Longtermers- How do you feel about living in Taiwan now?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

With some obvious exceptions, I could probably live comfortably anywhere. I quite like living in Taiwan.

I first came to taiwan in 1985 to study Mandarin. I went back to the US for school and returned to Taiwan each summer and Christmas to be with my girl, who I later married. We stayed in the US for a while so that I could get the experience in my jurisdiction, as was then required of foreign attorneys looking to work in Taiwan, and so that my wife could be naturalized. During that time, we made frequesnt long visits to Taiwan to visit my in-laws and so that I could explore employment opportunities here. After my wife obtained US citizenship, we returned to Taiwan in 1995 for good (well, at least until I retire).

We lived in Xinzhuang when we first returned, and that just sucked for 6 months until we moved to the Da’an District in Taipei. We love the area where we live, right behind NTU. Our kid went to a good elementary school and middle school (for 2 years), and then rode his bike to Bethany in Gongguan for 2 years before going to the US for high school. My dog loves walking on the campus of NTU, and I have enjoyed walks there and using the running track for many years. I am close enough to my office to walk to/from work, and I can walk to most places (pubs) that I like. We have great neighbors, for the most part, too.

We bought our place about 16 years ago, and its value has appreciated quite a lot. I’ve no idea what may happen later, but, we have other eggs in other baskets, too. So, what happens happens and that’s the way it will go.

Yes, I work a lot, like most people here. But, I’d be working a lot back home, or most anywhere, too. But, here, my work is interesting, yet easy. I almost never need to answer the telephone, which is fantastic, as I hate those things! I don’t have a cell phone and don’t worry about people trying to contact me when I’m away from the office. My firm is active in judicial reform and I have been able to assist in this regard. We also handle virtually all types of legal matters, and thus, I have an opportunity to work on a great variety of different transactions and matters. I even have time to spend here on F.com arguing with other expats about all sorts of topics… :laughing: I make decent money for Taiwan, but, it isn’t much compared to what I’d likely make back home. But, taxes are lower here, and if you live within the economy, expenses can be lower. In this regard, it helps to have a local spouse.

I can walk to the public gym, which is about 7 minutes from my place (and its wicked cheap). I visit several different docs, when necessary, at the nearby and generally excellent 書田診所. I purchase meds here that are prescribed by docs back home but are available here at a fraction of the cost.

I don’t really understand the complaints about not being able to enjoy the mountains or environment. I have a wife, son, dog, parents, siblings, in-laws, and a job. Doesn’t matter where I live, I’ll be busy anywhere. But, we still find time to hike in the hills surrounding Taipei, and to go to concerts and festivals and events. We still have time to visit with friends from time to time. We still have time to travel both regionally and to the other side of the planet. Yes, we have to plan in advance, and budget for such travel. But, that isn’t unique to living here.

I think living in Taipei is extremely convenient. It isn’t perfect, and it isn’t the farm back home. But, there are plenty of good things that offset the bad, and each time I travel anywhere, or return home to visit the folks, I am reminded that there is no one paradise on this planet. For the most part, our lives and the places we live are what we make of them.

22

This. Absolutely this.

23

Compared to working in Europe working mostly sucks in Taiwan. The extreme top down management, the timidity of co-workers is annoying, the pay is pathetic usually, but mostly the lack of holidays for ‘own time’ and long working hours are the killer. I know, I have done it for years, and I felt like I wasted some parts of my life. Workers are just units of economic production to be exploited in Taiwan. The good part though was that as working environments can be disorganised here, you get more leeway to follow your own ideas. For all the above, you’ll be lucky to buy a craphole in Linkou or Taoyuan (with both parents working…and farming your kids off to buxibans and anqinbans and grandmas for the next 15 years), there’s no way you’ll live in Shida, Da-an, Gongguan or even in Taipei City!

Compared to working in the US it’s probably not much different, except for the pay scale and the even more excessive overtime in Taiwan.

24

[quote=“headhonchoII”]Compared to working in Europe working mostly sucks in Taiwan. The extreme top down management, the timidity of co-workers is annoying, the pay is pathetic usually, but mostly the lack of holidays for ‘own time’ and long working hours are the killer. I know, I have done it for years, and I felt like I wasted some parts of my life. The good part though was that as working environments can be disorganised here, you get more leeway to follow your own ideas. For all the above, you’ll be lucky to buy a craphole in Linkou or Taoyuan, there’s no way you’ll live in Shi-Da, Da’an, Gongguan or even in Taipei City!

