Straits Chinese perhaps?
Taipeidawg: [color=green]would you say you are Chinese, Chinese Malaysian, Malaysian Chinese, or Malaysian?[/color]
- Depends on how you ask and;
- in what situation I’m in
I usually describe myself as “Chinese”; regardless of nationality. To me, nationality is not important because we migrate from one place to another ANY TIME when our host nation do not appreciate us or where better opportunity lies.
When I try to be more specific about my nationality to a foreigner, even to Chinese from Singapore, Indonesia, China, Australia…etc., I’d use the term “Malaysian Chinese”. Over here, we don’t use the term Chinese-Malaysian.
In certain situation where ethnicity is not required to be known, I’d say “Malaysian”. Just that
so, Taike, you do realise that you are another example of this whole Chinese confusion between ethnicity and nationality? and how racist (in terms of the dominant factor determining one’s outlook, rather than specifically in terms of discrimination) that seems to the less-nationalist/ethnocentric people of the world?
when someone asks me what i call myself, i say Australian, even though i am not ethnically Australian, nor Australian by birth. I lived there most of my life, and I was naturalised an Australian many many moons ago. but for you, the ethnicity trumps your passport. i think that this is the absolute root of the problem that we see demonstrated so vividly by Chinese ethnic communities all across the world, but especially in terms of the sticky relationship between this country of Taiwan and that big one called China, across the straits.
sure it may be important to have an idea of and an identity with your cultural heritage, but to arrogantly refer to your city of residence by the name that it is known as in chinese, rather than its real name, is somehow jarring to many of us, and makes us wonder how we can ever get on with Chinese (in this case, ‘ethnic chinese’ is the intended meaning). the fact that you answer people who ask more specifically about your nationality as ‘malaysian chinese’ only serves to underline that ethnic arrogance. why don’t you want to be part of Malaysia, your home country? what is wrong with being Malaysian? is it for this reason that the Chinese are resented in Malaysia? why is being malaysian at the bottom of your list?
I prefer to think of China as “Festland China”, which is German and translates to “Mainland China”.
However, “Festland” really means something like “firm land”.
Our recent guest worker Sophia from China (name changed) had such a firm bottom and always when I think about China I think about her…
I miss her. I mean, all of her.
:lovestruck:
EDIT: sometimes I think about her Mainland as well…
I don’t see why being ethnocentric deserve more reprehension than being nationalist. The only reason it’s being treated that way is because you choose to see it from a negative perspective - a racist angle - instead of its cultural link and blood ties. I can’t deny my identity. If I am Chinese I will say I am Chinese. I don’t pretend to be politically correct because there’s no need for me to do that when I’m perfectly clear of what I believe in is moral and just and I certainly don’t think that Chinese are any better than other race. So, it doesn’t have that connotation of racial superiority to the meaning of being Chinese.
While you acknowledge the significance of keeping one’s identity with link to one’s cultural heritage, you also label it racist, condemning such a practise. This argument doesn’t make sense. Either you support the idea or you don’t. You can’t say it’s good (important) and in the same post say it’s bad (racist). Are you anti-diversity? There’s a term to describe such a thing, called ‘oxy-’ something. It is not an insult; at least to me. So it’s not a sinister attempt to level an insult. But it suits your proposition perfectly.
If being more assertive to one’s ethnic identity is considered as arrogant, even though with no discriminative intent exist in that sentiment, does it not also - perhaps even more so - apply to one who props up his own belief or value whilst deriding other’s innocuous belief or value? This behaviour is almost the same as the Malay supremacist (note that it does not necessarily mean ALL Malays; it refers specificaly to those who champions the notion of Malay supremacy) who thinks they’re the supreme race (Ketuanan Melayu) of the land.
You mentioned about the people of the world. Let me tell you about how the people of the world behaves.
Westerners usually put nationality before their ethnic race. People of Islamic faith tends to be more accepting of Muslims of their own sect (Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiya…etc.), then Muslims in general and then race. Chinese, mostly, see themselves as Chinese then nationality. Malays values race and religion (either one or both) more than nationality. Indians identify themselves first and foremost as Hindu then nationality and then race.
