MBA in Taiwan

Help time…

A business contact of mine from Australia is contemplating returning to Taiwan to study his MBA. He is currently studying an MBA part time in Oz, but wants to head to Taiwan to complete his MBA and do further Chinese language study.

His questions are…

  • international reputation/s of the Cheng Chi and Tai Da programs? Asia Inc, Asia Week, FT and Business Week all rank them quite highly for Asia programs.
  • he will be returning to Taiwan for the program after living here for 3 years previously.
  • wants to settle here (has Taiwanese wife) and feels the Taiwan MBA will give him a better chance of meeting local business people, networking etc.
  • any other info people have.
  • is the Oz MBA/Taiwan MBA tradeoff an issue?

Thanks.

[quote=“AWOL”]Help time…

A business contact of mine from Australia is contemplating returning to Taiwan to study his MBA. He is currently studying an MBA part time in Oz, but wants to head to Taiwan to complete his MBA and do further Chinese language study.

His questions are…

  • international reputation/s of the Cheng Chi and Tai-Da programs? Asia Inc, Asia Week, FT and Business Week all rank them quite highly for Asia programs.
  • he will be returning to Taiwan for the program after living here for 3 years previously.
  • wants to settle here (has Taiwanese wife) and feels the Taiwan MBA will give him a better chance of meeting local business people, networking etc.
  • any other info people have.
  • is the Oz MBA/Taiwan MBA tradeoff an issue?

Thanks.[/quote]Depends on his career goals. Cheng Chi and Tai-Da may rank among Asian programs, but that’s not saying much. In fact, that’s not saying ANYTHING.

Asian graduate programs are useless. Totally useless. FT ranksonly ONE Asian MBA in the top 50 worldwide (and one Aussie school). Tell your friend to go to the States, where everyone else goes to learn about business, I.T., and just about any other modern discipline. If he wants an Asian focus, he can go to school in California.

What can Asians teach the world about business?!?! Bribery 101? Nepotism for Newbies? Enslaving employees while evading taxes for successful CEOs?

Rank School
1 University of Pennsylvania: Wharton (US)
2 Harvard Business School (US)
3 Stanford University GSB (US)
4 University of Chicago GSB (US)
5 Columbia University GSB (US)
6 MIT: Sloan (US)
7 Insead (France)
8 London Business School (UK)
9 Northwestern University: Kellogg (US)
10 New York University: Stern (US)
11 IMD (Switz.)
12 University of California at Los Angeles: Anderson (US)
13 Dartmouth College: Tuck (US)
14 University of California at Berkeley: Haas (US)
15 Cornell University: Johnson (US)
16 University of Michigan Business School (US)
17 Carnegie Mellon University (US)
18 Duke University: Fuqua (US)
19 University of Western Ontario: Ivey (Canada)
20 Yale School of Management (US)
21 University of North Carolina: Kenan-Flagler (US)
22 University of Virginia: Darden (US)
23 University of Maryland: Smith (US)
24 Iese (Spain) 53.1
= University of Texas at Austin (US)
= Vanderbilt University: Owen (US)
27 Rotterdam School of Management (Netherlands)
28 Emory University: Goizueta (US)
29 Georgetown University: McDonough (US)
= University of Rochester: Simon (US)
31 Instituto de Empresa (Spain)
32 University of Southern California: Marshall (US)
33 Washington University: Olin (US)
34 University of Oxford: Said (UK)
35 York University: Schulich (Canada)
36 Manchester Business School (UK)
37 McGill University (Canada)
38 University of California at Irvine GSB (US)
39 SDA Bocconi (Italy)
40 Warwick Business School (UK)
41 Cranfield School of Management (UK)
42 Australian Graduate School of Management (Australia)
= Indiana University: Kelley (US)
= Purdue University: Krannert (US)
45 University of South Carolina: Moore (US)
46 University of Toronto: Rotman (Canada)
47 Southern Methodist University: Cox (US)
48 Hong Kong University of Science and Technology (China)
= University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (US)
50 Edinburgh University Management School (UK)

Where do you come off spouting this racist crap? Is this unique to Asia? Are you suggesting that Asian business schools teach this? Or is this some pitiful attempt at being funny?