Compared to working in the US it’s probably not much different, except for the pay scale and the even more excessive overtime in Taiwan.[/quote]

I’m very fortunate to work for an excellent firm. I have taken time in excess of a month more than once, and our management is done by committee (the partners). All of our attorney offices are exactly the same size, whether one is a founding partner or a new associate.

I understand that this is not necessarily typical.

25

I’ve been in Taiwan for about as long as Tigerman and his post sums up exactly how I feel about Taiwan. I think the trick is finding your niche in Taiwan and not comparing it to other places all the time. If you enjoy it for what is instead of what it is not, you will see its many advantages.

[quote=“Tigerman”]With some obvious exceptions, I could probably live comfortably anywhere. I quite like living in Taiwan.

I first came to Taiwan in 1985 to study Mandarin. I went back to the US for school and returned to Taiwan each summer and Christmas to be with my girl, who I later married. We stayed in the US for a while so that I could get the experience in my jurisdiction, as was then required of foreign attorneys looking to work in Taiwan, and so that my wife could be naturalized. During that time, we made frequesnt long visits to Taiwan to visit my in-laws and so that I could explore employment opportunities here. After my wife obtained US citizenship, we returned to Taiwan in 1995 for good (well, at least until I retire).

We lived in Xinzhuang when we first returned, and that just sucked for 6 months until we moved to the Da’an District in Taipei. We love the area where we live, right behind NTU. Our kid went to a good elementary school and middle school (for 2 years), and then rode his bike to Bethany in Gongguan for 2 years before going to the US for high school. My dog loves walking on the campus of NTU, and I have enjoyed walks there and using the running track for many years. I am close enough to my office to walk to/from work, and I can walk to most places (pubs) that I like. We have great neighbors, for the most part, too.

We bought our place about 16 years ago, and its value has appreciated quite a lot. I’ve no idea what may happen later, but, we have other eggs in other baskets, too. So, what happens happens and that’s the way it will go.

Yes, I work a lot, like most people here. But, I’d be working a lot back home, or most anywhere, too. But, here, my work is interesting, yet easy. I almost never need to answer the telephone, which is fantastic, as I hate those things! I don’t have a cell phone and don’t worry about people trying to contact me when I’m away from the office. My firm is active in judicial reform and I have been able to assist in this regard. We also handle virtually all types of legal matters, and thus, I have an opportunity to work on a great variety of different transactions and matters. I even have time to spend here on F.com arguing with other expats about all sorts of topics… :laughing: I make decent money for Taiwan, but, it isn’t much compared to what I’d likely make back home. But, taxes are lower here, and if you live within the economy, expenses can be lower. In this regard, it helps to have a local spouse.

I can walk to the public gym, which is about 7 minutes from my place (and its wicked cheap). I visit several different docs, when necessary, at the nearby and generally excellent 書田診所. I purchase meds here that are prescribed by docs back home but are available here at a fraction of the cost.

I don’t really understand tha complaints about not being able to enjoy the mountains or environment. I have a wife, son, dog, parents, siblings, in-laws, and a job. Doesn’t matter where I live, I’ll be busy anywhere. But, we still find time to hike in the hills surrounding Taipei, and to go to concerts and festivals and events. We still have time to visit with friends from time to time. We still have time to travel both regionally and to the other side of the planet. Yes, we have to plan in advance, and budget for such travel. but, that isn’t unique to living here.

I think living in Taipei is extremely convenient. It isn’t perfect, and it isn’t the farm back home. But, there are plenty of good things that offset the bad, and each time I travel anywhere, or return home to visit the folks, I am reminded that there is no one paradise on this planet. For the most part, our lives and the places we live are what we make of them.[/quote]

26

[quote=“hs172”][quote=“Brendon”]
I’m also not sure I agree about the culture thing. The duck was certainly irritating, but no more so than watching every single person on the London commuter train doing Sudoku this week, or reading 50 Shades the next week. Most people are just vapid. There’s a lot of great music, art, outdoorsmanship, and whatever else in Taiwan if you go look for it, and I’m pretty sure you have to go look for it anywhere in the world.[/quote]

Hold on a second. Are you saying people in London are Vapid? Or just people in general. Because I find the majority of locals in Taipei are soulless creatures living paycheck to paycheck with absolutely nothing to offer.

I also don’t get this ‘Fall in Love’ with Taiwan because of the scenery, the weather, nature e.t.c. Unless you got your own company or better yet unemployed, you just can’t experience these things. I also have a kick ass roof smoking area where I have a fantastic backdrop of mountains and greenery. But a backdrop is what it is. You can see it but being tied down at the office I just can’t experience it. Sure you can go hiking on the week-ends and “experience nature” but then you got a whole bunch of other stuff to get done too.