I call myself ‘Malaysian Chinese’ because over here we have the tendency - and in many cases it’s a must - to know what’s the other person’s specific race and I feel that most people, I believe, would also want to know whether I’m a Malay, Indian, indigenous people or Chinese. It makes thing convenient for people to identify who they’re talking to on the internet and it has become a habit for me to do that. Using just the term ‘Malaysian’ isn’t practical. And how do I know it offends you horribly? Even so, I won’t change myself because of you.
Many towns and cities in Malaysia, including Xinshan or Johor Bahru, were started and built by the Chinese. Is Malaysanising Chinese-built towns and cities more acceptable than recognising its actual identity and name like in Australia and New Zealand does?? Second, we feel more affectionate to call our city Xinshan or JB than it’s Malay name Johor Bahru because the Chinese people here speaks Chinese most of the time. How do you expect us to speak Chinese and then suddenly call the city Johor Bahru in the middle of the conversation?? Can I call your country Au Da Li Ya or Au Zhou ALL of the time when I speak English to you? Does it make any sense??
I’m used to get my wife telling me the Chinese name of countries that are not top20… and then me telling her the English name…
As for the Mainland China part, here is my drift:
- It is was Chinese people use in their language, so it is difficult for them to change it…
- It is not what westerners use (as Mainland China is not a correct assumption for the PRC) so we don’t use it…
Because people are talking in English, Mainland China shouldn’t be used, as it is a heavily political connotation, specially in Taiwan, but it can be hard for people to change… I just heard the news from CNN, and the guy from HKG specially referred China as “Mainland China”, when talking about the news of Taiwan… of course, saying “Mainland China” is also more politically correct if you are based in HKG, as referring Taiwan and China might be seen as equaling both places in status.
In the Portuguese islands, people call the Mainland as “Continent”, referring to the territory of Continental Portugal. There is no Mainland, as it is assumed that all the territory is Mainland…
from wikipedia:
“The term “the Continent” (capitalized), used predominantly in the European isles and peninsulas such as the British Isles, Sardinia, Sicily, and the Scandinavian Peninsula, means mainland Europe.[2]”
Da Lu can also be called Continental China. So lets switch over to saying that then, if the term ‘‘mainland’’ is corrupted?
Who cares if its China, Mainland China, Continental China, Bad Ass China or what? Its them versus us still 
Doesn’t anyone who calls China as Mainland China, simply agreeing that Taiwan is part of China? You wouldn’t call Mainland to another country, would you?
Whatever happened to “Red China?”
[quote=“Chris”]Whatever happened to “Red China?”[/quote] Probably went out of fashion with ‘Free China’ since they were polar opposites…
[quote=“Taiko”]I don’t see why being ethnocentric deserve more reprehension than being nationalist. The only reason it’s being treated that way is because you choose to see it from a negative perspective - a racist angle - instead of its cultural link and blood ties. I can’t deny my identity. If I am Chinese I will say I am Chinese. I don’t pretend to be politically correct because there’s no need for me to do that when I’m perfectly clear of what I believe in is moral and just and I certainly don’t think that Chinese are any better than other race. So, it doesn’t have that connotation of racial superiority to the meaning of being Chinese.
Westerners usually put nationality before their ethnic race. People of Islamic faith tends to be more accepting of Muslims of their own sect (Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiya…etc.), then Muslims in general and then race. Chinese, mostly, see themselves as Chinese then nationality. Malays values race and religion (either one or both) more than nationality. Indians identify themselves first and foremost as Hindu then nationality and then race.
I call myself ‘Malaysian Chinese’ because over here we have the tendency - and in many cases it’s a must - to know what’s the other person’s specific race and I feel that most people, I believe, would also want to know whether I’m a Malay, Indian, indigenous people or Chinese. It makes thing convenient for people to identify who they’re talking to on the internet and it has become a habit for me to do that. Using just the term ‘Malaysian’ isn’t practical. And how do I know it offends you horribly? Even so, I won’t change myself because of you.
Many towns and cities in Malaysia, including Xinshan or Johor Bahru, were started and built by the Chinese. Is Malaysanising Chinese-built towns and cities more acceptable than recognising its actual identity and name like in Australia and New Zealand does?? Second, we feel more affectionate to call our city Xinshan or JB than it’s Malay name Johor Bahru because the Chinese people here speaks Chinese most of the time. How do you expect us to speak Chinese and then suddenly call the city Johor Bahru in the middle of the conversation?? Can I call your country Au Da Li Ya or Au Zhou ALL of the time when I speak English to you? Does it make any sense??[/quote]
I don’t have a problem with people identifying with their race or culture. I don’t think it should trump nationality in most cases, though - especially in countries of larger scale immigration. I could walk around in the US referring to myself as English, or Irish, or German in order to distinguish myself from African or Asian Americans - or even Italian, French, or Hispanic Americans. Obviously, 99% of the time there’s no point. It would be even more ridiculous to live in Taiwan declaring that I’m anything but American. Yet, when I first arrived here I was attending a Mandarin class in which many of the students were ‘Chinese Indonesians’ shall we say. From their darker skin, facial features, accents, etc. it was obvious they were SE Asian - not from Taiwan or China. Yet when someone referred to them as Indonesians they got irate and insisted they were Chinese - not Indonesian. That struck me as being very one-sided. I am familiar with assimilation issues of overseas Chinese throughout SE Asia and there’s not necessarily any right or wrong.
Urodacus had a valid point about ‘confusion’ between race and nationality, which is especially pertinent here in Taiwan. There are those who identify with their race and also culture and history of China. But there are also those who identify with the place they live more than their race. Personally, I can identify with the latter more readily for reasons I have already stated. So, when somebody claims they are Taiwanese - to me there is absolutely nothing wrong with that and it in no way implies that they are of a distinct race as some are quick to assert. It’s just like me saying I am American - who in the world could criticize me and tell me I had no right to claim that?? It seems to me that people who insist that race must trump nationality are literally ‘racist’.
I used to teach at a medical university in Taipei. Admissions are very limited and the students are in the top few percent of the country academically. One day out of curiosity I asked the students how long their families had been in Taiwan. Almost every single one said anywhere from like 4 to 10 generations - or so long that they didn’t even have any idea. Now, could anyone really criticize them for referring to themselves as Taiwanese if they chose to? And what in the world does this ‘One Chinese’ rhetoric actually mean to them?
Ref Taipeidawg:
Yea, perhaps the indonesian chinese sense the tendency of taiwanese to look down on south east asian people, thus they say they are chinese, NOT indonesian.
Here in the bay area, they are fine telling everyone that they are indonesian. Im not far from DVC a very popular junior college that has quite a few indonesians.
[quote=“tommy525”]Ref Taipeidawg:
Yea, perhaps the indonesian Chinese sense the tendency of Taiwanese to look down on south east Asian people, thus they say they are Chinese, NOT indonesian.
Here in the bay area, they are fine telling everyone that they are indonesian. Im not far from DVC a very popular junior college that has quite a few indonesians.[/quote]
Yeah, that could be true - and it’s probably not only the Taiwanese that are guilty of that. In this case, however, I’m sure it was to distinguish themselves from the native Indonesians. At that time, there was discrimination going on by Indonesians against the local Chinese that was at times violent, which is likely one of the reasons why.
[quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“tommy525”]Ref Taipeidawg:
Yea, perhaps the indonesian Chinese sense the tendency of Taiwanese to look down on south east Asian people, thus they say they are Chinese, NOT indonesian.
Here in the bay area, they are fine telling everyone that they are indonesian. Im not far from DVC a very popular junior college that has quite a few indonesians.[/quote]
Yeah, that could be true - and it’s probably not only the Taiwanese that are guilty of that. In this case, however, I’m sure it was to distinguish themselves from the native Indonesians. At that time, there was discrimination going on by Indonesians against the local Chinese that was at times violent, which is likely one of the reasons why.[/quote]
Yes probably so. However native indonesians are unlikely to be in Taiwan studying chinese, that should be obvious to anyone thats aware.
For many years , till recently , Indonesian Chinese in Indonesia couldnt study Chinese in schools or even have Chinese written on a name card or on their stores. Everything had to be in Indonesian. It worked tho as the younger set basically speak indonesian all day long.
I was in one of the top hotels in JKT a few years back it was part of a mall and very popular with the well to do in JKT and most everyone there were Indonesian Chinese. A lot of younger people (20s/30s) hanging around there. And I didnt hear a word of Chinese. NOt a word.
[quote=“tommy525”]Yes probably so. However native indonesians are unlikely to be in Taiwan studying Chinese, that should be obvious to anyone thats aware.
For many years , till recently , Indonesian Chinese in Indonesia couldnt study Chinese in schools or even have Chinese written on a name card or on their stores. Everything had to be in Indonesian. It worked tho as the younger set basically speak indonesian all day long.
I was in one of the top hotels in JKT a few years back it was part of a mall and very popular with the well to do in JKT and most everyone there were Indonesian Chinese. A lot of younger people (20s/30s) hanging around there. And I didnt hear a word of Chinese. NOt a word.[/quote]
If I’m not mistaken, these students had come to Taiwan primarily because of the social tension in Indonesia at that time. They were ethnically Chinese and could speak a Chinese dialect (I don’t know which one or if they all spoke the same dialect or not…) that they learned at home but they could not speak Mandarin. Maybe that’s one reason why you didn’t hear people speaking Mandarin when you were in JKT? I have no idea what the social environment is like there these days.
Taiwan bills itself as a good place to learn Chinese as the traditional characters are still used here. Btw, I also see one Taiwan guy who advertises in US martial arts magazines saying that Taiwan is the best place to study Chinese martial arts as all the masters came to Taiwan with CKS. Fact, fiction, or just business? Have to leave that one for another thread/forum…
Taipeidawg: [color=green]when someone referred to them as Indonesians they got irate and insisted they were Chinese - not Indonesian. That struck me as being very one-sided. I am familiar with assimilation issues of overseas Chinese throughout SE Asia and there’s not necessarily any right or wrong[/color]
Actually it is very wrong You do that to a Malaysian Chinese, you will get the same reaction too. The reason is because Chinese in Southeast Asia, especially Indonesia and Malaysia, are discriminated and persecuted. Since they are not generally accepted as part of the mainstream society, they are compelled to consider their identity differently. So they are ‘forced’ to distinguish themselves from the locals.
So the issue about race and nationality is not confusing. We know our nationality but we also want to stress our identity that we’re not Malay or Javanese like the Bali bombers Amrozi and the gangs. Some SEA Chinese may look more like Southeast Asian due to intermarriage but they still consider themselves Chinese and wants to identify themselves with the Chinese people.
It is pointless for Taiwanese to identify themselves as relatively new immigrants or not because the difference is too less, almost none. The idea of “ben shen ren” (local/inner province) and “wai shen ren” (foreign/outer province) will not work in the society if a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant does not reveal his immigrant background. He will be treated as local. It might work to a certain degree in politics but not effective. We can’t distinguish Taiwanese and mainland Chinese. Those who comes from Fujian can speak Taiwanese dialect in no time. Even Malaysian Chinese can do that effortlessly what more than say about Fujianese immigrants to Taiwan.
But identifying oneself by race is highly relevant in Southeast Asia because we’re very different - culturally, the look, language, values, belief and faith, but most importantly, we’re constantly reminded we’re not part of them.
[quote=“tommy525”][quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“tommy525”]Ref Taipeidawg:
Yea, perhaps the indonesian Chinese sense the tendency of Taiwanese to look down on south east Asian people, thus they say they are Chinese, NOT indonesian.
Here in the bay area, they are fine telling everyone that they are indonesian. Im not far from DVC a very popular junior college that has quite a few indonesians.[/quote]
Yeah, that could be true - and it’s probably not only the Taiwanese that are guilty of that. In this case, however, I’m sure it was to distinguish themselves from the native Indonesians. At that time, there was discrimination going on by Indonesians against the local Chinese that was at times violent, which is likely one of the reasons why.[/quote]
Yes probably so. However native indonesians are unlikely to be in Taiwan studying Chinese, that should be obvious to anyone thats aware.
