I DO respect all Taiwanese citizens believe it or not, cctang.
(and believe me, I don’t bite those whose opinion are different from mine… in real life!) 
After all, that’s what democracy is all about, isn’t it?
Thanks for an enlightening ‘debate’! 
ROC citizens are often dual citizens.
But imagine with 1 million ROC citizens in the PRC there exist an individual ROC citizen who has resided in the PRC for over 10 years on a Taibaozhen. Married a PRC citizen, feels that the PRC took them in with open arms to pursue opportunities.
This individual whose family roots on Taiwan go back 400 hundred years, also feel as strongly that they are Chinese as well as Taiwanese.
Is this individual
OK, I know I am a not a Taiwanese (actually I am Portuguese), so I am also from a country who has a young democracy and has lived for 40 years under the rule of a tyrant. The only diference is that we are one of the oldest countries in Europe…
As in Portugal, the development of Taiwan is because of 2 things: external aid and cheap labour. Portugal is actually too far from Central Europe (specially the big 4) to be intouch with most of theyr resemblance.
Anyway, and you can ask this to any Portuguese anywhere in the world, we are and will allways be Portuguese. Although I lived some years in central Europe, I never let myself be anything else than Portuguese. Even in Taiwan, I still drink Portuguese coffee made in a Portuguese expresso machine. So I deeply believe that most of the people who came with KMT still feel very Chinese, and proud of theyr history.
But what history has Taiwan? I kindly ask this, because… I was born and lived 18 years in a World Heritage Place (Porto), and we feel, breath and live our history everyday, but in Taiwan, that is very hard… in Taipei, specially, you cannot really get this felling, no matter where you look. So all the history Taiwan has is a sort of abandonnement from Mainland, no matter how you look at it.
How many buildings are in Taiwan classified by the Unesco?
Why does it feel to me so strange that even a small place like Macau, who was months away from the governning country, has a lot more history than Taiwan? Can anyone explain me a valid reason why did China look away for 500 years from this island? What history did China left in Taiwan?
When you talk about your long history of the dinasties in China, may I ask if should English be proud of The Louvre? Should French be proud of pizzas? Should Italian be proud of sausages? Can anyone take some time and explain me what is this that makes people living in Taiwan being so proud of Chinese history? If it is because of the time this island was barelly occupied by China, shouldn’t also they be proud of Japanese History? From what I heard, read and saw, Japanese did a lot more for this Island than Chinese did. So why don’t I hear people saying that they are also proud of that part of theyr history? And if it is because of the hate because of the occupation times from the Japanese in WW2, then, I don’t know where to start talking about possible hate against chinese…
This is barelly a pov from a waiguoren in Taipei, I don’t mean to offend anyone, but I allways think that people are using blinders when talking about politics in Taiwan…
mr_boogie,
I think your assertion that Taiwan has no history is really a reflection of your own biased perspective.
From the point of physical construction, there’s no doubt that there’s little “traditional legacy” left over from the imperial days left in Taiwan. But history and “identity” is much more about shared culture and history than buildings.
I can only guess you’ve never been to the Palace Museum, and have never looked at a Taiwanese students’ typical course load. I doubt you’ll find many Taiwanese students who couldn’t tell you about the history of the Qin, the Tang, the Ming, and the Qing. I doubt you’ll find many who haven’t read the classics of Chinese literature. You even bring up “pizza” and “sausages”; surely you understand that the Chinese (and/or Taiwanese) are very proud of their cuisine, and there’s no dish found in mainland China that couldn’t be found in Taiwan today, and vice-versa.
You compare Macau and Taiwan, and believe Macau has more “history” (which I assume you mean “Portugese” history). If you mean old colonial buildings, you’re certainly right about that. But how many residents in Macau speak Portugese? How many understand Portugese history + culture? How many residents in Macau cook Portugese cuisine on a nightly basis? How many have read the great works of Portugese writers, whatever that might be? When Macau grandparents are passing on their heritage via stories to the next generations, what are they telling? Chinese fairytales, or Portugese fairytales?
How, pray tell, do you define “history”?
Golly!
I consider myself ethnically Chinese and politically Taiwanese, yet some here would classify me as a mainlander because my paternal grandparents were driven out of Taiwan by the Communists and oh yes…mainlander because they have a bluish tinge in their political alliance.
Aren’t 2nd, 3rd generation 外省人 considered Taiwanese? True, I’m 2nd generation 外省人 on oneside yet on the other I’m 8th generation 本省人…gee why does it have to revolve around that?
To hell with the internal warfare…we all love Taiwan, isn’t that enough?
[quote=“eissua”]Golly!
To hell with the internal warfare…we all love Taiwan, isn’t that enough?[/quote]
Not to xenophobic Hoklo chauvunists. The DPP has completely pissed on LTH’s “New Taiwanese” mantra. The DPP only care about their own kind. I’ve seen pro-DPP mainlanders in powerful positions pushed to the sidelines because of the inherent racism evident in a lot, not all(to be fair), of DPP government officials.
Foreigners used to be one of the DPP’S biggest supporters. Although they can’t vote, 90 percent or more of foreigners are pro green. I think their support is misguided. Look at how they are repaid. MRT labor abuses, illegal lunch hour working and severe administrative racism in my case, and the tightening of visa and immigration regulations for all foreigners. Basically, they care about internqtional support as long as it is by foreigners outside of Taiwan. They think the foreigners in Taiwan are white monkeys.
[quote]Aren’t 2nd, 3rd generation 外省人 considered Taiwanese? True, I’m 2nd generation 外省人 on oneside yet on the other I’m 8th generation 本省人…gee why does it have to revolve around that?
[/quote]
If that is case then why did 本省人, especially of those that identify with the Taiwanlang label, consider Lien Chan to be an outsider? A non-Taiwanese. Just because of his place of birth. The same goes for Mayor Ma.
Once a Taiwanlang find out about any 外省人 mixing in an individual you are considered the “other.”
Once a Taiwanlang discover you have a dual citizenship, you are also considered unloyal and must give up your foreign citizenship to advance in their eyes.
This reminds me of a joke where a woman is being fed “fragrant meat” and her companion ask her “Do you like dogs?”
“Why yes I love dogs,” she replies.
“That’s good. Everyone loves dogs in their own way,” the companion replies.
cctang
When I was talking about history I was talking about heritage, and what did China gave Taiwan in the past 300-400 years. How much did China for this island and it’s development?
I don’t know if you have ever been to Macau, but can you please tell me what are the things that make it different? Can you tell me what makes Hong Kong different? How many Macanese and Hong Kong people consider thamselves “Chinese”? Although they might not speak fluent Portuguese and English, I bet with you that many of the are proud of theyr heritage.
But in Taiwan, people are only proud of part of theyr heritage… How much are you proud of Portuguese, Dutch, German, English, Spanish and Japanese? All of them are part of this Island history and heritage but almost no one ever mentions them.
Isn’t that your culture also? Or only the one from China counts?
I spoke about sausages and pizza just as examples, not as real food… they are in the same sentence as The Louvre.
For Italians, Pizza is not food, is a way of living, a symbol of theyr country that you can recognize it everywhere as italian.
I guess you are very proud of the Chinese history and culture that has been passed to you, but shouldn’t you also be proud of all the rest?
Taiwan is known for it’s hot springs, however, that is Japanese legacy, no?
I wonder, if people had to choose between being Japanese or Chinese, how it would be…
mr_boogie, there have been many discussions on this exact topic already, so I won’t rehash the arguments – you can do a search for your own edification.
What TI/ers do well (and it’s about the only thing they do well) is they have put out a shitload of propaganda in English. I call it the TI bible, but it’s mostly revisionist history and semantic games. One of the most egregious examples of this that summarizes the entire nature of TI propaganda is the invented English term “native Taiwanese.”