Like Taiwan Luthiers, I have no choice but to remain here. Once some kind of door opens, I’ll Hulk SMASH! the living sh*t out of it and barge in guns blazing and won’t come back until I’m 70. :2cents:[/quote]

People everywhere are vapid, was my point.

And yeah, from the office the mountains are a backdrop, but if it’s a backdrop that doesn’t exist in London.

27

Yeah but you couldn’t do what Tigerman did 16 years ago now, much as I understand he’s done his bit to get where he has. I’m also impressed by the firm he works for, it’s a very rare set-up, good for him.
It’s simply almost impossible due to income vs expense and low economic growth. Property prices have what, tripled, but incomes have not even gone up for many! Other costs must have doubled to tripled also due to inflation.

So when you see those kids going around in imported European cars, they are almost bankrolled by the parents from inherited money. They didn’t earn it themselves, and I find it hard to respect that kind of society personally.

Meanwhile most of the working plebs have to put up with this (remember most foreigners get paid more than locals too!)-

forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtop … 1&t=125107
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewforum.php?f=181
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtop … 8&t=125080 (only this year did they start to actually publish next year’s holiday far in advance, well six months in advance is far in advance in Taiwan)

It’s not all about money for me either, there’s a bit of spark missing here. I’ll admit I find it hard to make friends with some locals who get very defensive when talking openly about stuff, only now are they starting to figure out what’s been going on here. I’d casually mention Koreans get paid 2-3 times more than Taiwanese, they didn’t believe me. I’d point out that a given motorway is not necessary and is just done for kickbacks, they’d snap back it’s needed for one day a year or something. I’d ask people why are they burning paper on the street with no lid on their bucket, and they just stare vacantly back murmuring to Gods they don’t even believe in.

Saying people everywhere are vapid, it’s not really a fair comment. London is spilling over with cultural events and diversity. People still even read books there for heaven’s sake. And you wouldn’t get employees outside a shop in London praying to empty Gods for money, now that’s vapid! (not that I think London would necessarily be a better place to live, but I think culturally London is a great spot).

28

Yeah, but that’s London - culturally one of the greatest cities in the world; probably only New York is in the same league. Taipei may not be as good as those two, but it’s not bad (and if you speak Chinese, it’s probably fantastic). You can go to basically any city in the world and complain “Well, culturally it’s not as good as New York.” That’d be like watching a film and complaining “I didn’t like it because it wasn’t as good as The Godfather.”

OK, culture in Taichung, yeah, that’s poor. And probably would remain poor if you compare it to second-tier Anglophone cities like Birmingham or St. Louis.

On reading: every time I go to eslite here I’m swearing in my head at all the people sitting on the floor reading, getting in my way and blocking the books I want to look at.

You’re right that the increasing house prices are a serious problem for younger people today, but that’s not necessarily a big issue for those of us who have been here a long while; many long-termers are already on the property ladder, which makes the bubble less of an issue (until it pops!).

There does seem to be a bit of a malaise over the country, but as I already said, I don’t think that’s unique to Taiwan at all.

29

I lived in Taipei for years, culturally it’s nothing compared to Japan for example. Flower festival, classical music…bleh. Hardly any big pop acts came over. They did have some good musical productions in SYS which we enjoyed going to. Sport?
Nah not into baseball and there’s nothing else. Nothing happens on national holidays and there are almost no cultural festivals, a few temple things here and there and fireworks on New Year at 101. There’s no other ethnic groups to liven up the place. It’s really boring culturally compared to most European cities, but of course better than Taichung or other cities in Taiwan, anywhere would be. Most people are too busy working so they just use the holidays for R&R or they’ll split town on the long weekends. There’s no neighbourhood or community spirit anywhere, no local football team to get behind etc. Again it’s very much a bunch of people living in close proximity but all doing their own thing for themselves.

Taiwan has among the lowest book readership rates in the world (shared with some other Asian countries I guess), that’s also to do with internet use, of which I"m also guilty of. Most people in Taiwan don’t read books for pleasure, but of course there are a subset that do (by the way I’m a big fan of Eslite, it could expand more overseas and do very well indeed).