For many years , till recently , Indonesian Chinese in Indonesia couldnt study Chinese in schools or even have Chinese written on a name card or on their stores. Everything had to be in Indonesian. It worked tho as the younger set basically speak indonesian all day long.
I was in one of the top hotels in JKT a few years back it was part of a mall and very popular with the well to do in JKT and most everyone there were Indonesian Chinese. A lot of younger people (20s/30s) hanging around there. And I didnt hear a word of Chinese. NOt a word.[/quote]
What do you mean by Chinese? I know large number of Indonesian Chinese speak Hakka, not Mandarin. Of course it’s natural for younger generations to integrate into the host country after time.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I use mainland and mainlanders all the time, as do mainlanders and Taiwanese (solly!). I guess it’s just coming straight from Chinese - dalu - dalu ren.
HG[/quote]
Yes, it’s mainly just a colloqialism. Lots of Taiwanese call people in China ‘大陸人’ (even among themselves), that doesn’t mean they themselves think they are part of China. It’s just an expression and also a statement of fact and it does save getting into political discussions.
Also I agree with Taiko’s statements, nationhood (except for minor exceptions) rather than empire or race based states date to the end of the last century only. Prior to WWI and WWII huge numbers of German and Jewish ‘race’ peoples lived all over E.Europe for 100s of years. They held both local and their racial indentity. Discriminatory laws from local countries (for instance not allowed to live in certain cities, do certain professions, marry local people, use their language in school) further reinforced their seperate identity. This type of society was eliminated forcefully following atrocities of WWII, especially by the Third Reich and USSR.
That’s because no one in Taiwan is expecting to you say Taiwanese/Chinese. But if you had an Asian features people might have different expectation of you depending on your Mandarin accent.
In urban areas in the US, there are ethnic whites. They do it for politcal or social reasons.
As for Taiwan, I don’t see it as much of an issue. Every Chinese whether they are part of the PRC or ROC refer to the Mainland as the Mainland. Unless you’re just super sensitive to the possible political connotation, since it is accepted as the political neutral term in Chinese. There are politically neutral terms for HK, Macua, and Taiwan in Chinese for describing their geographic relation to the PRC as well.
[quote=“Taiko”] So the issue about race and nationality is not confusing. We know our nationality but we also want to stress our identity that we’re not Malay or Javanese like the Bali bombers Amrozi and the gangs. Some SEA Chinese may look more like Southeast Asian due to intermarriage but they still consider themselves Chinese and wants to identify themselves with the Chinese people.
It is pointless for Taiwanese to identify themselves as relatively new immigrants or not because the difference is too less, almost none. The idea of “ben shen ren” (local/inner province) and “wai shen ren” (foreign/outer province) will not work in the society if a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant does not reveal his immigrant background. He will be treated as local. It might work to a certain degree in politics but not effective. We can’t distinguish Taiwanese and mainland Chinese. Those who comes from Fujian can speak Taiwanese dialect in no time. Even Malaysian Chinese can do that effortlessly what more than say about Fujianese immigrants to Taiwan.[/quote] Well, that’s good that it’s not confusing for you. And why would it be? You are free to identify yourself as Chinese within the larger framework of being Indonesian. Nobody is going to confuse you with being Mainland Chinese - or if they do it doesn’t matter coz your country is not called ‘Chinese Republic of SE Asia (Indonesia)’ or something like that. Anyway, people won’t confuse Indonesia as being part of China just because it has a large Han Chinese population. As I mentioned before, Taiwanese that identify themselves as such do so on the basis of where they identify as their homeland. I don’t know why other Chinese see that as being such an infraction of the ‘rules’ that for some reason seem to apply to all ethnic Chinese. As if Taiwanese are trying to distinguish themselves as better than other Chinese and need to be brought back down to earth…
[quote=“Taiko”] But identifying oneself by race is highly relevant in Southeast Asia because we’re very different - culturally, the look, language, values, belief and faith, but most importantly, we’re constantly reminded we’re not part of them.[/quote] I have no problem with people identifying themselves by race, but I don’t agree with forcing people to identify themselves by race. And I’m totally against taking away anyone’s option to identify themselves by their country if they choose to.