Faux-native Taiwanese, as they were, are descended from Han Chinese of the Fujian Province of mainland China who trickled in over the years, and whose lineage lived in Taiwan for no more than a dozen generations, and in many cases far less. They’ve always lived as ethnic and cultural Chinese until the very last years of Japan’s colonization (1940s). By far the largest and most fundamental influence on Taiwan has been from mainland China. Japan certainly makes a mark, too. As for influences of pre-contemporary Europeans, there is basically none. And true aboriginal Taiwanese have nearly completely assimilated to Han Chinese culture. Such is the state of ethnography in Taiwan.
I’m not pro Independence or whatever, as most of my thoughts are purely in a European way …
I think that what the KMT wants, by cutting a deal with the chinese, is to insure theyr position over Taiwan, more than anything else (wasn’t it the reason why CKS had a Martial Law in Taiwan, so that he could rule it as it liked?). Although Ma is saying that he wants the KMT to work for the people and not for themselves, I find that most dificult, because unless you are a firm left winger (extreme or close to that), you will never do that…
When asked to name the chief qualification a politician should have, Sir Winston Churchill replyed: “It’s the ability to
foretell what will happen tomorrow, next month, and next year — and to explain afterward why it didn’t happen.”
Really good points - it is really incredible how successful the TI movement has been, especially in the English speaking world. The green camp has done an amazing job in promoting TI primarily through English media. A marvelous barrage of fabricated terms (true-Taiwanese, Taiwanese consciousness, probably even Taiwanese-milk tea for that matter) strategically placed in news articles; they have got a lot of unsuspecting people onto their bandwagon.
Its kind of sad they have to invite foreign academics (conveniently white) to promote their cause because people that should (Taiwanese) don’t like any of their radical ideas.
The TI movement is wholly dependent on US support, if Washington decided to scrap the TRA one day - negotiations with Beijing would begin immediately.
[quote]If that is case then why did 本省人, especially of those that identify with the Taiwanlang label, consider Lien Chan to be an outsider? A non-Taiwanese. Just because of his place of birth. The same goes for Mayor Ma.
Once a Taiwanlang find out about any 外省人 mixing in an individual you are considered the “other.”
Once a Taiwanlang discover you have a dual citizenship, you are also considered unloyal and must give up your foreign citizenship to advance in their eyes. [/quote]
But why does it matter at all, why does there have to be labelling between people born on the same island.
Stuffed either way, the “other” and disloyal… :s
[quote=“phibert”]Really good points - it is really incredible how successful the TI movement has been, especially in the English speaking world. The green camp has done an amazing job in promoting TI primarily through English media. A marvelous barrage of fabricated terms (true-Taiwanese, Taiwanese consciousness, probably even Taiwanese-milk tea for that matter) strategically placed in news articles; they have got a lot of unsuspecting people onto their bandwagon.
Its kind of sad they have to invite foreign academics (conveniently white) to promote their cause because people that should (Taiwanese) don’t like any of their radical ideas.
[/quote]
I disagree with this assertion. The KMT has a lot more money and contacts overseas and generally news media organizations overseas are more sympathetic to the KMT. TI has support from certain politicians (particularly in the US Congress) and by a number of academics, but I would totally disagree with your comments on its success with the media. In fact, I think many people in the DPP have great difficulty in communicating in English and have trouble communicating with and relating to foreigners. Furthermore, considering their poor administrative skills in government, I really don’t think they could handle themselves successfully in the rough-and-tumble media world outside of Taiwan. 
That is why they pay a PR firm in the US a million dollars a year.
I think it is amazing that despite the DPP’s xenophobia, corruption, and nativism, a lot of international people and foreigners still think they are the party of human rights and view them in a favorable light.
Of course DPP members such as Tsai Ing-wen and some members with lots of international experience or previous government experience are an exception and can easily integrate within international society. However, they are in the minority in the party IMHO.
mr_boogie,
It’s not a question of the Taiwanese being “proud” of only part of their heritage. It’s about Chinese heritage dominating the heck out of the other stuff that’s being passed off as being key parts of Taiwanese heritage. You must be new to Taiwan if you buy much of the alternate propaganda.
