I’m still in the middle of reading the thread “Why not to study in Taiwan…” and am getting frustrated by the usage of “Chinese.”
Chinese is a language family, consisting of Mandarin, Cantonese and many others that share the common writing system. However, we are not learning all of the languages – we are, for the most part – learning Mandarin.
While I do realize Mandarin specifically describes the spoken part of the language, many countries list “Mandarin” as an official language. This is done to not confuse which dialect of Sino-Tibetan language is used. Also, written Mandarin is, in some cases, written differently than written Cantonese and other languages. Note that Taiwanese (the language) has its own written form, but takes on Mandarin for standardization and understanding of general audiences.
Chinese, in modern usage, is used to describe a native or inhabitant of China, or a person whose ancestry is of China.
Would it be possible to use “Mandarin” when referring to “GuoYu” (the country language, the common language) and “Chinese” to refer to people from China (as opposed to Taiwanese, who are people from Taiwan)?
Please?
ironlady, et al: if this has been discussed before, please let me know. my search came up with many unrelated threads
Um, it’s also universally used to describe the language, whether that bugs you or not. Linguists study Chinese, anthropologists study the Chinese. Sure, the correct term is Mandarin, but for the vast majority of people, you’d need to use “Chinese” to describe the language you study, unless you can be bothered taking the trouble to give a potted explanation every time someone gives you a blank stare when you mention Mandarin – which for most people in the non-Chinese speaking world, is a variety of citrus fruit.
If you want to get technical, Mandarin or guoyu is something you speak. You can’t read or write guoyu. You read and write Chinese, zhongwen. But if you want to get political, Mandarin, besides guoyu, can be either putonghua or beijinghua, depending on your political stance.
You do know that words can take on different meanings based on context, right? This hold true for the word ‘Chinese’ as well, even in modern usage. In fact, it can even change lexical categories depending on usage. You may be surprised to know that the word ‘Chinese’ can also be an adjective.
Let’s take a look at the dictionary definition. I think the red parts speak for themselves.
[quote]Chi·nese /tʃaɪˈniz, -ˈnis/ noun, plural-nese, adjective –noun
[color=red]1. the standard language of China, based on the speech of Beijing; Mandarin.
2. a group of languages of the Sino-Tibetan family, including standard Chinese and most of the other languages of China. Abbreviation: Chin., Chin
3. any of the Chinese languages, which vary among themselves to the point of mutual unintelligibility.[/color]
4. a native or descendant of a native of China. –adjective
5. of or pertaining to China, its inhabitants, or one of their languages.
6. noting or pertaining to the partly logographic, partly phonetic script used for the writing of Chinese, Japanese, and other languages, consisting of thousands of brushstroke characters written in vertical columns from right to left.[/quote]
[quote=“ichbinjenny”]Would it be possible to use “Mandarin” when referring to “GuoYu” (the country language, the common language) and “Chinese” to refer to people from China (as opposed to Taiwanese, who are people from Taiwan)?
Please?[/quote]
No, because this is just prescriptive pedantic nonsense. Have you ever seen the term “President of Taiwan”? Does it bother you? You do know that Taiwan doesn’t really have a president right? The Republic of China does, however. Taiwan is a pretty good approximation of the Republic of China, but ROC’s current territory is just ever so slightly larger than Taiwan itself. So as long as we’re trying to be technically correct, can I count on you to use Republic of China in the future when you are referring to relevant government institutions.
And while we’re at it, I think it’s better if you use the term “Standard Mandarin” when referring to Guoyu or Putonghua. Afterall, we wouldn’t want to confuse Standard Mandarin with Beijing Mandarin, Northeastern Mandarin, Ji Lu Mandarin, Jiao Liao Mandarin, Zhongyuan Mandarin, Lan Yin Mandarin, Southwestern Mandarin, and Jianghuai Mandarin.
So back to the original thread that has you peeved, what you really want to know is whether it is better to learn Standard Mandarin in areas currently controlled by the Republic of China or in areas currently controlled by the People’s Republic of China. Right?
No, it isn’t. In Britain, for example, “Chinese” is often used to mean “Cantonese.”
What on earth are you talking about? That’s absolutely, completely wrong. Mandarin is a language. People speak it. People write it. And many who do not speak it nonetheless do write it, because they are taught to do so rather than how to write their own native language.
And I don’t understand what sjcma is so unhappy about. It’s rather too harsh to label the distinction ichbinjenny proposes “just prescriptive pedantic nonsense.”
I’m on my way out the door and don’t have time to write any more now.
When I was in Hong Kong and Macau, I noticed that the locals called Cantonese “Chung Man” (=zhongwen), and would call it “Chinese” in English.
