Lock 'em all up

[quote=“Dragonbones”]And what happens to foreigners when they’re released? Are they automatically deported?[/quote]Yes, they are automatically deported upon release, so I’m sure your sandwich munching friend was having some fun with the Subway girls.

[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Dragonbones”]And what happens to foreigners when they’re released? Are they automatically deported?[/quote]Yes, they are automatically deported upon release…[/quote]That’s what usually happens but not always. It depends on the charges and it also depends on what it is you do here. Owning property and being married to a local can play a big part in this. So I hear. There is a foreigner here in Kaohsiung who just served 6 months because he got busted smoking dope in a park. He owns two businesses in Kaohsiung which I will not name but most of us living down south have been to these places for a meal or a drink. He did not get deported.

Strange actually how the laws seem to be a lot more strictly enforced up north. I also know two girls who recently got busted for using fake diplomas in order to get ARCs. They did not get deported and they didn’t even get fined. Their ARCs were not renewed and that’s it. The last I heard before this happened, people were incarcerated and deported for doing that.

bobepine

It’s hard to say. People sometimes don’t like to look at things Black vs. White, but (regardless of what anyone says) apartheid wasn’t very long ago. Many Blacks come from families that are “uneducated” (my Aunt was the first to recieve a degree on my Dad’s side.)

There was a time in my father’s life when he was a hustler (selling drugs and stuff.) That’s not something I’ve ran into with “white folk” so much (have, but not nearly as much.)

On top of that Whitey is in power, and birds of a feather… I can remember being a little kid in Iowa (where my mom’s from) having store owners following me around waiting for me to steal something. A lot of that is assumption, but one owner actually told me “Don’t steal anything.”

So I guess I think it’s everything you said. Minorities probably commit more crimes AND get busted for them more (through profiling and whatnot, White minories AKA po’ folk, probably commit just as many crimes and get caught less.)

Also, I guess I’d say the uneducated breed more uneducated. With no degree, or hope of finding a job, there’s not much else to do but hustle (and that leads to jail.)

I can’t speak for all of America. These are just random thoughts of a Milwaukee Kid. Privatizing prisons also plays a role. More prisoners =s more dollars.

It’s hard to say. …
[Note: the rest of miltown’s post goes on to make it look otherwise :wink: ] [/quote]

Well, you asked for some light to be shed, TycOOn… In my opinion that’s exactly what you got. Starting with the admission that it’s a tough problem, but then going through and absolutely nailing what are without doubt some the most important factors.

Great post, miltownkid. :notworthy:

Thats interesting how you put that MK… we didn’t really have slavery in Australia except for the first fleet which included prisoners who served out sentences of forced labour. So our country was never founded with a large population who was enslaved to another. (This is also the situation in Africa whether it is South Africa or even other African minority groups further north.)

The situation with Aborigines in Australia seems similar to the plight of Indians in the US where colonization just completely messed up their way of life where even today they have not recovered. It probably doesn’t help however, that the vast majority live far away from the major cities so have a lack of access to services and education.

Australia will in my belief follow America in the widening gap between the haves and havenots with the process of privatising tertiary education. Most immigrants coming to Australia end up catching up quite quickly to the already existing population which helps integrate people.

It seems however that some minority groups integrate far better than others. In Australia, its more that the religious groups (Muslim) have much more trouble than any particular “race” and any clue as to why the Chinese seem so good at integration? Do you think its their value on education and business? Lack of religion?

I agree… excellent post by miltownkid.

He’s the kid!

[quote=“Tyc00n”] So our country was never founded with a large population who was enslaved to another. (This is also the situation in Africa whether it is South Africa or even other African minority groups further north.)

[/quote]

You’ve got your history wrong. Most African tribes practiced slavery, and while South Africa may have technically not had slavery in name, they certainly had slavery in practice down in the diamond mines.

[quote=“bobepine”]That’s what usually happens but not always.[/quote]Then I stand corrected. I had never heard of any foreigners doing time and then staying on, all the cases I knew about they had been taken straight from jail to the airport, deported and blacklisted. Even the ones who were married and owned property. Maybe your aquaintance down there has friends in high places. Come to think of it, he’s probably all too familiar with bribery and officialdom. :notworthy:

[quote=“mod lang”][quote=“Tyc00n”] So our country was never founded with a large population who was enslaved to another. (This is also the situation in Africa whether it is South Africa or even other African minority groups further north.)

[/quote]

You’ve got your history wrong. Most African tribes practiced slavery, and while South Africa may have technically not had slavery in name, they certainly had slavery in practice down in the diamond mines.[/quote]

Sorry, thats what I meant… that slavery existed all over the continent.

[quote=“mod lang”][quote=“Tyc00n”] So our country was never founded with a large population who was enslaved to another. (This is also the situation in Africa whether it is South Africa or even other African minority groups further north.)

[/quote]

You’ve got your history wrong. Most African tribes practiced slavery, and while South Africa may have technically not had slavery in name, they certainly had slavery in practice down in the diamond mines.[/quote]

Yeah, under apartheid (and going way back before that, pretty much up to the end of the Zulu war in 1879) for the most part the black population of South africa were virtual slaves; not only in literal terms as gold and diamond mine workers, or factory workers (the whole migrant labour situation) but also in terms of having very few civil rights.

Anyway, back to the topic - I think that the only reason that SA isn’t at the top of that list is because we don’t have enough prisons to contain all of the criminals. Even so, I’m sure the figure quoted for South Africa must be a lot higher than that. Our prisons are generally overcrowded well beyond maximum capacity, and loads of criminals aren’t sentenced to jail terms anyway, and often walk on pretty serious charges.

Thanks Hobbes and Tigerman. Praise from you two means a lot to me. :slight_smile:

I wrote that running out the door late for work. Here’s some statistics that put things in an even more freightening light.

[quote=“prisonsucks.com”][url=http://www.prisonsucks.com/]If you look at males aged 25-29 and by race, you can see what is going on even clearer, June 30, 2004:

* For White males ages 25-29: 1,666 per 100,000.
* For Latino males ages 25-29: 3,606 per 100,000.
* For Black males ages 25-29: 12,603 per 100,000. (That's 12.6% of Black men in their late 20s.)[/url][/quote]

There are more facts and figures on the site.

Putting the race thing to the side, there are a number of things that seem to be “wrong” with the prison system. I’m not exactly sure how it works, but in the US, I’m pretty sure it’s once a criminal, always a criminal. I know this from an Ice Cube song where he makes fun of filling out an application form:

[quote=“Ice Cube”]No skills to pay the bills
Takin’ 'bout education to battle inflation
No college degree, just a dumb ass G
(Yeah you Nigga, who me?)
I got a baby on the way, damn it’s a mess
Have you ever been convicted of a felony? Yes

Took some advice from my Uncle Fester
All dressed up in polyester
Welcome to McDonalds may I please help you?
sh*t, what can I do?[/quote]

The cycle continues… Kids do these dumb things when they’re young. Go to jail. Never get things together. Have kids (that do dumb things when they’re young.)

In the past, I’ve thought about the prison situation (in America) long and hard. A summary of my solution is a redirecting of funds and resources.

All that money that is spent on prisoners should probably be spent on educating youth to prevent them from turning into criminals. I don’t just mean sending them to college. I mean there needs to be more organizations like (I’m guessing, I don’t have a lot of experience with it) [Big Brothers Big Sisters].

Kids, while they’re young, need to be schooled on not just math, science and social studies, but things like girls/boys, the importance of friends, how to cope with fucked-upness, etc. Right now, these babies, whose fathers’ are in prison and mothers are working 16 hours a day to make ends meet are in route to make more babies that are doomed for a “prison” life, like my dad is still experiencing (not just the ones with bars, there’s a systematic prison to break through back home as well.) This shit is growing exponentionally too I imagine.

I feel the current system does nothing to address these kinds of problems. In fact the current (prison) system is making things worse (and your US tax dollars are paying for it.)

Another from miltownid perspective thing…

I have one brother that I grew up with, but I have 7 (or 8 :s ) brothers and sisters. The oldest being like, man, almost 40 and the youngest being about 4. Most of my siblings have been pretty lucky in who thier mothers were (me feeling very lucky), but the two youngest kid’s mother is… Let’s just say they’re not in the best situation.

That’s something else. So many kids growing up in one parent homes (two parent homes with only one of the parents being biological is cool.) I ONLY remember a life of visiting dad on the weekends. My mom was working and going to school, and she did her best to keep me off of the streets. Since growing up she’s told me that she’s sure I would have been a locked up gangster had I not been kept busy with sports and stuff.

I think there needs to be a paradigm shift in the way we (as humans) look at the law, crime and punishment.

(this is something I’ve given much thought in the past, sorry about the rant)

So, it seems that another reason the U.S. has a higher than normal incarceration rate is that the rule of law is stronger in the U.S. than most other countries, and the laws are actually enforced. If you commit a crime in America, you go to jail. From what others have posted, this is not necessarily true in Europe or South Africa. Coming from the strict, puritanical American environment, I’m constantly amazed at the amount of freedom from law I can get away with here in Taiwan. Every person in Taiwan would be in jail if the laws were enforced the way they are in America.

This is exactly what happens when they (immigrants) travel and migrate overseas to the United States or Canada.

Your right about vicious cycles. But you know something is missing in society, and yes I guess its another control. But people in America just have kids and don’t think about the responsibility… you have all these dumbass kids just having kids with they’re like 12 and stuff. Man… their parents need to get their arse kicked… but … vicious cycle right?

So how about rather than putting people back in jail, that after the 3rd conviction, chemical castration. You can still have sex… but you can’t have kids… because I think by the time you’ve been to jail the 3rd time, you’ve pretty much proven to society that you could never be a responsible parent.

In this way criminal elements will have less children, and the number of children overall will be living under better conditions.

Now I know this sounds pretty bad… and I don’t know how you’d sell it to the public… not senator would come out of it looking like anyone but Hitler, but can you see my point?

In the book Freakenomics, a genius economist worked out the real reason for drop in crime in the late 90’s… compared to earlier. It wasn’t brilliant policework, as they claimed, it was that 15 years earlier, they legalized abortion. I don’t want to get into any complex argument about the morality of this issue, but what we do know is, that unwanted kids are the ones that turn to crime.

You scare me, Tyc00n!

I scare myself sometimes… but I dare you… flaw the logic.

Having a child is a not a right… it should be earned as it is also a responsibility. Did you guys knows that in Singapore, if you are uneducated, the government will give you financial incentives to become sterilized, but if you are well educated then the goverment will give you financial incentives to have children… its almost like a form of genetic manipulation done at the government level, whilst still giving people the freedom to choose. I think its very progressive for a capitalist nation. Thoughts anyone? OR are you alikining me to a Facist Dictator?

That really depends on what you’re being put in jail for. Somebody mentioned the drugs-related statistics as an example.

The US has a tougher attitude not only to sentencing, but also to what actually constitutes a crime. In the UK they teach kids how to cross the road safely, there’s no such thing as jaywalking. (Not that I remember, anyway.) I believe you can get fined in the USA for crossing the road other than at a designated crossing, and if you don’t pay your fines most countries will put you in jail eventually.

Presumably it would be an offense in the USA to teach your kids the Green Cross Code, on the grounds that it encourages them not to use crossings and therefore endangers them. I guess it would prove that you were not a good parent.

I think it’s very hard to operate any kind of program to produce better citizens if you don’t agree about what is acceptable behaviour. Open a ‘coffee shop’ in one country and you’re a small businessman, in another you’re a menace to society. What are the universal values that Americans can agree on? I’m sure the churches would have all sorts of good ideas.

Another question: How do different countries consider their convicted citizens?

I’ve heard, but I’m not claiming it’s true, that convicted felons in the USA are not allowed to vote. In the UK you can (or could) even be elected to parliament while locked up in jail.

We have/had legislation in the UK aimed at rehabilitating offenders which put a time limit on the reporting of convictions. Once they were ‘spent’ they were deemed to never have happened, at least as far as employers were concerned. Well, that’s what my fairly hazy memory of learning about this stuff 20 years ago tells me. Does anyone have a more informed opinion. How does it work in other countries?

In the UK also, the convicted criminals forfit the right to their DNA, which makes commiting future crimes much more difficult

It’s hard to say. People sometimes don’t like to look at things Black vs. White, but (regardless of what anyone says) apartheid wasn’t very long ago. Many Blacks come from families that are “uneducated” (my Aunt was the first to recieve a degree on my Dad’s side.)

There was a time in my father’s life when he was a hustler (selling drugs and stuff.) That’s not something I’ve ran into with “white folk” so much (have, but not nearly as much.)

On top of that Whitey is in power, and birds of a feather… I can remember being a little kid in Iowa (where my mom’s from) having store owners following me around waiting for me to steal something. A lot of that is assumption, but one owner actually told me “Don’t steal anything.”

So I guess I think it’s everything you said. Minorities probably commit more crimes AND get busted for them more (through profiling and whatnot, White minories AKA po’ folk, probably commit just as many crimes and get caught less.)

Also, I guess I’d say the uneducated breed more uneducated. With no degree, or hope of finding a job, there’s not much else to do but hustle (and that leads to jail.)

I can’t speak for all of America. These are just random thoughts of a Milwaukee Kid. Privatizing prisons also plays a role. More prisoners =s more dollars.[/quote]
Top quality post there!

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]Looks like the Brits have figured out the best way to reduce the crime rate.

[quote]
‘Let burglars off with caution’, police told

08:08am 3rd April 2006

Burglars will be allowed to escape without punishment under new instructions sent to all police forces. Police have been told they can let them off the threat of a court appearance and instead allow them to go with a caution.

The same leniency will be shown to criminals responsible for more than 60 other different offences, ranging from arson through vandalism to sex with underage girls.

New rules sent to police chiefs by the Home Office set out how seriously various crimes should be regarded, and when offenders who admit to them should be sent home with a caution.

Some serious offences - including burglary of a shop or office, threatening to kill, actual bodily harm, and possession of Class A drugs such as heroin or cocaine - may now be dealt with by caution if police decide that would be the best approach.[/quote]

And it gets even better.

More here:

dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a … ge_id=1770[/quote]

A quote from the Daily Mail :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :wall:

You just don’t understand British newspaper culture…