Are you seriously pondering whether Hong Kong’ers and Macau’ers consider themselves to be Chinese? There are academic polls on this matter, and you should look them up. There are certainly Hong Kong’ers who believe their community to be unique, but I feel confident in saying that only a tiny fringe minority would recognize themselves to be “British”. The ability to speak English has nothing to do with it.
You’re Portugese, right? Does that mean you also take pride and celebrate your Roman heritage, your Germanic heritage, and your Moorish heritage? I assure you that Moorish influence on Portugal is far more significant than the (non-existent) Dutch heritage on Taiwan.
I do think its fair to recognize the Japanese influence in modern Taiwan, but again, this is a minor affect. The Taiwanese speak a dialect of Chinese, read and write Chinese, eat Chinese food, celebrate Chinese holidays/festivals/rituals, trace their ancestors directly back to mainland Chinese villages (including Chen Shui-bian himself), learn Chinese history, recite Chinese poetry, read Chinese literature, and draw Chinese art. This isn’t me being “proud” of Chinese heritage: this is me speaking the truth, objectively.
Explain this to me again. You’re questioning why the Taiwanese seem to celebrate their Chinese heritage, and wonder why they don’t celebrate their “Portugese, Dutch, German, English, and Spanish” heritage. What heritage? Beyond historical trivia, pray tell, in what way does any of that “historical heritage” influence any aspect of Taiwanese society today?
Thanks to the past 100 years or so, there are certainly clear cultural + social differences between mainland China and Taiwan. Japanese influences in Taiwan can’t be denied, nor can Taiwan’s greater exposure to Western culture over the past 20 years, and mainland China’s Communist/Leninist history of the past 50 years. But if you want to talk about historical heritage differences between “Taiwan” and “China”, you’re grasping at straws.
[quote=“cctang”]
Explain this to me again. You’re questioning why the Taiwanese seem to celebrate their Chinese heritage, and wonder why they don’t celebrate their "Portugese, Dutch, German, English, and Spanish" heritage. What heritage? Beyond historical trivia, pray tell, in what way does any of that “historical heritage” influence any aspect of Taiwanese society today?[/quote]
Hahaha. Little do you know. I guess you’ve never been into a a KFC in Taiwan, have you? I’ll bet you’ve never had a PORTUGuESE EGG TART, have you? Sheesh. If that’s not a celebration of Portuguese culture, then I don’t know what is. You mainlanders just don’t understand Portuguese-Taiwanese-KFC culture. 
Jive Turkey…
I think most people believe that Egg Tarts are from Macau, invented by Margaret… (although the name of the place is “Cafe e Nata”, which means “Coffee and cream”… although Nata is also the common portuguese name of Egg Tart and the normal way of having egg tarts in Portugal is with an expresso coffee (and that is basically the only coffee you find in Portugal)). You can find info on the originals (since 1837) in the web page www.pasteisdebelem.pt.
I wonder how many people in Taiwan know and can tell correctly the international names of the Islands… (and by correctly I mean it trully).
Other fact is that Taiwanese must be proud of theyr history of loosers - that is what came to the Island. First was Koxinga then it was KMT. Both of them retreat to Taiwan after loosing in China.
About the American Heritage, that is the one you must be most proud of. At least, they invested in the development of the Island more than anyone else. But I also guess that most of the true “Taiwanese polititians” are proud of US, specially of theyr US passport…
And yeah, you know, we are proud of our ancestors legacy, all of them…
Fenician, Mourish, Roman, Visigods, Celts, and all the hundreds and all of the civilizations that passed in the Iberian Peninsula. In fact, we are so proud of it, that we show it in our own language, and that is the reason why Portuguese is such a dificult language.
Oh, dear 
…hey people, I am the culprit who opened this can of worms… 
I really, honestly didn’t mean any disrespect to Chinese/Taiwanese!
