[quote=“Feiren”]The protests at the university speech were fine. While I do believe that Zhang tripped and fell rather than having been pushed, he was retreating from a small but angry crowd that scared Zhang and passed beyond the pale of acceptable behavior–even to the minion of a despicable authoritarian regime.
I tend to think Sandie may be correct. This was a setup that will provide an excuse for draconian security when Chen Yunlin comes next week so that he and the Ma administration will not be embarrassed by seeing any protests at all.
Of course Wang Ding-yu (the Tainan City Councilman) played along willingly to get his moment in the spotlight. Idiot.
The other possibility is that Zhang and other Chinese officials are still so uninformed about the real sentiment of Taiwanese that they did not realize the likely outcome of a casual visit to the Confucian Temple without properly alerting their security detail.
As for the KMT’s pious denunciation of violence, one should remember how the KMT condemned Su An-sheng for attacking the former ambassador to Japan Hsu Shih-kai and then kicking Chen Shui-bian. They seated him in the VIP section of the National Day Ceremony this past October 10th.[/quote]
True, it was a pretty angry mob, but that would be the case anywhere in the world, except elsewhere security would keep the people away. As I said, I was watching with the sound off which may have affected how I perceive the level of threat. And for the record, I don’t condone jumping on a car and acting in groups to threaten one person. It is the hypocrisy that is galling, even on Fcom, with many who were perfectly fine to see Tibetans burn Chinese alive in riots last year, and equally fine with attacks on Olympic torch bearers, now taking the high ground over an angry scuffle.
This board confounds me. On most China/Taiwan-related threads are rants about how terrible it would be if China takes over Taiwan and how terrible it is that Ma is opening the door to China.
Now that the Taiwanese PEOPLE are standing up for themselves against the bully, why are you all against the people? The government is working hard to become part of the PRC. The actions of regular people give me peace of mind knowing that Taiwanese won’t passively let another country take away what they have built.
Many of us come from countries that fought off a looming mother government. People in our home countries had to stand strong for their country in order to get their independence. What’s wrong with the people here standing up for their own country, especially when their government isn’t?
A person who fights for his/her beliefs should not be considered just a “backwood hick.” While people in Taipei live off the fruits of the land (shopping at Carrefour and buying imports left and right), those “backwood hicks” are working the fields and don’t have the means to jump ship if China takes over. The wealthy are birthing in the US so their kids can have US citizenship and rely on investments in China…how much can they care about their country? Your “backwood hicks” have the most to lose. They have the most to fight for.
Sure, you all are going to criticize me and find all the holes in my argument. Go ahead – a number of you know a lot more facts than I will ever attest to. Just don’t criticize me. I’m a woman who wouldn’t be voting, traveling alone, living without a husband, making my own money, and so many other perks from my life if it hadn’t been for other people with fire in their spit.
well, while i don’t agree with anyone being violent normally, i can’t help but feel that this typical one-eyed brainwashed representative of the CCP deserved every bit of it, waving his belittling policies in people’s faces. people talk about respecting one’s guests, but where’s the respect shown to Taiwan from the PRC?
can’t WAIT to see what happens when this next bloke comes across from China. hopefully there’ll be a bit of a protest raised. maybe some eggs, paint bombs, stink bombs, fireworks,… you know, the usual non-violent stuff that gets one onto the TV. but no pushing, for that would be disrespectful.
Because the slide into random discrimination, violence and racism is just the next step.
There are MANY, many recent mainland Chinese immigrants living in Taiwan (and just ignore the fact that nearly all of todays Taiwanese arrived in the past 2 centuries).
If the political parties led their followers run loose then the next thing is that the food stalls owned by hardworking Chinese women (married to Taiwanese deadbeats) will be destroyed. Children in school will be targeted because they are not “Taiwanese” enough ; in return for this Taiwanese businesses in China will be targeted an destroyed, people beaten up, killed you get the drift.
When we had the big red protests in Taipei many American commentators couldn’t belief that the city wasn’t burning similar to the LA riots. In fact people would bring their children along. That is the Taiwan you want to live in, not the Isreal or South Africa that it could become, tearing apart along its internal divisions.
In fact, Taiwanese are pretty much peaceful, compared with so many other people around the world. But you cannot step into someone’s foot and expect him to apologize and smile at you.
And you clearly forget that random discrimination, violence and racism was the plat-du-jour that was served by the mainland Chinese to the Taiwanese people for the last 60 years…
In fact, I’m ashamed that Taiwan doesn’t have a guy like Baltazar Garzon, who, at least, had the guts to put the old spanish dictator in court, even if he is going to be hunting ghosts.
The Irish are a peaceful and gentle people – and I spend quite a few happy years among them. Just don’t read the Belfast Telegraph on a Sunday morning for the latest on the Protestant v Catholic kneecappings, shootings, bombings, knifings, intimidation, blackmail etc. They still blame events dating back 400 years. People are the same around the world.
I don’t think anyone would want to back to the past? Violence by either party ; either White terror or Green terror shouldn’t be tolerated ; and should remain a relic of the past.
If the government wants to invite a CCP buly then at least properly protect him ; if it makes him feel uncomfortable having to drive around in an APC so be it. But order needs to be maintained (that is the whole point of the nation state, violence is the exclusive domain of the state).
I do think you underestimate the potential for this going out of control.
The current government (KMT) has pretty much nailed Chen and his immediate family for their spectacular whitewashing. If not in truth, then certainly in impression. His core supporters don’t buy this ; and they have no place to direct their anger.
So Chen isn’t going down without a fight ; and he is rounding up support to avoid jail at any cost. He has a very strong support base in the south, and they are angry that their main hero is going to be Estrada II.
If Mr. Ma and the KMT want to be consistent, I guess they’ll have to invite the attacker to their next parade as a special guest (just like they did with that pro-unification guy who ‘attacked’ Chen).
Now, Zhang Mingqing is pressing charges against his assailants. Can’t wait to see that trial:
Zhang Mingqing: Yes, it’s true I threatened the life of the defendant with over 1,000 missiles, but that doesn’t give him the right to shove me!!!
[quote=“ichbinjenny”]This board confounds me. On most China/Taiwan-related threads are rants about how terrible it would be if China takes over Taiwan and how terrible it is that Ma is opening the door to China.
Now that the Taiwanese PEOPLE are standing up for themselves against the bully, why are you all against the people? The government is working hard to become part of the PRC. The actions of regular people give me peace of mind knowing that Taiwanese won’t passively let another country take away what they have built.
Many of us come from countries that fought off a looming mother government. People in our home countries had to stand strong for their country in order to get their independence. What’s wrong with the people here standing up for their own country, especially when their government isn’t?
A person who fights for his/her beliefs should not be considered just a “backwood hick.” While people in Taipei live off the fruits of the land (shopping at Carrefour and buying imports left and right), those “backwood hicks” are working the fields and don’t have the means to jump ship if China takes over. The wealthy are birthing in the US so their kids can have US citizenship and rely on investments in China…how much can they care about their country? Your “backwood hicks” have the most to lose. They have the most to fight for.
Sure, you all are going to criticize me and find all the holes in my argument. Go ahead – a number of you know a lot more facts than I will ever attest to. Just don’t criticize me. I’m a woman who wouldn’t be voting, traveling alone, living without a husband, making my own money, and so many other perks from my life if it hadn’t been for other people with fire in their spit.[/quote]
I don’t think you should be equating standing up for themselves with attacking people they don’t like, as one of the above posters said, violence as a tactic can backfire and get out of hand once people see it as a viable method to get what they want. What do you think the effect of these actions is going to be; is the guy going to go back and say to his people “We should be nice to Taiwan; just declare it independent right now because they attacked me and my car”? More likely, he’s just going to say, “Hey, guess what? Those Taiwanese are more like us than I imagined!”
Then again, what do I know? I’m just one of those Taipei (County) people who buys imports left AND right.
Against the people? Surely you jest! I’m just having a laugh at the clownfight. All they’re lacking is the funny little car and the baggy trousers.
A bunch of fucking circus clowns is all.
I think you far far far over-estimate it. The southern hicks accepted Ma’s defeat of Hsieh quite well (compared with the violence - Ma permitted of course - after Lien Chan lost in 2004) and have had peaceful protests against his policies. Saturday’s protest will be peaceful as well. A few loons on either side do not define the people here. This isn’t SA because there isn’t a mass of unemployed and disenfranchised youth to draw from. Old ladies with yellowed canes just aren’t a serious threat to the social order.
If you believe this is true then there’s the problem. The current gov should not be involved in nailing Chen. This is a job for neutral public officials working for the district attorney. The fact that the new admin is interfering and further that the people attemting to build a case against Chen are obviously biased, is a legitimate cause for anger.
I doubt it. Chen now has a small vocal support group just as Soong, an equally corrupt Taiwanese pol, has. But both men lost their reputations and the backing of ordinary people. This won’t go very far. The 18-25 year old boys are either in the army or cram schools.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
If you believe this is true then there’s the problem. The current gov should not be involved in nailing Chen. This is a job for neutral public officials working for the district attorney. The fact that the new admin is interfering and further that the people attemting to build a case against Chen are obviously biased, is a legitimate cause for anger. [/quote]
I don’t believe this – The opposite actually, as I am pretty impressed that during both the Chen & current administration the judicial people were still looking to maintain law & order and tried hard to maintain their own place in the system according to the rules laid down. (despite the obvious pressures applied). There is hope left.
A little dose of some actual real clowns would be nice to deflate the whole thing.
Oh nonsense. The protests at the uni speech were perfectly acceptable by any standard and happen all over the world. If they were against Bush you would be happily in agreement. [/quote]
Of course there was nothing objectionable about the university protests, which is why I didn’t mention them. But the harassing and assaulting of a foreign guest (surely those TIers do regard him as a foreign guest, dont they?) goes way beyond the bounds of acceptable behaviour and can only reflect discreditably on Taiwan and its people. What they did would certainly constitute a raft of criminal offenses in the UK, and you can bet there’d have been some burly policemen on hand to arrest them if they’d done anything like that in dear old Blighty.
And much as I loathe George Bush and everything he stands for, I would strongly condemn anyone who launched a physical assault on him, just as I strongly condemned that piece of shit who put the boot in on Chen Shui-bian.
Is that true? I’m surprised I didn’t read about it in the Taipei Times or Liberty Times - or maybe I missed it because I’ve been too busy to more than glance over the papers lately. If it is true, it is absolutely disgraceful, and no two ways about it!
Care to explain how you have come to this conclusion?[/quote]
Outsider observation only.
The previous endless lawsuits regarding the disputed election loss (leading to Chen II) which went on and on. Most everyone in politics seems happy to sue each other, but there is the rarity of a really seriously disputed verdict. If the system was patently unfair , or weighted to one or the other interest this would be a common complaint, but it rarely is. Arguments are about details.
Those wanting to prosecute Chen and his family will need to put together a solid case, otherwise he and his family will be able to get off on a procedural issue.
I dislike hypocrisy, too, and am glad it’s something I cannot possibly be accused of here, since I unequivocally condemned the mobs of murdering Tibetans and those morons attacking the torch-bearers in even stronger terms than I condemned the less violent but nonetheless still disgraceful behaviour of that loutish rabble in Tainan.
Violence, of no matter what degree, can never be condoned except when being used necessarily in self-defense.
While it’s questionable how he got his invitation, and it was very likely channeled to him by some hardline element in the KMT, it is evident that the Presidential Office and Executive Yuan had nothing to do with it, and were as appalled as anyone by his presence.
Hmm…It’s hard to believe that the Presidential Office and the national security people do not keep a close eye on who gets invited. If they did not, it was negligence on their part. But yes, I have no doubt that some hardline KMT faction wangled the invitation for this ‘hero’ of the Republic.
[quote=“M. Jagger & K. Richards in Jigsaw Puzzle”]
Oh, there’s twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, “It’s not fair!”
There’s a regiment of soldiers
Standing looking on
And the queen is bravely shouting,
“What the hell is going on?”
With a blood-curdling “tally-ho”
She charged into the ranks
And blessed all those grandmas who
With their dying breaths screamed, “Thanks!”[/quote]
