…but what upsets me most is the complete inaction by the US government and the law.[/quote]
I don’t like this post. Its flippant and fails to address the real issue of using these magnificent beasts as mere tourism draws. I fucking HATE that business! :fume:
I know it was made in jest and is in the “fun and games” forum, but still.
There’s really nothing “fun and games” about this horrific exploitation. Its sick.
That whale is being banged up for life. Already done 20 years. Some would say that justice has only just been served. But sincere sympathies to those who were close to the trainer who died.
Remember MaLan the female Asian elephant at the TAipei zoo? Well one day she crushed a keeper. The public was in an uproar, they demanded the death penalty (in those days you either got LIfe or Death for just bout anything) . Later the ROC govt had to put out a newspaper ad explaining that since MaLan is in fact an ELEPHANT, she is not subject to the laws that govern ROC citizens. She is in fact NOT a citizen by virtue of being an ELEPHANT. Case dismissed…and the public backed down.
Tilly is not guilty by virtue of him being a KILLER WHALE. He doesnt even have to plead the INSANITY DEFENSE because he is pleading the KILLER WHALE DEFENSE.
Deep symphas to his trainer though. VEry sad that was. She was just trying to cheer him up really. Very sad. But I doubt the whale wanted to kill her. He doesnt understand that 12,000 pounds of blubber holding a person underwater for over six minutes is not a good thing.
He doesnt know that humans fall apart under this exact type of pressure.
I bet the poor woman who died totally abhorred the idea of dancing bears and all those other barbaric atrocities perpetuated for the titillation of the baying public, too.
There’s no difference in my mind. Women like her are no better than carney hucksters. She was part of a filthy and utterly disgusting industry.
[quote=“sandman”]
There’s no difference in my mind. Women like her are no better than carney hucksters. She was part of a filthy and utterly disgusting industry.[/quote]
Agreed. Which is why I will never take my kids to an animal theme park, or even a zoo. I recall being horrified as a nipper, watching those poor creatures being made to jump through hoops for the deranged amusement of us two legged apes, ugly bags of mostly polluted water.
[quote=“TheGingerMan”][quote=“sandman”]
There’s no difference in my mind. Women like her are no better than carney hucksters. She was part of a filthy and utterly disgusting industry.[/quote]
Agreed. Which is why I will never take my kids to an animal theme park, or even a zoo. I recall being horrified as a nipper, watching those poor creatures being made to jump through hoops for the deranged amusement of us two legged apes, ugly bags of mostly polluted water.[/quote]
Zoos can be a great educational tool. You can discuss with kids how the animals must feel in those small spaces, how they might have been captured, if we would like to be in the same situation, etc.
I totally agree with sandman: performing whales = dancing bears = one of the shames of our age.
I’m also completely against the idea of keeping marine mammals in captivity. In South Africa I never gave much thought to keeping wild animals in zoos as the conditions usually looked good to excellent and the animals seemed well cared for (as opposed to the poor beasts you find at the circus - one trip to the circus proved my last because of it), but my experience in Taiwan has completely changed this view.
Kaohsiung Zoo.
Tiled shallow water croc pool/habitat
Small cramped Hippo enclosure with filthy water
Tainan county Snake King World/Snake Park
Cramped and filthy primate cages
There is one very old orangutan that looks like he’s actually gone mad. And crocodiles are kept in filthy concrete pools that are extremely cramped with as many as twenty or thirty of them in one enclosure with no sunlight as it’s in doors.
However, marine mammals in captivity has never sat well with me and even as a child I could feel it was somehow wrong. What has really pushed me over the edge (not to mention made me almost completely anti-Japan, which I think should face an international boycott and total sanctions until they completely change their laws regarding the capture of marine mammals and fishing practices, regardless of how much they protest that it’s for “scientific” purposes) was watching the film The Cove.
I do not condone or support ANY businesses that keep marine mammals in captivity and have them perform “behaviors” (tricks). These animals should be revered, not enslaved for the enjoyment of humans.
It’s also a huge dis-sevice, IMO, to make a killer whale, or other large animal, seem tame by making it preform tricks for idiots in an audiance. They are wild animals, powerful beasts, and cannot be tammed. They are glorious in their own rights, not clownish oafs. Too many idiots out there, though, that just can’t think that abstractly when they see the big whale give a sweet kiss to it’s trainer.
I’ve taken my son to zoos here. The Memphis zoo is very, very good. They have preforming sea lions. We watched the show, but I made sure we had a conversation about how intelligent that animal was, and how it looks like it’s obeying the trainer, but if decided not to, it wouldn’t, and how it could very easily kill the trainer. My son came to the conclusion that the animals, though they have a very large, clean habitat, do not have enough room and must get bored and sad. I think he’s right.