However… can anyone please tell me why the Taiwanese can’t retain the Chinese culture but form a different state to …China? (much like the US AND UK). There are ample examples where people of the same ethnic background form different nations. So what is it that Taiwan can’t just be Taiwan?
Sorry, cctang, I wasn’t going to continue this debate any more…forgive me, I am just curious as to what you (and others) think of my question? You have my promise that whatever the answer might be, you have my utmost respect!
You can talk about Taiwan’s Chinese culture, history of Chinese influence etc, and it is all true. But accepting all that, what makes Taiwan clearly different from other destinations of Chinese emigration during the past few hundred years? The Chinese in Sabah happily identify as Chinese (and Malaysian of course). Same in Singapore, Indonesia, and a bunch of other places. Nobody argues that these Chinese communities should be somehow reassimilated with the wonderful motherland.
It is hard to know for sure. But I think the earliest Chinese migrants to Taiwan likely felt they were leaving China behind them and going to a totally new place, much the same as those who migrated to Borneo etc. The difference between the two cases is that the Chinese empire eventually expanded to include those who emigrated to Taiwan. It depends on how you interpret things, but maybe the Taiwanese really did get a raw deal.
And in more recent times the Mainlanders, while most of them are indoctrinated to believe Taiwan is theirs, simultaneously see the inhabitants as some kind of impure second grade Chinese. Just look at how the KMT treated the place. And even today alot of Mainlanders lothe the Taiwanese (they often point out that the guys ‘short ugly dwarves’ etc). There is even this idea that Taiwanese are somehow physically different to Mainlanders and have a higher sex drive (must come from all the time they spend in KTVs on the Mainland, and maybe from old CCP propaganda about loose morals in Taiwan under the KMT).
I just think the situation is far more complicated than people on either side tend to believe. Numerous shades of grey rather than a black and white.
Well the heart of the matter is that TI is the one using the cultural “uniqueness” of Taiwan as the corner stone to their argument on why there should be an ROTaiwan. Most people who are against TI will usually cite these “uniqueness” as being somewhat frabricated in the greater Chinese nation.
Since one can see that HK, Macau, and Singapore are also also unique islands in the region dominated by Chinese culture. But very few will cite that they are not Chinese as the reason why these territories are independent of the PRC. Or in the case of HK and Macau why they are governed under a different set of protocols than the mainland.
ROC is a different State than the PRC. No one denies that. The argument on Taiwan is unique because TI supporters want to dissolve the ROC in favor of a de jure independent entity, like ROT.
It boils down to how one believe the “Strait Issue” caused by the Chinese Civil War, between the KMT and CCP, should be resolved. On one side you have people who believe a conciliatory stance should be taken with the PRC. On the other side you have people who believe an inflammatory stance should be taken with the PRC.
The draw back to the concilitory stance with the PRC is that ROC will officially need to enter PRC sphere of influence and admit it lost the Chinese Civil War to some capacity. The draw back to the inflammatory stance is that the USA (and most 1st world nations) is not interested in entering a war with PRC over Taiwan at this time.
[quote]But why does it matter at all, why does there have to be labelling between people born on the same island.
Stuffed either way, the “other” and disloyal… [/quote]
Because that is the way it has been on the island for hundreds of years.
The racial politics on the island is basically broken down into four groups
- Hoklo
- WSR
- Hakka
- Aboriginal
It is the ugly side to Taiwan life one could say. It is rarely discussed in English.
When a politician on Taiwan talks about Taiwanese and Taiwan consciousness. What they are saying is be more Hoklo because Hoklo are the majority on the island.
To some extent their racial politics parallel White extremist politics in the West. The White/Taiwanese culture is threaten by more immigrants diluting our culture. The White/Taiwanese children are not proud to be White/Taiwanese because of certain government policy.
In the west there is usually enough diversity training to spot this kind of race politics as being a threat to stable society. On Taiwan this type of racial politics is seen as acceptable. Hoklo/White that don’t stick together are seen as race traitors.
On Taiwan is all about the Taro vs. Sweet potato even to this day.