The meaning of “Chinese” all depends on the context, of course. When the context is clear, “Chinese” can refer to spoken Mandarin Chinese; it can also refer to other dialects. The written language can be referred to as Chinese, whether it’s modern or classical. Context is king.
BTW, I prefer the use of “Mandarin Chinese” over plain “Mandarin”, because a lot of people don’t know what “Mandarin” means.
I’ve been feeling gloomy all day and I guess it showed. So, my apologies ichbinjenny if my words are a little harsh.
Nevertheless, and despite cranky’s New Year’s resolution, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using the word ‘Chinese’ when the intended meaning is perfectly clear given the context. If someone from Hong Kong asks me if I speak “Chinese”, the context of the situation will lead me to believe that he’s probably asking whether I speak Cantonese. If we’re talking about learning Chinese in Taiwan or China, I think it’s pretty clear that it is Standard Mandarin that we’re talking about here. Just because linguists narrowly define a term for preciseness in academia doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to follow suit.
As an aside, yes, I have been asked by HKers in English whether I understand Chinese or Mandarin. They then go on to ask me in Cantonese whether I understand chung-man(中文) or kwok-yu(國語). From a HKer’s point of view, this type of language makes perfect sense because when they went to school, their Chinese classes, labelled 中文課程 for obvious reasons, were conducted solely in Cantonese.
I’m with Incubus and Jenny on this one. I think Chinese should refer primarily to the written language as expressed in Hanzi. As we all know, Zhongwen is really a blend of literary Chinese and modern spoken languages. The ‘wen’, moreover, points clearly to the written, textual nature of the term.
But I don’t think we should be prescriptive about it. It just a sign of someone who is thinking more carefully about these matters. I’m not sure I follow Cranky when he says people write Mandarin. Of course they can and sometimes do write Mandarin in pinyin or reproduce it in dialog in a novel written in Chinese. But writing in Mandarin and in Chinese are two very different things.
No, it isn’t. In Britain, for example, “Chinese” is often used to mean “Cantonese.”
What on earth are you talking about? That’s absolutely, completely wrong. Mandarin is a language. People speak it. People write it. And many who do not speak it nonetheless do write it, because they are taught to do so rather than how to write their own native language.
And I don’t understand what sjcma is so unhappy about. It’s rather too harsh to label the distinction ichbinjenny proposes “just prescriptive pedantic nonsense.”
I’m on my way out the door and don’t have time to write any more now.
But ichbinjenny’s OP never asked to have the written language referred to as ‘Chinese’. Rather, judging strictly by the contents of her post, she requests that the word ‘Chinese’ be restricted to a noun that describes “a native or inhabitant of China, or a person whose ancestry is of China”.
I think referring to the written language as Chinese and the spoken language as something else (Mandarin, Taiwanese, etc.) can be unnecessarily cumbersome. A simple sentence such as “I am in Taiwan to learn Chinese.” becomes “I am in Taiwan to learn Mandarin and Chinese”. Seriously, who’s confused about the first sentence?
Sure, ‘Mandarin’ is more precise, but in context, ‘Chinese’ is also usually understandable. I’m a LOT more concerned about where to find this damned character in the dictionary: :fume:
EDIT: So as not to derail this thread, I’ll be copying the replies to the latter character bit to another thread and we can continue there.
Ah, I return from a day out and the thread is already at 2 pages. I’m glad this sparked so much conversation.
(1)
First, no, “Chinese” is not “universally” used for a “universal” meaning. Like I said in my OP, countries specifically list “Mandarin” as an official language, not Chinese, since “Chinese” refers to a whole slew of dissimilar dialects. Linguists who study the entire group of Chinese language study Chinese. Some study only Mandarin, others the disappearing dialects.
(2)
In my OP, I wrote that not all written “Chinese” is the same. Formal Cantonese and Mandarin are similar; however, in their casual forms, the two dialects have slight differences. Also, Taiwanese – which many say falls under the Sino-Tibetan family of languages – has a completely different writing system, but takes on the standard HanZi characters so a larger audience can understand.
I shall quote cranky laowai on this one, since I believe he is referencing the fact that many Taiwanese who speak the language Taiwanese cannot read or write the written Taiwanese language, with his…
This is also why I didn’t really delve into what I suggest to call the written language. Perhaps just stick with “HanZi.” Before my quote is followed by snarky comments, the people who are interested in learning Mandarin have been able to grasp the word “pinyin” and are therefore able to use foreign sounding words to mean things. This goes the same as other borrowed words in the English language, like kimono, sake, karaoke, bok choy, et al,…the list goes on. If “Hanzi” is used more often, it will take hold.
