How can you compare ‘the man’ on the streets’ level of English in Sweden with that in Taiwan??? Their language is far more similar to English, they have an English environment.
As for Taiwanese involvement in political discussion, you’re right, some people probably couldn’t have a political discussion in their language, but I think there is a far higher turn out at elections than in my country (the UK), which shows there isn’t political apathy.
[quote=“steelersman”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Define “understood”. Aside from the obvious differences in knowledge levels and interests, I’d hardly say many Taiwanese are really up to the task of having a complex political or philosophical discussion in English. Northern Europeans, in particular, quite often have this ability, and I don’t have to dumb down my language or endlessly repeat myself to be able to have such conversations with them. I certainly do with most Taiwanese. I was in Sweden catching a local bus and the driver was rambling away about all manner of things in English quite fluently. I could never imagine encountering such Taiwanese bus drivers. Yeah, you’ll find guys who are dentists or high flyers who speak amazing English here, but they’re hardly indicative of the man on the street. High level English in Taiwan would be fairly intermediate in many European nations, if that. Have a look at the international tests, such as the results at the IELTS website, if you don’t believe me.
Rather than blowing Taiwan’s horn, I think people should really be hanging their heads in shame and questioning why Taiwanese are so bloody useless at English given the enormous amount of time and money they spend on it (including every shop sign, advertisement and t-shirt seemingly having (bafflingly odd) English on it, which is something I simply haven’t encountered anywhere else in the world), and given the higher proficiency levels in other nations that devote fewer resources to it.[/quote]
Many Taiwanese could not have a political discussion in Mandarin either.[/quote]
They can’t talk about american politics in English, but they sure talk taiwanese politics, mostly with their fists.
Taiwanese are known for poor english. That’s why many desk job outsourcing firms go to India, or southeast asia. Taiwan picks up manufacturing jobs, where no english proficiency is required.
[quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“steelersman”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Define “understood”. Aside from the obvious differences in knowledge levels and interests, I’d hardly say many Taiwanese are really up to the task of having a complex political or philosophical discussion in English. Northern Europeans, in particular, quite often have this ability, and I don’t have to dumb down my language or endlessly repeat myself to be able to have such conversations with them. I certainly do with most Taiwanese. I was in Sweden catching a local bus and the driver was rambling away about all manner of things in English quite fluently. I could never imagine encountering such Taiwanese bus drivers. Yeah, you’ll find guys who are dentists or high flyers who speak amazing English here, but they’re hardly indicative of the man on the street. High level English in Taiwan would be fairly intermediate in many European nations, if that. Have a look at the international tests, such as the results at the IELTS website, if you don’t believe me.
Rather than blowing Taiwan’s horn, I think people should really be hanging their heads in shame and questioning why Taiwanese are so bloody useless at English given the enormous amount of time and money they spend on it (including every shop sign, advertisement and t-shirt seemingly having (bafflingly odd) English on it, which is something I simply haven’t encountered anywhere else in the world), and given the higher proficiency levels in other nations that devote fewer resources to it.[/quote]
Many Taiwanese could not have a political discussion in Mandarin either.[/quote]
They can’t talk about American politics in English, but they sure talk taiwanese politics, mostly with their fists.
Taiwanese are known for poor english. That’s why many desk job outsourcing firms go to India, or southeast asia. Taiwan picks up manufacturing jobs, where no english proficiency is required.[/quote]
Mate, you keep coming up with these strange statements with no supporting evidence. “Taiwanese are known for poor english”…known by whom? compared to who? Its like saying “the French are known for poor Chinese”. Of course outsourcers look to India…Indians have a higher level of English for obvious historical and practical reasons. Taiwan is an East Asian country that was colonized by Japan so European languages are never going to be a strong suit. But its hardly a source of shame now is it?
[quote=“TaipeiD”]They can’t talk about American politics in English, but they sure talk taiwanese politics, mostly with their fists.
Taiwanese are known for poor english. That’s why many desk job outsourcing firms go to India, or southeast asia. Taiwan picks up manufacturing jobs, where no english proficiency is required.[/quote]
Well Americans are known for their complete lack of Chinese skills at all, can’t manufacture anything except a financial crisis putting millions into unemployment.
[quote=“the bear”][quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“steelersman”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Define “understood”. Aside from the obvious differences in knowledge levels and interests, I’d hardly say many Taiwanese are really up to the task of having a complex political or philosophical discussion in English. Northern Europeans, in particular, quite often have this ability, and I don’t have to dumb down my language or endlessly repeat myself to be able to have such conversations with them. I certainly do with most Taiwanese. I was in Sweden catching a local bus and the driver was rambling away about all manner of things in English quite fluently. I could never imagine encountering such Taiwanese bus drivers. Yeah, you’ll find guys who are dentists or high flyers who speak amazing English here, but they’re hardly indicative of the man on the street. High level English in Taiwan would be fairly intermediate in many European nations, if that. Have a look at the international tests, such as the results at the IELTS website, if you don’t believe me.
Rather than blowing Taiwan’s horn, I think people should really be hanging their heads in shame and questioning why Taiwanese are so bloody useless at English given the enormous amount of time and money they spend on it (including every shop sign, advertisement and t-shirt seemingly having (bafflingly odd) English on it, which is something I simply haven’t encountered anywhere else in the world), and given the higher proficiency levels in other nations that devote fewer resources to it.[/quote]
Many Taiwanese could not have a political discussion in Mandarin either.[/quote]
They can’t talk about American politics in English, but they sure talk taiwanese politics, mostly with their fists.
Taiwanese are known for poor english. That’s why many desk job outsourcing firms go to India, or southeast asia. Taiwan picks up manufacturing jobs, where no english proficiency is required.[/quote]
Mate, you keep coming up with these strange statements with no supporting evidence. “Taiwanese are known for poor english”…known by whom? compared to who? Its like saying “the French are known for poor Chinese”. Of course outsourcers look to India…Indians have a higher level of English for obvious historical and practical reasons. Taiwan is an East Asian country that was colonized by Japan so European languages are never going to be a strong suit. But its hardly a source of shame now is it?[/quote]
I’ve never said it’s shameful for Taiwanese to speak poor English. It is just a matter of fact that their English proficiency is piss poor.
[quote=“TaipeiD”][
I’ve never said it’s shameful for Taiwanese to speak poor English. It is just a matter of fact that their English proficiency is piss poor.[/quote]
Its not a matter of fact. Come on…compared to who? Other Asian countries? Sweden for gods sake? Define “piss poor”. IMHO Taiwanese speak English better than Mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Therefore they perform well when compared to their East Asian neighbors. You can’t keep making these sweeping generalisations without evidence or supporting arguments.
In general a foreign tourist in Taiwan can fairly quickly find assistance from an English-speaking local; more so than in many Asian countries. That’s a fairly good benchmark test. Why people seem to expect Taiwanese bus drivers to be able to discuss politics with all comers is beyond me. 
it’s also a matter of fact that many westerners living in Taiwan have a piss poor chinese.
Only in Taipei. There’s a lot more to Taiwan than just Taipei…
Do you have any evidence to back up your generalizations ? I don’t see any.
I’d say many native English speakers have the same problems 
[/quote]
Whenever somebody says that another person cannot have a political discussion in their native language, I wonder if they mistake not agreeing with their political views :no-no: for not being able to have a political discussion :soapbox: 
.
:bravo: :roflmao:
By the way, the only thing to expect in Taiwan is that most people will speak pretty good Mandarin and possibly pretty good Taiwanese (bearing in mind many Taiwanese do not speak good Taiwanese at all). The only thing to expect in Japan is that most people will speak pretty good Japanese. The only thing to expect in Germany is that most people will speak pretty good German.
Really cant expect anything else.
[quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“the bear”]
Its not a matter of fact. Come on…compared to who? Other Asian countries? Sweden for gods sake? Define “piss poor”. IMHO Taiwanese speak English better than Mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Therefore they perform well when compared to their East Asian neighbors. You can’t keep making these sweeping generalisations without evidence or supporting arguments.
[/quote]
Do you have any evidence to back up your generalizations ? I don’t see any.[/quote]
that’s why I prefaced the statement with “IMHO”. its very hard to quantify this stuff but its worth discussing. What you shouldn’t be doing is criticizing the locals and using phrases such as “piss poor” to describe their English skills. It just shows your own ignorance.
[quote=“the bear”][quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“the bear”]
Its not a matter of fact. Come on…compared to who? Other Asian countries? Sweden for gods sake? Define “piss poor”. IMHO Taiwanese speak English better than Mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Therefore they perform well when compared to their East Asian neighbors. You can’t keep making these sweeping generalisations without evidence or supporting arguments.
[/quote]
Do you have any evidence to back up your generalizations ? I don’t see any.[/quote]
that’s why I prefaced the statement with “IMHO”. its very hard to quantify this stuff but its worth discussing. What you shouldn’t be doing is criticizing the locals and using phrases such as “piss poor” to describe their English skills. It just shows your own ignorance.[/quote]
I’m with you totally on this point. I have been to Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. I think the Taiwanese have the best spoken English of the three. People will point out that Taiwanese score low on tests of English. IMHO that says more about the tests than it does about the Taiwanese.
I know a goodly number of born-n-bred Taiwanese who have excellent English, speaking and writing with surprising fluency. Some have studied and lived abroad, some haven’t.
[quote=“the bear”][quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“the bear”]
Its not a matter of fact. Come on…compared to who? Other Asian countries? Sweden for gods sake? Define “piss poor”. IMHO Taiwanese speak English better than Mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Therefore they perform well when compared to their East Asian neighbors. You can’t keep making these sweeping generalisations without evidence or supporting arguments.
[/quote]
Do you have any evidence to back up your generalizations ? I don’t see any.[/quote]
that’s why I prefaced the statement with “IMHO”. its very hard to quantify this stuff but its worth discussing. What you shouldn’t be doing is criticizing the locals and using phrases such as “piss poor” to describe their English skills. It just shows your own ignorance.[/quote]
Use evidence, for example, from test results?
"Taiwan is performing badly on the International English Language Testing System (IELTS), a recent report said.
In a report which listed the 20 countries that had the most people taking the language-proficiency test, Taiwan was only 17th, after Japan (12) and South Korea (14), and worse than Vietnam (13) and Pakistan (15), the Chinese-language United Evening News reported yesterday.
IELTS was developed by the University of Cambridge and is used to assess the English ability of students. About 700,000 people take the test every year."
"The United Evening News cited research by the British Council in the story as saying that Taiwan’s English-learning environment faces five main obstacles to effective English learning: first, it has no standardized teaching materials; second, there is no communication or guidance to improve students’ weak points; third, teaching design is restricting; fourth, teachers and material are not in accordance with international standards and fifth, a lack of sufficient learning facilities.
The report also quoted statistics from 104 Job Bank, an online recruitment service, that showed almost half of the jobs in Taiwan require a basic command of English. But although the demand for English in the workplace has gone up, the English level of Taiwanese is not improving, it said."
[quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“the bear”][quote=“TaipeiD”][quote=“the bear”]
Its not a matter of fact. Come on…compared to who? Other Asian countries? Sweden for gods sake? Define “piss poor”. IMHO Taiwanese speak English better than Mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Therefore they perform well when compared to their East Asian neighbors. You can’t keep making these sweeping generalisations without evidence or supporting arguments.
[/quote]
Do you have any evidence to back up your generalizations ? I don’t see any.[/quote]
that’s why I prefaced the statement with “IMHO”. its very hard to quantify this stuff but its worth discussing. What you shouldn’t be doing is criticizing the locals and using phrases such as “piss poor” to describe their English skills. It just shows your own ignorance.[/quote]
Use evidence, for example, from test results?
"Taiwan is performing badly on the International English Language Testing System (IELTS), a recent report said.
In a report which listed the 20 countries that had the most people taking the language-proficiency test, Taiwan was only 17th, after Japan (12) and South Korea (14), and worse than Vietnam (13) and Pakistan (15), the Chinese-language United Evening News reported yesterday.
IELTS was developed by the University of Cambridge and is used to assess the English ability of students. About 700,000 people take the test every year."
"The United Evening News cited research by the British Council in the story as saying that Taiwan’s English-learning environment faces five main obstacles to effective English learning: first, it has no standardized teaching materials; second, there is no communication or guidance to improve students’ weak points; third, teaching design is restricting; fourth, teachers and material are not in accordance with international standards and fifth, a lack of sufficient learning facilities.
The report also quoted statistics from 104 Job Bank, an online recruitment service, that showed almost half of the jobs in Taiwan require a basic command of English. But although the demand for English in the workplace has gone up, the English level of Taiwanese is not improving, it said."[/quote]
I agree on some points. But tests are not the end-all be-all of everything. A test is only a test of your ability to take tests :homer:.
A good idea would be for schools to scrap the stupid GEPT and require students to prepare for IELTS.
True - but some tests are better than others. Except, perhaps, for the GEPT, which may not be better than any others.
Anecdotal, of course, but in my experience TOEFL and IELTS scores seem to roughly correspond to how well a student can handle English. GEPT and TOEIC (in the old days anyway) had nothing to do with anything.
Note that the IELTS data is skewed by who’s actually taking the test - is it the same subset of the population in all countries? Is that subset in any way representative of English in that country as a whole? Isn’t it more like “people in Taiwan who want to study in Europe don’t have English that’s as good as people in these other countries that want to study in Europe”?
“Half of the jobs in Taiwan” require some basic English? Why?! Is that because of me and my bad tones trying to order hot and sour sleep soup?!
Tangentially related, I (and I assume lots of others here) got an invitation to the January 1st 2011 4:30am (!!!) ceremony to commemorate the 100th anniversary of something that had absolutely no relevance to Taiwan until 1945 or so. The letter’s fine (two very minor comma errors), but the form asks for information about “Attending adaependant (1 perosn limit)”.
Last year, Taiwan had a test average of 5.62, with an average of 5.81 points on the reading section, 5.66 for speaking, 5.52 for listening, and only 5.23 points for writing, the report said.
Although this report was conducted three years ago, it speaks volumes about students’ writing, which as an IELTS teacher and examiner, doesn’t suprise me. I’ve noticed improvements in Taiwanese students speaking. However, the writing is still bad, as a result of lack of ideas, an overdependency on memorised vocabulary, and limited grammar (all the more suprising when you consider the amount of time schools here devote to grammar). Yes, students can do well on controlled sentence practice, but ask them to write an essay, or even a paragraph, and it’s shocking.
I can relate to this. I teach writing. It can be a problem not to have students copy what I write on the board or only make a minor variation on it :neutral: .