Feiren,
Mfaas: Yes I’m always slightly annoyed when people assume that I learned my Mandarin from my better half.
Like teachers and students, husband and wives tend to speak an in-between language that both can understand (there is a technical term for this). This can actually be a hindrance to learning the language as spoken in the outside world.
Durins Bane wrote: "I know foreigners who forbid their children from speaking Mandarin. They are here running/owning schools and they detest everything about Taiwan. All take and no give. I have no love in my heart for foreigners who constantly badmouth (and I mean in a nasty, racist, way) Taiwan, do not let their half Taiwanese children experience the Taiwanese half of their lives, and who think that speaking Mandarin means one is “uneducated”. "
This IS amazing. Who are these people and why in the world would they behave this way? More importantly, what does the other half think about this policy, ie, the Taiwanese wife? Does she also go along with her husband’s I LOATHE TAIWAN AND ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR policy? What kind of Taiwanese is she?
I assume you really know people like this in Kaohsiung and elsewhere. Please xplain more. It’s hard to believe. WHy do they stay there? just for money? Is it so good?
I hate seeing these Mormon kids who breeze in here just off the boat rattling off fluent Mandarin and Taiwanese! Puts me to shame. They must have some intensive Chinese language courses over in Salt Lake City.
the way i see it, if someone lives in another culture and language long enough and acquire nothing from it, he’s simply ignoramus.
case closed.
ax
It is a classic immigrant song. Most foriegners do not to come to Taiwan to live, they are here for business, for teaching, for travel, for education, then they go home. Others have slipped into their immigrant life with the intent that they will always move back to the homeland, days pass, then years, then decades, with the thought “soon I will return home, maybe next year.” Before you know it there is a urn in the grave yard temple with your name on it in Mandarin.
The accidental immigrant never need learn the language. Whether it is a life simply spent, or a concisous abstinence, this type of immigrant has no desire to ever become a part of that land that has become home.
It is neither wrong nor bad.
Chou
[quote=“ax”]the way I see it, if someone lives in another culture and language long enough and acquire nothing from it, he’s simply ignoramus.
[/quote]
I’d partially agree and add that only an ignoramus would imagine that one can live in another culture long enough and acquire nothing from it.
[quote=“Soddom”][quote=“ax”]the way I see it, if someone lives in another culture and language long enough and acquire nothing from it, he’s simply ignoramus.
[/quote]
I’d partially agree and add that only an ignoramus would imagine that one can live in another culture long enough and acquire nothing from it.[/quote]
Soddom that post will keep a smile on my face and a chuckle in voice all day. No offense to the usually gentle ax.
Chou
[quote=“chodofu”]It is a classic immigrant song.
Chou[/quote]
So now you better stop
And rebuild all your ruins.
For peace and trust can win the day
Despite of all your losing.
What a lot of arrogance in this thread. Tell you what – tell me when Shida starts classes between the hours of 12 am and 7 am, then I might have time to attend, at least on Wednesdays and Fridays.
Some people have to work for a living. Sure, I’ve picked up enough Chinese to “buy stuff to eat” and take care of my day to day needs, but we’re not all Ax, and some of us just find language study to be EXRUCIATINGLY BORING, just as some of you fluent speakers might find it boring to run scales and arpeggios for two or three hours a day.
Interestingly, I have a friend who can understand a great deal of Mandarin, and who has lived here for many years. This person is ashamed they cannot speak more, however, they’ve reached a point in their existence where they feel it’s too late to bother. This embarrasses them, but they’re apathetic at the same time. They’ve found they simply do not need it to get by here and the idea of taking a class at this late stage embarrasses them even more!
When involved with a local person, you get used to communicating with that person in one language, and if their English skills are better than your Mandarin, you just sort of go with that out of habit, even if you can speak a basic or intermediate level with others.
I don’t find it shocking at all that people have lived here for three years plus and don’t speak much, if any, Chinese. I’ve known dozens and dozens.
With so many Taiwanese keen to practice their English, it’s no wonder really. Reminds me of the Cosi o Cosi (?) thread where someone was complaining about trying to use Mandarin with the waitress, but the waitress completely ignored their attempts.
[quote=“sandman”]What a lot of arrogance in this thread. Tell you what – tell me when Shida starts classes between the hours of 12 am and 7 am, then I might have time to attend, at least on Wednesdays and Fridays.
Some people have to work for a living. [/quote]
Studying Mandarin takes time and effort. Yes you might have to rearrange your schedule. I worked for a living when I studied at Shida and never had any problem. Or hire a private tutor. I’m sure you can find someone decent for NT$400/hour or less. Excuses, excuses.
[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“sandman”]What a lot of arrogance in this thread. Tell you what – tell me when Shida starts classes between the hours of 12 am and 7 am, then I might have time to attend, at least on Wednesdays and Fridays.
Some people have to work for a living. [/quote]
Studying Mandarin takes time and effort. Yes you might have to rearrange your schedule. I worked for a living when I studied at Shida and never had any problem. Or hire a private tutor. I’m sure you can find someone decent for NT$400/hour or less. Excuses, excuses.[/quote]
Rearrange your schedule. Nice. How would I go about doing that, exactly? My schedule is not badly arranged – its full. How hard is that to understand? I suggest you spend less time on your Chinese and a bit more on your English comprehension.
And what the FUCK do you mean, “excuses?” I already told you – I’d much rather spend my time studying music than boring myself to tears with Chinese.
How are you supposed to rearrange your schedule with a Taiwanese boss ? How much time do you think we get between arriving home and going to bed ?
If there were classes once or twice a week I might be able to manage it, are there any of those ? I couldn’t find any…
Also, why should we bother ? None of my family speaks Chinese (even though they tell ME to “Shuo Guo Yu”). no-one at works speaks it, Noone outside speaks it… If the DPP has their way, anyone who speaks Mandarin will be treated like a communist traitor.
Chinese is just hard. I see no reason why someone would learn Chinese (past the basics) if they don’t need it to get by. I have (and do) make jokes about people who have been here a long time and can’t speak, but I honestly don’t blame them. I study 4 or more hours per day (on average) and have been since January. I can see this trend going on for at least another 6 months (I can’t stop until I know “all” the characters). If I didn’t have this sickening drive to learn and a reason for learning (I have one), I would have given up a few months ago and spent more time working out (golfing, painting, taiji’ing, etc.).
Anyone put into a situation where they would have to speak more Chinese would natuarally learn more. But, it’s very easy to live here (in Taibei anyway) speaking little to no Chinese on a daily basis. With English movie channels, the internet and English speaking friends, one could live here year after year with Chinese just being unintelligable (sp?) background noise.
My point is, even with mad drive to learn Chinese it’s hard. Someone with no desire to learn can easily not learn.
I am interested in when one qualifies as being a “long timer”.
Is it a number of years ? or is it more a state of mind ?
ie You could qualify for longtimerdom after only 5 years if you have married a local & have children whereas a single person needs 10
years to qualify. Also from one post above ther maybe people who have been here for 20 years & dont qualify since they dont have 20 years experience rather 1 years experience 20 times.
Sandman:
My, I see we’re a little sensitive on this issue . I understood your English perfectly. Learning the language of the place I live “is too boring.” “I’m too busy” to become a functional member of the society I live in. I call those excuses.
BTW, I don’t spend time on Chinese anymore.
Matthewh: People are telling you to “shuo guoyu” because it’s useful. They would be thrilled I’m sure if you learned Taiwanese later. You obviously know nothing about the DPP, so you might want to stop showing off your ignorance about their policies in public.
[quote]Learning the language of the place I live “is too boring.” “I’m too busy” to become a functional member of the society I live in. I call those excuses.
[/quote]
Overwhelmingly, the language of the place I live and the people with whom I interact is English and Taiwanese. If I’m in a situation where I have to use Chinese, I can and do. And I’m a fully functional member of the society in which I live. IF I had the time and IF I didn’t find language learning a total bore, I might study formally, but I’d be under no impression that it was anything other than an affectation.
By the way, how’s your sight-reading? Or your cabinet-making skills? And don’t give me any lame excuses about not being interested in studying music or carpentry.
[quote=“miltownkid”]…I study 4 or more hours per day (on average) and have been since January. I can see this trend going on for at least another 6 months (I can’t stop until I know “all” the characters). If I didn’t have this sickening drive to learn and a reason for learning (I have one), I would have given up a few months ago and spent more time working out (golfing, painting, taiji’ing, etc.).
[/quote]
You are studying way too much. Go out and do some of those things with Taiwanese people. You’ll find that your Mandarin will improve dramatically. Do keep going to class though.
I know, I’m addicted. I’ll be making those transitions soon, it’s just that, I like it so much. I can feel the power of characters flowing through my vines. 
I need to start making my weekly visits to Toms world and Chaigkaishek memorial hall again. That’ll chill me out. Going outside might be a good idea too.