(3)
Yes, I do realize that words can have more than one meaning. And no, I wasn’t surprised about the adjectives. In the phrase “the Chinese language,” “Chinese” is an adjective modifying to specify which language. Many nouns can modify nouns and in tern can be classified as adjectives.
(4)
No, this doesn’t bother me because I do know the difference between the landmass “Taiwan” and the government “ROC.” I am bothered, however with how Wikipedia deals with Taiwan vs the ROC, but that is a bit off-topic.
Sure, why not? I am learning Mandarin in Taiwan, which means I can interject little Taiwanese phrases like “swuee” (pretty/beautiful) and “pie-say” (shy) into my [insert correct label for Taiwanese Mandarin here]. Just tonight I learned that you can use “挖” to mean “me”, since in Taiwanese “挖” sounds like “wo” (me) (example: “挖是外國人！” = “I am a foreigner!” This comes from a blog comment written by a Taiwanese female, about 20 years old.)
No. I am in Taiwan learning Mandarin because I prefer the Taiwanese accent and language tendencies, I am in a committed relationship with a Taiwanese, and I love this country.
The only thing that my OP has to do with that thread is that the thread sparked my plea for a Forumosa Style Sheet amendment. I started to get confused whether the posts were referencing people or language, and I had to keep re-reading sentences. Chris wrote that “Context is king,” however, in that thread, the context became blurry since the ideas of the language and the speakers were very closely used.
(4)
Valid questions and concerns, but really, I wanted to discuss the difference between “Mandarin” and “Chinese” here. I think clearer wording would be helpful.
And yeah, I’m also interested in how Mandarin (not Cantonese nor other dialects) is taught to foreigners in Taiwan…I’m planning to do research and a dissertation on the topic. Something about how ESL/EFL teaching techniques are and are not being implemented in CSL/CFL.
(5)
Seriously, no “hot air” nor “piss” intended. I felt it was a valid question. This forum has a lot of nonsense threads – why say this thread is one? Please don’t respond to this point…it’s really not beneficial. [/quote]
(6)
Dragonbones…my sources say that this might not even be a Hanzi word. (Unless you meant that to be a joke…ha ha ha.)
Well, then the dictionary disagrees with you. One of the many definitions of the word ‘Chinese’ is to refer to a whole slew of dissimilar dialects and languages. One other very valid definition of the word is to refer to Standard Mandarin. Yet another very valid definition is to refer to Standard Written Chinese using Hanzi.
In fact, have a look at the United Nations English website and see what they list as their official languages. Gasp! They use the word ‘Chinese’! The UN provides simultaneous interpreting from and into English, French, Arabic, Russian, Spanish and Chinese. Does it mean people at the UN are allowed to speak Cantonese, Hainanese, Shanghaiese, Hakka, Minbeihua, Minnanhua, Siyihua…etc. and have all of these languages be simultaneously interpreted? Or did you figure out that when the UN says ‘Chinese’, they really mean one and only one thing – Standard Mandarin. Not confusing at all, now, is it?
I would say that this is an inaccurate characterization of the relationship among these languages. What do you consider “formal Cantonese” anyway?
Sure, why not? I am learning Mandarin in Taiwan, which means I can interject little Taiwanese phrases like “swuee” (pretty/beautiful) and “pie-say” (shy) into my [insert correct label for Taiwanese Mandarin here]. Just tonight I learned that you can use “挖” to mean “me”, since in Taiwanese “挖” sounds like “wo” (me) (example: “挖是外國人！” = “I am a foreigner!” This comes from a blog comment written by a Taiwanese female, about 20 years old.)[/quote]
Sorry, I’m confused with your usage of the word “Taiwanese” here. Do you mean Taiwan Minnan (Quanzhou), Taiwan Minnan (Zhangzhou), Taiwan-accented Mandarin, macaronic Minnan/Mandarin, Taiwan Hakka, Paiwan, Amis, Rukai, Puyuma, etc.? I think you need to clarify.
It seems that all of the participants of that thread were able to follow the conversation without the need to ask for further clarification. I have also followed that thread from the beginning. Never once did I find myself confused when the word ‘Chinese’ showed up whether it was referring to Mandarin or the people of China.
I wonder if you’d get equally confused if a discussion were to take place about whether it would be better to learn English in England or Florida.
It’s listed as a character in the Online Chinese Character Dictionary, but provides neither a meaning nor a pronunciation. Based on another character (走烏) wu3, which means “to walk lightly” (說文: 走輕也), like crows/birds do, I’d say that (走馬) probably means to gallop, like horses do. It’s not in the HYDZD?
I’m a contexter. I think it’s fine to refer to the language, written or spoken, as Chinese in general, and more precisely as Mandarin or Mandarin Chinese (or Taiwanese Mandarin or whatever) as the context necessitates.
sandman = repartee
:fume: