dog onto his back or side and holding his neck in one’s hand in such a way as to mimic another dog’s bite (but only to control - not hurt - the dog). And they don’t like how Cesar leads dogs through their fears in such a short time, as they believe it is inhumane to put the dog through such a stressful event even if the dog does overcome the fear soon after.

Well, I’m obviously very strongly for the humane treatment of all animals, and I would not use a technique if I didn’t think it wasn’t harmful to the dog or if the dog wouldn’t benefit from it. For me, the whole leader/follower theory works in practice - extremely well. We have seen miracles happen with the dogs in our care simply by being calm and assertive with them. I have also used the alpha roll to relieve a German shepherd of his perceived dominance and the aggression that went with it; all our volunteers noticed how much more friendly, relaxed, and happier he had become as a result of one alpha roll that lasted about one minute and which he fought against for about twenty seconds. I also used the same technique to calm a feral dog enough to be examined willingly by the vet just minutes after being called in because the three very experienced vets there could not get near him let alone on the examination table. It works, and for them it very much worked in their favour.

And I agree that leading dogs through their fears can be stressful, but no more stressful than slowly working him through the fear and extending it over a matter of months or weeks.

But the ‘positive’ approaches also work very well, particularly for very timid dogs. Clicker training, for example, is excellent at getting very shy or scared dogs to come out of their shell and following instruction through the constant rewarding of desired behaviour. I also strongly recommend this technique, but it too has its limitations, particularly with dogs who are aggressive towards other dogs or people (at least, the trainer who I asked had no suggestions for preventing fights other than to keep quarralling dogs separated and to leave them fighting once they start so as not to get hurt oneself - both completely unnacceptable and impracticle in my situation with my dogs.

So, anyway, get one book and stick to it, but don’t do anything that compromises your principles. They all work, and all have limitations, so work out which one suits your situation best.

Sean

[quote=“Stray Dog”][quote=“Lo Bo To”]I just got back from walking the three big guys. As I said, the youngest of the three always pulls me when I am walking her. And she is strong as an ox. I try to tell her to heal and stop and make her sit when she is pulling (which is all the time) but she doesn’t respond.

It makes walking her almost impossible.[/quote]

You’re not near Taipei, are you? That’s a shame; I could show you how to fix the pulling in minutes. I’ll try and explain here (I just did a demo on Truant’s dog, Jack, who is also a big, strong dog and a big puller, so Truant can verify that it works … once he has slept off his jet lag).
[/quote]
Just to add a bit to this. As soon as we got home we started with the 5 points you mentioned Sean and the latest report (I am away from home with work right now) is that he is responding well, and in particular is walking without pulling. This really is great news as previously it was a bit of a struggle for Mrs T to walk him. Ironically, you can see Jack is happier when he is letting the walker take the lead, so I can now see it’s almost a guardian’s obligation to learn and implement the pack mentality for everyone’s benefit.

Not sure about anyone else, but personally I think Sean should start a specific thread on these behavior techniques, or better still I think it would be an excellent AT fundraiser idea to run some behavior classes that are properly organised and paid for by the participants.

Very well said. :bravo:

I would be very interested in teaching these methods, but as I’m not actually qualified, I’ll try and find someone who is - I think the Barkbuster people do it.

Anyway, I’d like to teach people these methods in some way or other, as it’s ‘badly behaved’ dogs who end up being dumped.

OK, I’m thinking how …

well, if you really want my opinion, I believe you are qualified for the job in that you would be deal with a huge number of people who have adopted via yourself or other volunteers at AT.

If it is true that the pack mentality can be learned/taught, then I believe if someone is prepared to put in the time to research, learn and practice the methods on various dogs, then it wouldn’t be long before they were an expert. Sean, I am sure you are (and will be) in a very good position to have learnt quickly how to judge dog behavioural issues, so I would support you formalising what you have learned already, and be given the opportunity to continue to research and take this further.

Well, thanks for that. :slight_smile:

I’ll put together the info in a better format and start a thread about it. I think it’s important to constantly remind people of the pros and cons, too, and that there are other methods that work; perhaps others with more experienc in those could describe those in detail and answer questions.

Dog psychologists and behaviourists seem to be up in arms about Cesar Millan’s methods, so I’ll try to address their points too, just to be fair and balanced. Like I said, whatever his theories are based on and regardless of his own lack of formal training on the subject, his methods work. I guess we can work through the sticky points and perhaps find ways to overcome the issues that other dog trainers have with his way.

Most of the most effective methods are recommended across the board, so perhaps we can build on those (the five points I outlined on another thread, for instance, though I would have to leave out terminology such as ‘pack mentality’ and ‘leadership’ and ‘calm submissiveness’ in order not to offend the modern behaviourists).

OK, let’s see what I can do …

I tried this and it works wonders. Took about 3 minutes.

Thanks Stray Dog. My dog says thanks too :scooby:

Excellent! I am VERY glad to read that.

Not everyone can do it right off the bat, so you have a natural ability for it.

How does the dog seem now? Any changes other than not pulling?

Hi folks I am glad I happened across you good people. I live in Kaohsiung and there are a couple of ex-pat groups here that take care of stray dogs and find them homes or capture strays, spay them and put them back on the streets. One is called BARK, organised by a group of very caring people, who organise weekly adoption events in Kaohsiung city. Try contacting Lori at KaohsiungLiving_com@yahoogroups.com Good luck with your dogs. I have 3 dogs myself so no room for more…

My black Lab ran a way almost four months ago. I was sad and relieved at the same time. Taking care of so many dogs is exhausting.

I was pulling up to my house this afternoon and there was a black dog sitting in front of my door. I stopped my motorcycle and she just sat there staring at me. This was a big fat black Lab. Waaaaay overweight.

I looked into her eyes and realized it was Lucy. I couldn’t believe it. I called out her name and she started jumping on me in excitment. It was great to see her.

I just got finished moving and have re-homed my little brown dog Odie. I am going to have to let the Yellow Lab go this weekend cause I simply don’t have the time anymore to take care of so many dogs.

I will keep my first dog Chopin. He is my baby and always will be.

I look at it this way. I have made a difference. I got all the dogs spayed and neutered so they won’t be able to contribute to the animal over population (Bob Barker rocks!)

I don’t feel great about letting my Yellow Lab out on the street but she was never my dog. I was just waiting for someone to come along and take her (someone almost did but never followed through on it. You know who you are :frowning: )

Lucy, the Black Lab that showed up today will probably be a semi-street dog. I’ll let her sleep in my driveway and will feed her (2-1/2 meals a day for the time being) and play with her and give her water. But she can’t come in the house. There is another street dog that is well taken care of by a group of people that my dog likes and can roam and by free with.