The media here…bleurrrrgghhh. Compare stuff from the BBC or Channel 4 or even Japan’s NHK to see the difference. Public television has a few good shows but not given much budget or power. The private stations are complete rubbish including the news programs. They hardly ever show anything that happens outside of Taiwan or China. The locally produced movies…twee sentimental pulp for the most part.

taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003557710

[quote]Nation’s reading habits cause worry

READING THE RIOT ACT:Premier Jiang Yi-huah said a nation’s strength lies in its cultural industries, and good reading habits are essential to sustain them

By Shih Hsiu-chuan / Staff reporter

The Ministry of Culture yesterday reported that Taiwanese read an average of two books per year, a situation that worries Premier Jiang Yi-huah (江宜樺), Executive Yuan spokesperson Cheng Li-wun (鄭麗文) said…

On average, Taiwanese read two books per year, compared with 10 books per person per year in France; 8.4 books in Japan; 10.8 books in South Korea, 9.2 books in Singapore; between 10 and 15 books in Israel; and 15 books in Russia, the report said.

[/quote]

Those books are probably self-help or business books in the main too.

This shows the similarity of Taiwanese with Chinese.
theatlantic.com/china/archiv … re/278729/

30

I arrived in 1996, and thought I would be here for good until divorce came and I met a gem of a woman from Italy. She’s based in Kuala Lumpur so I recently moved there.

I won’t say I miss Taipei sooooo much, as tommy525 might write, but I wish in many ways we could be there (maybe we will one day but it would likely be a suicide career move for her). But I am torn about that because of many of the reasons HHII mentions: pollution especially.

If you can get past the architecture, Taipei is a very nice place to live. And far from a cultural deadbeat I find it has a range of top activities: from art exhibits, to modern dance, to opera, religious events, local theatre, film festivals, etc. Just being able to watch a couple U-theatre and Cloud Gate performances a year is worth it.

Being away, and especially being in a Muslim country, and one with a history of ethnic tensions, I appreciate just how tame Taiwan is with its green versus blue battles. Its all goofy and theatrical and in the end everyone goes home and lives in peace with neighbors.

My main problem with Taiwan is the lack of any progress on pollution and certain civic matters such as driving and ghost paper burning. They were really wearing my patience down the past few years and when I was back last month is really hit me how much we are exposed to things we shouldn’t be over and over and over each day: from ozone, to pm2.5, to smoke from ghost paper burning, or some guy who’s got a shop on the ground floor of your building doing something with chemicals, to the shit that flies over from China, to the shit that smothers the cities from all the illegal factories in the hills, the petrochemical and coal plants, and incinerators. It’s too much and it isn’t getting better.

I think the country is stalled in so many ways, but that is pretty much the case around the world, with almost all major governments pretending climate change is nothing they have to deal with,that ramping up survelliance on their own people is necessary and justfied, and that social programs need dismantling to deal with bogus debt issues. The age of progressive politics is over everywhere.

On the other hand, I find so many young people very idealistic: they are going out and starting little businesses to free themselves, and fighting for social justice, and generally just wanting a better Taiwan. It’s encouraging. It’s not everyone of course, but if you aren’t meeting these kinds of people then you need to expand your social circles.

I still think there is something special about Taiwan, the little country that became a major industrial player and also a vibrant democracy. I like that women and men are more or less equal, that ordinary people do not have to suck up to politicians, that people don’t pull rank on each other at every step, that no one calls me “sir” because of the baggage of their colonial history, that something like animal rights can take hold, and that as a foreigner I can blend in if I want to. People in the neighborhood always saw me as a foreigner, but not as an outsider.

Taiwan is still home to me, but whether I will make it my residence again is uncertain.

31

Yeah, but that’s London - culturally one of the greatest cities in the world; probably only New York is in the same league. Taipei may not be as good as those two, but it’s not bad (and if you speak Chinese, it’s probably fantastic). You can go to basically any city in the world and complain “Well, culturally it’s not as good as New York.” That’d be like watching a film and complaining “I didn’t like it because it wasn’t as good as The Godfather.”

OK, culture in Taichung, yeah, that’s poor. And probably would remain poor if you compare it to second-tier Anglophone cities like Birmingham or St. Louis.

On reading: every time I go to eslite here I’m swearing in my head at all the people sitting on the floor reading, getting in my way and blocking the books I want to look at.

You’re right that the increasing house prices are a serious problem for younger people today, but that’s not necessarily a big issue for those of us who have been here a long while; many long-termers are already on the property ladder, which makes the bubble less of an issue (until it pops!).

There does seem to be a bit of a malaise over the country, but as I already said, I don’t think that’s unique to Taiwan at all.[/quote]

So okay we all have different set-ups? But let me put it to you, if you were to lose your job what would happen? Would it be easy to find another one here? How would you feel about the place then?

How would you feel if you didn’t have that property going up in price but going down, along with your income? This is all possible by the way. Would Taipei or Taiwan still have enough for you to stick around?

32

I’m getting tired too, 12 years. Taiwan’s been great to me but… Canada’s calling me back. I hear there’s work in Alberta and I’ve got family in Calgary. I’ve been away so long I feel like an alien when I get back for a visit.

33

I always find it hard to understand why there are so many Canadians here? Like , why Taiwan dude? Everybody is moving to Canada!

34

A lot of us came in the 90s when Canada was experiencing a massive economic crisis, high youth unemployment, and newspapers ran headlines such as “Is this the end of Canada?”

Gloomy stuff. However, ten years later Canada was booming and full of hope so I wouldn’t right Taiwan off at the moment.

35

Having been here for about 3 years I guess that I’m not even close to be considered a “longtermer”, but I feel like I’m dying for getting already at that fucked country where I come from and eat huge amounts jamón, chorizo, salchichón, good real queso, cocido, real pan, and drink incredible amounts of cerveza and vino tinto and jerez and explode that like fat man on that Monty Python’s classic. If I can have a chance to kill some politicians then I’ll be fine here in Taiwan again.

36

I’m jobpervious because I hatched my own job and have enough eggs incubating that I’ve got enough to keep me busy the rest of my lifetime. All I need out of a place is the wherewithal to turn my eggs into chickens and Taiwan fits that beak . . . er, bill.

If I ever lost my job mojo I’d learn, garden and paint all day and drink beer at night.

37

There’s a lot in your post that’s worth discussing and hope you are enjoying your new life in Malaysia at the moment.

I’ll give you that, you need to move in certain circles. I’m not interested in some of those activities personally. I could say arts and culture is divided between ‘elitist arts’ and ‘working mans temple culture’ here. I place more emphasis on city festivals, international festivals, music festivals, street theatre, it’s going to be a hard ask in isolated Taiwan.
Taipei is a decent place to live, but it’s turning into a retirement home with good food and quiet neighbourhoods for rich folks.

Yes Taiwan is very peaceful and easy going compared to some of those places. But I wouldn’t write off what happens as theatrical (as I’m sure you don’t mean that completely), the country is in danger of disappearing as an independent entity and peoples ID and cultural affiliations and liveliehoods are all affected. The danger of violence is low, but some type of war until recently was very much a possibility. Things aren’t quite normal here for good reasons.

Yes that’s one of my main problems too, along with the poor working conditions and pay. This is their land, but they don’t respect it. If you don’t respect your home, don’t expect others to respect it for you. If you don’t respect your land, don’t expect it not to be taken off of you.

[quote]I think the country is stalled in so many ways, but that is pretty much the case around the world, with almost all major governments pretending climate change is nothing they have to deal with,that ramping up survelliance on their own people is necessary and justfied, and that social programs need dismantling to deal with bogus debt issues. The age of progressive politics is over everywhere.
[/quote]

Yes all is not well everywhere in the world, but I think there is more optimism overseas. I also think there is more cohesiveness and at least they usually have a national identity.

Perhaps, I don’t run into those people usually. Most of the time I run into crusty old factory owners or over worked managers and employees.

That’s good, but nothing special at the same time. And people here very much suck up to local politicians, in fact they like to take and give money to them all the time. :cactus:

I know that feeling.

One thing I’d like to emphasise is I don’t like the way people in Taipei think they can live in a silo to the rest of the country, even foreigners do this.

You can’t just hide away from the neglect and environmental pollution and say it doesn’t affect me. It does and we are living on the same island. I can show you the factories mixed with farmland here just on the edge of Taiwan’s third biggest city and extending into Changhua and Yunlin, it’s appalling. Your food comes from there. There’s no regulations. I’ve not even mentioned problems in Pingdong and Kaoshiung and Tainan. I also find it extremely unfair how Taipei sucks up tax revenue from poorer places, that’s just not right. In fact I’d say it says something very unsettling about the government and people in power.

And if the rest of the country gets turned into industrial parks or left to stagnate where are people going to go when they want to get out of the city , say for travel or retirement. Not everybody can emigrate.

38

This. Absolutely this.[/quote]

I knew it was all going to boil down to “convenient” in the end. And it’s true.

39

One thing with festivals and events etc, I often open the TT on a Monday morning to find a report on a festival that took place the day before that I knew nothing about. And as part of my job, I have to at least skim all the various news sources daily. I don’t think it’s so much festivals aren’t on, it’s that they’re not advertised.

40

That reminds me of how back in the day I always missed the CNY celebrations in my city. Who could have said by then that this was going to be compensated so greatly? :smiley: