I didn’t say you gave me a laugh. I think it is just bordering on the ridiculous to say the DPP are radical and unprofessional and that’s why they lose to the party that believes it is the rightful government of China and Mongolia, worships a mass murderer, wants to unite with an authoritarian regime, and has economic policies out of the 60s.
There is no such thing as a DPP China policy that would be acceptable to China with the sole exception of agreeing to One China. Why is that so hard for people to grasp? Voters in Taiwan know that and are pragmatic.
I think that for a while the Ma admin was able to convince voters that it was composed of superior technocrats and seasoned politicians but that patina of professionalism has been stripped bare. Like I have said repeatedly, I don’t think either party has the vision or skill to lead Taiwan out of its political and economic mess (though there is no doubt the DPP have superior environmental policies). This doesn’t mean I have to pretend that the party with more “gentlemen” is somehow superior.
So why does the DPP lose to KMT when election time rolls around? I am sorry but it is not ridiculous to say people don’t want their elected representatives to fight every day. Most people appreciated the DPP’s previous fighting to get this democracy to where it is now. However, now the people want DPP to move forward and develop good proposals/plans for Taiwan. My definition of radical and unprofessional is grabbing microphones, throwing things at people, fighting, etc. If the DPP spent less time doing that and putting forth constructive proposals they would get respect. I do not believe that every time the DPP is fighting is because of some horrible trick the KMT is trying to pull.
Yes, Taiwanese are pragmatic so they reject DPP stance regarding China. The majority of people just want to avoid this trouble. Why is this reality so hard for DPP to grasp?
"…the party that believes it is the rightful government of China and Mongolia, worships a mass murderer, wants to unite with an authoritarian regime, and has economic policies out of the 60s. " Please…if everyone held this viewpoint, then KMT would certainly lose every election. I believe that stance was accurate until about 10 years ago.
Well, rejecting the DPPs stance on China unfortunately leads to the absorption of Taiwan into China, and not on the KMTs terms at all. What a dilemma! Avoiding making China upset in case they invade and take over leads to China taking over by being invited through the front door. Hobson’s choice, innit?
I don’t know. I ain’t saying you’re wrong, but if things have changed, the change is hard to see sometimes.
[quote][color=#000080]A government document ordering schools’ procurement of teaching materials that mark Nanjing as the capital of the Republic of China (ROC)[/color] and Taipei as the current location of the central government indicated President Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) administration’s persistent attempts to promote the links between Taiwan and China, as well as the administration’s misinterpretation of the Constitution, lawmakers and academics said yesterday.[/quote]–Chris Wang, “Schools to teach Nanjing is ROC capital: ministry,” Taipei Times, December 4, 2013 taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003578264
[quote][color=#000080]Last year a retired general sparked a furor when he said, quote, “the ROC Army and the PLA are both part of China’s army.”[/color] Now Hsia Ying-chou 夏瀛洲 is back in the news, this time for saying that the [color=#000080]ROC Army and China’s People’s Liberation Army both want to unite the Chinese people.[/color] Today lawmakers slammed Hsia while the Ministry of National Defense distanced itself from the former general.[/quote]–“Retired general says ROC Army’s goal is unification,” Formosa News, February 10, 2012 englishnews.ftv.com.tw/read.aspx … 62B86EE879
[quote][color=#000080]Former Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) chairman Wu Poh-hsiung /color yesterday met with [color=#000080]Chinese President Hu Jintao[/color] (胡錦濤) in Beijing at the annual forum between the KMT and Chinese Communist Party (CCP), during which he proposed that cross-strait matters be tackled under the banner of “[color=#000080]one country, two areas[/color] (一國兩區).”
Both Wu and Hu stressed the importance of continued cross-strait development under the “one China” principle. Wu said the two sides had different interpretations of “one China,” but both agreed to seek a consensus and put aside their disputes.[/quote]–Mo Yan-chih, “‘One country, two areas’ proposed by Wu Po-hsiung,” Taipei Times, March 23, 2012 taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003528495
[quote][color=#000080]President-elect Ma Ying-jeou[/color] (馬英九) of the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) [color=#000080]bowed in front of dictator Chiang Kai-shek’s (蔣介石) mausoleum[/color] yesterday to commemorate the anniversary of his death, a departure from the outgoing Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) government’s efforts to distance itself from the late leader.[/quote]–Staff, with AP and CNA, “Ma Ying-jeou pays respects to CKS,” Taipei Times, April 6, 2008 taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003408526
[quote][color=#000080]President-elect Ma Ying-jeou stands between the legs of a giant Chiang Kai-shek statue[/color] at the late dictator’s mausoleum in Tzuhu in Taoyuan County yesterday.[/quote]–Taipei Times, April 6, 2008 taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2008024102
I hate to tell, you but they do. Ask anyone die-hard supporter of the KMT if Taiwan and China are separate countries. Ask them if Chiang Kai-shek was a good leader. Ask them what good economic policies the Ma administration has brought in its 6 years in office. They will have answers, but those answers might be at odds with reality.
I’m not defending the DPP. But the KMT isn’t exactly a bunch of saviors.
People don’t vote DPP because this is Taiwan, where the majority of the public is afraid of rocking the boat. The DPP at one point wanted Taiwanese independence. Now they just want the ROC and PRC to coexist. But either one of those is seen by Beijing as a justification for attack.
In a country where people voluntarily stay at work until midnight because they don’t want to upset the boss, do you really think people will vote for the party that challenges the status quo? There’s a reason that there is a generational divide in both politics and the way people make their demands; I honestly believe the older generation is largely still bound by Confucianist ideals of submitting to your masters. You’d be amazed at how many people I’ve heard (or heard of) saying that freedom of speech isn’t very important compared to stability. We’re not exactly dealing with a bunch of Bravehearts here.
You do realize that the people doing this are voted representatives? So yeah it is working for some voters to have their elected officials act this way.
Not sure what you mean. The majority of Taiwanese actually are in complete agreement with the DPP’s stance that Taiwan and China are separate countries and should remain that way.
[quote]
"…the party that believes it is the rightful government of China and Mongolia, worships a mass murderer, wants to unite with an authoritarian regime, and has economic policies out of the 60s. " Please…if everyone held this viewpoint, then KMT would certainly lose every election. I believe that stance was accurate until about 10 years ago.[/quote]
Er, you misunderstood. I was pointing that YOU think the party above is the more professional and rational. And yes, everything above refers to current actions and policies.
Overall, I think most Taiwanese just want the DPP to tone down the independence rhetoric. Most Taiwanese believe Taiwan is an independent country (except for those old fart KMT guys and some die hard KMTers). The day people see Taiwan being really prepared for China “consumption” the KMT will fall like a rock into oblivion and Taiwanese will just hunker down for the fight if China really wants to invade.
What I really fear is that the DPP lacks other things to talk about. They don’t give me the impression they are sitting down and coming out with constructive proposals about other issues. We need their involvement and brains to help sort out all the issues Taiwan faces…
time for those Taiwanese students to start saving money to buy airline tickets to Beijing…
just in case China and Taiwan become one country… the students will occupy the Forbidden City until China and Taiwan agree not to re-unite.
(the protest should last about 30 seconds before they are rounded up and never to be heard from again)
[quote=“FurTrader”]time for those Taiwanese students to start saving money to buy airline tickets to Beijing…
just in case China and Taiwan become one country… the students will occupy the Forbidden City until China and Taiwan agree not to re-unite.
(the protest should last about 30 seconds before they are rounded up and never to be heard from again)[/quote]
[quote=“Flakman”]Overall, I think most Taiwanese just want the DPP to tone down the independence rhetoric. Most Taiwanese believe Taiwan is an independent country (except for those old fart KMT guys and some die hard KMTers). The day people see Taiwan being really prepared for China “consumption” the KMT will fall like a rock into oblivion and Taiwanese will just hunker down for the fight if China really wants to invade.
What I really fear is that the DPP lacks other things to talk about. They don’t give me the impression they are sitting down and coming out with constructive proposals about other issues. We need their involvement and brains to help sort out all the issues Taiwan faces…[/quote]
Again, average every day people may feel this way, but the government and the older generation do not. “Of course the mainland is part of the Republic of China,” says everyone over 45 I talk to.
^ Yep, those 45+ must be the die hard KMT supporters. There are a lot of 45+ Taiwanese, who are “Taiwan is an independent country.” Both in Taiwan and abroad.
That’s a fair point, but as far as voters go, the 45+ers who support the KMT make up about 60% or more. And while young people seem overwhelmingly to support the DPP, there simply aren’t enough of them to make a difference.
^ I don’t believe the 60% part (since most of the island believes in independence), but I do know a lot of the older people, who voted for KMT, did not do it because they believe in KMT’s goals. A lot of the women voted for Ma just for his “good” looks. Other older people only voted for the status quo in order to remain unofficially independent. Then, you got to factor in all the Taiwanese business men, who came back from China, or does business with China, just to save their investments so they vote KMT for greed. This is why, I have to think some of the older Taiwanese can be pretty stupid if they don’t wake up.
And really… This has nothing to do with DPP. The younger generation can care less about both KMT and DPP. They solely believe Taiwan as a country. In the future, the older pure KMT supporters will die out. The younger generation will slowly take their place. This is the evolution of a young country. The potential’s there and it’s only going to get stronger as long as they don’t give up.
Lee Tung-Hui ruined the KMT party’s reputation. He’s the one who endorsed and participated in high level black gold politics in the 90’s. He was not pro-democracy. Just pro-green.
Ma is just not handling things well despite good intentions.
Yup. What choice do the people have? The DPP? Yeah, right. The DPP had promise before Chen came along and ruined the party. And now Ma is doing the same to the KMT, which had been improving under Lee. Two parties ruined in less than a decade.
The KMT fulfilled Dr Sun Yat-sen’s dreams and promise of a fully functioning democratic Republic of China. President Chiang was quite good friends with PM Lee Kwan Yew, there was nothing to stop President Chiang from turning Taiwan into another Singapore instead of the free society it is today.
The early ROC was a series of local warlords ganging together to overthrow a dying empire and lord it over the peasants (and left unchecked, the KMT would have given rise to another dynasty and a new Emperor: just look a the Chiangs). And when they didn’t agree with each other, they assassinated each other and continued the serial corruption that Chinese culture is famous for (not that other cultures don’t go in for that sort of thing either).
You need to take your blinkers of blind patriotism and adherence to KMT-era textbooks of history off, methinks.
There are a lot of 45+ Taiwanese, who are “Taiwan is an independent country.” Both in Taiwan and abroad.