[quote=“Stray Dog”][quote=“TheGingerMan”][quote=“sandman”]
There’s no difference in my mind. Women like her are no better than carney hucksters. She was part of a filthy and utterly disgusting industry.[/quote]
Agreed. Which is why I will never take my kids to an animal theme park, or even a zoo. I recall being horrified as a nipper, watching those poor creatures being made to jump through hoops for the deranged amusement of us two legged apes, ugly bags of mostly polluted water.[/quote]
Zoos can be a great educational tool. You can discuss with kids how the animals must feel in those small spaces, how they might have been captured, if we would like to be in the same situation, etc.[/quote]
i agree. My father and grandparents would do the same. I just don’t have the stomach for it, it makes me hang my head in shame at the depravity of so-called humanity.
It was always my impression that the role of zoos was for the education of visitors and for the continued study of the animals in captivity, with the additional benefits of breeder programs for rare/extinct animals as a means to protect the current biodiversity.
Secondly, it was my impression that the “aquatic animal trick shows” grew up almost by accident, initially the trainers player games with the animals for their entertainment and stimulation, and then some bright spark decided this was entertaining and a means of raising funds for the zoo.
I agree that the dirty, cramped cages are an aborration, but to tar all zoos with the same brush is a little extreme. However, I do not have issues with a well designed zoo, in which the animals remain stimulated and have sufficient space. Although this space is smaller than the wild, I do no think it needs to be as large as their “natural territory” since the feed (which is surely the reasons for the natural territory size) is brought in.
I think anyone who sees mistreated anmals at a young age would be turned off zoos, and seeing animals in the wild is a joy, but I think allowing many people the opportunity to see animals close up is a great function and helps youngsters and adults to appreciate the beuty and individualism of animals so preventing their mistreatment. I still remember the Tiger I saw strutting up and down at Singapore zoo, I was just 2-3 meters away on the other side of a pane of glass - incredible, I never before appreciated the size of a tiger before.
[quote=“itakitez”]It was always my impression that the role of zoos was for the education of visitors and for the continued study of the animals in captivity, with the additional benefits of breeder programs for rare/extinct animals as a means to protect the current biodiversity.
Secondly, it was my impression that the “aquatic animal trick shows” grew up almost by accident, initially the trainers player games with the animals for their entertainment and stimulation, and then some bright spark decided this was entertaining and a means of raising funds for the zoo.
I agree that the dirty, cramped cages are an aborration, but to tar all zoos with the same brush is a little extreme. However, I do not have issues with a well designed zoo, in which the animals remain stimulated and have sufficient space. Although this space is smaller than the wild, I do no think it needs to be as large as their “natural territory” since the feed (which is surely the reasons for the natural territory size) is brought in.
I think anyone who sees mistreated anmals at a young age would be turned off zoos, and seeing animals in the wild is a joy, but I think allowing many people the opportunity to see animals close up is a great function and helps youngsters and adults to appreciate the beuty and individualism of animals so preventing their mistreatment. I still remember the Tiger I saw strutting up and down at Singapore zoo, I was just 2-3 meters away on the other side of a pane of glass - incredible, I never before appreciated the size of a tiger before.[/quote]
Adding to that…
I don’t think enough can be said about what we actually learn from animals in zoos that can’t be collected in the wild. Understanding an animals behavior is the best way to help them. This makes zoos incredibly important for endangered species.
Tilikum 's living quarters is bout the same as confining a human being to a toilet . For 28 years?
He cant be released into the wild now as he will simply die. And he will still need to be looked after even if put into a large ocean pen. Keiko was very lonely and did not rejoin a pod of killer whales. He preferred to swim with children and eat from human hands. But i do think he enjoyed his ocean pen though. All current captive orcas should be put TOGETHER into a huge ocean pen. LIke a bay or something and live out their lives in relative comfort. They probably cant be fully released with no further human intervention though. Cept for ones that may be quite young.
Anybody know if the one Orca I saw in Taiwan is doing well? He was at Ocean Park in Yehliu and was just a youngster ten years ago.
He wasnt made to do any tricks at that time. At least no major ones like the dolfins do. But instead his keeper was swimming with him(or her) and he/she seemed rather happy then. And with lots of dolfin and human company.
According to Ric O’Barry, 24 of the 26 performing dolphins at Ocean Park in Hualien came from Taiji’s annual dolphin hunt and slaughter. It’s not just what the animals are made to do that’s cruel, nor the limited space they are kept in, but also the manner in which they are stolen from the wild.
[quote=“Stray Dog”]According to Ric O’Barry, 24 of the 26 performing dolphins at Ocean Park in Hualian came from Taiji’s annual dolphin hunt and slaughter. It’s not just what the animals are made to do that’s cruel, nor the limited space they are kept in, but also the manner in which they are stolen from the wild.
That link was full of “We have reason to believe” and “We think”. I would like to see his basis for these accusations. Otherwise his logic seems to stem from the idea that 9 dolphins might have died and it was not reported in the newspaper.