Then if that is the case, what can Americans teach the world about business? Golden parachutes 101? Screwing the shareholders? Bilking taxpayers? Accounting ethics the Arthur Andersen way? War profiteering? Money laundering?

I can quickly think of quite a few Americans that are ethically challenged. Ever hear of Enron? Tyco? Worldcom? Martin Frankel? Ivan Boesky, Michael Mllken? the Savings & Loan scandal? I wonder which of those top 20 US business schools they learned their tricks from?

And it in not just recent history that American business people have been dishonest. See this for details of the Yazoo Land Scandal in which every member of the Georgia legislature but one accepted a bribe, post-Civil War shenanigans, and the Teapot Dome scandal. And even more info on western financial scandals is at this link.

So come on warmonkey, can’t you make posts on anything without including some repulsive digs or degrading comments about Asians?

Where do you come off spouting this racist crap? Is this unique to Asia? Are you suggesting that Asian business schools teach this? Or is this some pitiful attempt at being funny?

Then if that is the case, what can Americans teach the world about business? Golden parachutes 101? Screwing the shareholders? Bilking taxpayers? Accounting ethics the Arthur Andersen way? War profiteering? Money laundering?

I can quickly think of quite a few Americans that are ethically challenged. Ever hear of Enron? Tyco? Worldcom? Martin Frankel? Ivan Boesky, Michael Mllken? the Savings & Loan scandal? I wonder which of those top 20 US business schools they learned their tricks from?

And it in not just recent history that American business people have been dishonest. See this for details of the Yazoo Land Scandal in which every member of the Georgia legislature but one accepted a bribe, post-Civil War shenanigans, and the Teapot Dome scandal. And even more info on western financial scandals is at this link.

So come on warmonkey, can’t you make posts on anything without including some repulsive digs or degrading comments about Asians?[/quote]

wow. i gotta say, she’s got a point there. B-schools don’t teach ethics, not seriously. Law school ethics class are a joke. Though this is not to say that Asian b-schools are better or something, just that the educational system in US, as great as it is, doesn’t touch on certain ethical aspects of the real world or realizes its limitations. Look at the SEC fining the IBs left and right. I dunno what the Asian b-schools teach, so no comment there. There was some article about Harvard B-school and their “ethics” class. Quite a few of those scandals mentioned by Anna have links to this prestigious school. Graduates have commented on what a joke ethics class are either academically or as applied in the real world. Who’s gonna enforce it? Not unless the Govt steps in or the Top guys start some “trickle-down” effect.

The Asian problems you cite are indeed a problem. Crony Capitalism exists everywhere. the Asians are just a lot more open (either they don’t care about the image or they don’t know how to conceal it)
In the US, it’s all behind closed doors. gray area. How many times haven’t you heard of kickbacks in a biz deal?
Nepotism? i have heard of it… as a aside, ever heard of legacy admissions?
enslaving employees? sure. who do you think picks all the fruit in America. all the oranges, the grapes, the berries in CA and FL. There have been many documented cases of slavery (not legal, but de facto). Check out this month’s National Geographic.

People complain about the guanxi system in Asia. I don’t like it myself. but where does the term “old boys network” come from?

Still, I would goto a US biz school, because of the prestige, the curriculum, the connections (your classmates), and the professors, and finally the long history of law & modern economy. Dunno about Asian b-school, but I wouldn’t want the emphasis on memorizing stuff etc if that was the case. Who knows what they teach though… is there anyone a graduate here?
maybe they do try to instill a new theory that departs from the business as usual stuff.

as for the original poster’s question, wouldn’t a Asian MBA be fine in its region of influence ie its home country or geographic region?

MBA in asia or the West?

If the friend want to study here in asia, does he need to know how to read chinese (for exams in Taiwan)? I assume the books will be in english. Find out what level of chinese proficiency is needed when taking the MBA in Asia.

I assume that it would be harder to get into the prestigous <-sp? schools as well as expensive. If your friend can afford the time and money he should definately go to the schools in the West.

However, connections made at the MBA program here would be invaluable. Considering the economy is crowded with post graduate degrees, the connections thing would be good if he wants to work in Taiwan or China.

In the West, the MBA from Asia would not be looked upon as an MBA from the West. (My opinion)

If you friend as long term goals of working in asia, first go get a Western MBA but settling with an asian MBA isn’t bad.

I think there is a foreigner taking the EMBA program here. That’s rare and expensive. :shock:

As long as you friend has an idea what he wants to do with the MBA and knows he can get the job in that field then he might as well go for the MBA in Asia but the starting wages in asia are way much lower than the US.

I read a report where lots of white collared worker’s jobs in the US are being outsourced to India. Included were jobs from Morgan Stanley and other brokerages. ie Analysts position and such. The fact is that India can do the analyst’s job for a quarter of the salary. More and more white collared jobs are being outsourced.

I think your friend wants to work in China. That is the way to go as far as potential for jobs is concerned. Get into a multinational in Taiwan and get sent to China!

Kenny, let’s not forget about Bre-X.

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
wow. i gotta say, she’s got a point there. [/quote]
No she doesn’t. She an over-sensitive Asian who sees any criticism of Asia as racist. She must have recommended ‘nancywu’ to join Forumosa.

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
B-schools don’t teach ethics, not seriously. Law school ethics class are a joke. Though this is not to say that Asian b-schools are better or something, just that the educational system in US, as great as it is, doesn’t touch on certain ethical aspects of the real world or realizes its limitations. [/quote]
Just finished my Master’s from a large B-school in the States. Ethics classes were required.

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]Look at the SEC fining the IBs left and right.
[/quote] The SEC has laws that don’t even exist in places like Taiwan, Japan or Korea (much less China or SE Asia, except Singapore). Even Europe is having a hard time dealing with the new regulations and strict measures of Anglo-Saxon business and the new Sarbane Oxely Act.

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
who do you think picks all the fruit in America. all the oranges, the grapes, the berries in CA and FL. There have been many documented cases of slavery (not legal, but de facto). [/quote] Certain groups of Mexican immigrants, who live in exteme poverty in their homeland, see picking fruit in the US as a step up and a way to at least gain some economic opportunity. They do hard, physical labor and I’m sure there are unscrupulous men who take advantage of them. But this ‘management technique’ is not universal or enculturated in American business.

I’ve worked for two Taiwanese companies. Both of them expected their employees to work 70+ hrs. a week without much pay and with no non-work-related activities allowed (such as being able to check your email on a non-work account or looking at the Internet). My friends have told me they experience the same problems. Most Taiwanese professionals I’ve met said they wanted to work for foreign companies, so they could be treated better.

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
but where does the term “old boys network” come from?[/quote]
It’s a derogatory term to explain the West’s form of ‘guan-xi’. However, ‘guan-xi’ in Asia is not derogatory. It’s considered common sense. :unamused:

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
Still, I would goto a US biz school, because of the prestige, the curriculum, the connections (your classmates), and the professors, and finally the long history of law & modern economy. [/quote]
That’s why Asians go there, instead of studying in Asia. To be fair, the UK, Canada, and Australia (read: the Anglo-Saxon world) also attract a fair share of Asians looking for knowledge and opportunity.

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
as for the original poster’s question, wouldn’t a Asian MBA be fine in its region of influence ie its home country or geographic region?[/quote]All I know is that I’ve met Taiwanese with Master’s degrees from schools here (even NTU) who ended up going abroad to get another so they could have a better education and better career.

I would strongly advise against studying in Asia.

The book below, recommended by The Economist, sheds light on this discussion. Please read before you again post your 2 cents on business in Asia as compared to the West.

‘Asian Eclipse: Exposing the Dark Side of Business in Asia, Revised Edition’
by Michael Backman.

war monkey, i agree with your most of you original sentiments. however, why I took up anna wang’s post (and i can hardly believe it myself :wink: ) is that the business school and the business world reality in US is not all that it claims to be. you really didn’t rebut her examples of corporate wrongdoing in the past. many are endemic, not just aberrations of the system.
serious systemic problems do exist, in the past and the present, and should not be ignored. Enrons will come and go. the media hype will disappear. Will all that prevent the next Worldcom? the next S&L? (as opposed to SNL which seriously needs to be put out of its misery). Will that prevent workers from losing their pensions, etc because of more than a few bad CEOs?

as for the ethics class, yes they are required in law and b-school. my point is that they are a joke. no-one really takes them seriously. they are just a nuisance to get past. many of my classmates were already assholes who would step on us and sell their mothers to get ahead. A 2-unit course in ethics is not going to change their ethics.

I just tried to put a more balanced approach, not to ridicule you or something.

c’mon you can’t tell me the old boys network is a shameful term (it is if you are on the outside criticizing), but once you are in the societies with the golf memberships, the exclusive get togethers… then gimme a call. it’s really no different. it’s just human nature. asian guanxi is just as institutionalized as the western model. in the west, they are just more circumspect in general about it.

having said that, what b-schools in asia really need to teach, besides the things already covered, is what the words SERVICE and SERVICE INDUSTRY/SECTOR means… my goodness, aside from ChinaTrust, I have not met many nice service persons, aside from the occasional girl at the drink stands with their smiles and giggles. :wink:
I swear ChinaTrust must be the single only Taiwan local company that teaches their employees how to act right and be polite and helpful. they are awesome. plus they gave me a credit card. :wink:

Despite the Enrons, Worldcoms, etc. the USA comes out way ahead of East Asia (that was what what’s-her-face was arguing about, no?) in

Bribery in International business (Taiwan singled out for being especially naughty)

Corruption

and

Business effeciency, which includes responsibility
But of course, the USA is rarely #1. Those squeaky-clean Scandinavians and Aussies and other various Europeans do better. But notice the lack of Asian countries near the top. Only Singapore (the least Chinese-like of all Chinese places) and (in one case) HK, rank high (thank you Britain- the legacy of the empire lives on).

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
Asian guanxi is just as institutionalized as the western model. [/quote]I think you mean ‘common’, not institutionalized. There’s no Minstry of Guanxi (yet). It has no formal rules or procedures. It’s just endemic cronyism that passes as ‘culture’. The ‘good-old-boys network’ is not a model. Everyone knows it’s favoritism and it’s wrong.

There are credentials, and then there’s knowledge and ability. In the case of the MBA I have the credential (foolish post-college decision on my part), but wouldn’t recommend hiring me to administrate anybody’s business.

It used to be that an MBA credential was considered a stepping-stone to ever-more-glorious advancements and promotions. But this hasn’t been true for at least ten years–not even for the “name” schools–and sure as hell isn’t true in this economy. So don’t go just for the credential.

What about the knowledge? That really depends on your speciality. My impression is that marketing and management classes are mostly b.s. while finance, accounting, economics, and international trade are substantive subjects. (IT is too, but it changes very quickly and you don’t need to pay b-school prices to learn about computers anyway.)

An MBA from Tai Da or somewhere would make sense, if you’re happy setting yourself up to be unique–i.e. not following the traditional b-school career path. While Tai Da doesn’t have much of a reputation in the eyes of Newsweek, I think most employers would be impressed that you studied business in Chinese, regardless of whether they were hiring for positions in East Asia or not.

It IS easier, I think, for ethnic Chinese than others to set up a career in this part of the world. It may not be fair, but oh well, neither is life. And don’t let that discourage you if you’re not Chinese.

Hi girls!

Disagree with this part. Marketing and management, which are often misunderstood and abused terms, are the areas of importance. The others: finance, accounting, economics, international trade are commodities these days. Accounting, and IT in particular are next in line for the globalization shredder. As the United States suffers, China and India boom.

As Ford and GM putter along, Toyota and Hyundai rev it up.

You lot should go easy on the original poster by the way! She may have a point. If U.S. business schools are that great, how come U.S. companies are finding that doing business in China is not at easy as previously thought? The elusive profits from a share of the China market continue to dog many a company operating there.

Old George will soon be ranting, “Trade barriers, bring em on!”

Dunc

Despite the Enrons, Worldcoms, etc. the USA comes out way ahead of East Asia (that was what what’s-her-face was arguing about, no?) in

Bribery in International business (Taiwan singled out for being especially naughty)

Corruption

and

Business effeciency, which includes responsibility
But of course, the USA is rarely #1. Those squeaky-clean Scandinavians and Aussies and other various Europeans do better. But notice the lack of Asian countries near the top. Only Singapore (the least Chinese-like of all Chinese places) and (in one case) HK, rank high (thank you Britain- the legacy of the empire lives on).

[quote=“Kenny McCormick”]
Asian guanxi is just as institutionalized as the western model. [/quote]I think you mean ‘common’, not institutionalized. There’s no Minstry of Guanxi (yet). It has no formal rules or procedures. It’s just endemic cronyism that passes as ‘culture’. The ‘good-old-boys network’ is not a model. Everyone knows it’s favoritism and it’s wrong.[/quote]

  1. i don’t think what’s her face was saying asian business is cleaner than US. i think she was miffed that you have this (and i’m writing my interpretation of her of you only) holier-than-thou attitude when clearly US does have problems. but i get your point.

  2. i disagree that old-boys-network isn’t an institution, albeit not a formal government ministry, in US. it’s just hidden behind country golf club memberships, fancy restaurants, cigar bars and other “private” establishments. and it is a model to those who are on the inside. and it isn’t in danger of going away or being “shamed” into reform. yes, it’s decried as unfair… but hey, business as usual. tell me where the reform, the breaking down barriers are? Women CEOs? still a handful. (Fiorina of HP-Compaq for one), Minority CEOs?

Thanks all of those who stayed on topic. He plans a career in Taiwan and figured a whitey with a Taiwan MBA could either serve as a) a plus in the sense that he will be seen as special in a country full of Taiwanese grads or b) a minus in the sense that Taiwan business will see him as not good enough to get into a western program??

He has no desire to go the US or Europe for his MBA.

To warmonkey - out of curiosity… where are you working? You said you have a US MBA in one breath but in another you speak of working for crap wages at a local Taiwan company… just curious.

From the Financial Times and Asiaweek…

TOP ASIA PACIFIC MBA & BUSINESS SCHOOLS.

1 Melbourne Business School
2 Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad
3 Asian Institute of Management (Philippines)
4 Asian Institute of Technology, Thailand (School of Management)
5 NUS Business School (National University of Singapore)
6 Chinese University of Hong Kong
7 Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (Graduate School of Management)
8 Macquarie Graduate School of Management (Australia)
9 Nanyang Business School (Nanyang Technological University, Singapore)
10 Sasin Graduate Institute of Business and Administration (Chulalongkorn University, Thailand)
11 Monash Mount Eliza Business School (Australia)
12 Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore
13 International University of Japan (Graduate School of Management)
14 China Europe International Business School (China)
15 National Cheng-chi University, Taiwan (College of Commerce)
16 National Cheng-chi University, Taiwan (College of Commerce)

17 Brisbane Graduate School of Business (Queensland University of Technology, Australia)
18 Lahore University of Management Sciences (Pakistan)
19 University of Queensland, Australia (Graduate School of Management)
20 Seoul National University (College of Business Administration)
21 Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay (School of Management)
22 University of Adelaide, Australia (Graduate School of Management)
23 National Taiwan University of Science & Technology (College of Management)
24 University of the Philippines (College of Business Administration)
25 Curtin University of Technology, Australia (Graduate School of Business)
26 Mahanakorn University of Technology (Thailand)
27 International Management Institute (India)
28 Narsee Monjee Institute of Management Studies (India)
29 University of Technology Sydney (Graduate School of Business)
30 Birla Institute of Technology and Science (India)
31 T. A. Pai Management Institute, Manipal (India)
32 Bharathidasan Institute of Management (India)
33 Khon Kaen University, Thailand (College of Graduate Study in Management)
34 Ritsumeikan University, Japan (Graduate School of Business)
35 University of Malaya (Faculty of Business and Accountancy)
36 Malaysian Graduate School of Management (Universiti Putra Malaysia)
37 University of South Australia (International Graduate School of Management)
38 RMIT University, Australia (School of Management)
39 Hitotsubashi University, Japan (Faculty of Commerce)
40 University of Dhaka (Institute of Business Administration)
41 Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Institute of Science and Technology (Pakistan)
42 Universiti Sains Malaysia School of Management
43 B. K. School of Business Management (Gujarat University, India)
44 Aoyama Gakuin University, Japan (School of International Politics, Economics and Business)
45 University of Waikato Management School (New Zealand)
46 Chungnam National University, South Korea (College of Economics and Management)

I think there should be a poll and find out how many foreigners are here with an MBA and find out if the jobs they have in Taipei were what they expected when they came to Taiwan.

This way Awol’s friend could learn from fellow MBA peers in Taiwan. This would be a better indicator if he wants to get an MBA and work here.

Got my MBA ten years ago :shock: from the American Graduate School of International Management, or Thunderbird. Though my MBA program taught me almost nothing I needed to know at the time (it was nearly entirely focused on strategic issues that I didn’t have to deal with until five or six years after graduation), it got me in the door at various companies that helped me build my career.

I fully agree with those who say to stay away from Taiwenese MBA programs. In my view, they are only moderately worthwhile for Taiwanese people. If you have any hope of working for an MNC and/or a Western company, you’ve got to stick with a known school from the Western world. I’m not going to argue content of the various programs, but reputation. The real value of an MBA is in the reputation of the school you go to.

By “marketing” and “management” I mean the classes you take in school are b.s., not the subjects themselves which are obviously important. Good point on the farming out of other disciplines to Indja.

Tomas, you’re a T-Bird too?! I hear they have some kind of executive education program in Taipei, which maybe has some bearing on the original questions.

I have to caution people that T-Bird isn’t really a “name” school, though the alumni network may make up for that. (Not that I ever go–they ALWAYS meet in bars.) Now that AGSIM’s focus is no longer unique or even especially noteworthy, why not either save money or go to a school with a better rep? (T-Bird has never been very selective–I’m living proof of that!)

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]

Tomas, you’re a T-Bird too?! I hear they have some kind of executive education program in Taipei, which maybe has some bearing on the original questions.

I have to caution people that T-Bird isn’t really a “name” school, though the alumni network may make up for that. (Not that I ever go–they ALWAYS meet in bars.) Now that AGSIM’s focus is no longer unique or even especially noteworthy, why not either save money or go to a school with a better rep? (T-Bird has never been very selective–I’m living proof of that!)[/quote]

The only T-birds I’ve kept in touch with are a few friends from China and Taiwan.

No, T-bird isn’t Harvard or Yale, but it is routinely ranked among the top schools in international trade.

I actually thought the education I received there was of marginal use to me in my career, but any employer who considered me tended to fawn over the fact that I went to “such a great school.”

Harvard and Yale aren’t even in the top 3. Go Cocks!

usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/r … _brief.php

[quote=“sticks of fury”]I think there should be a poll and find out how many foreigners are here with an MBA and find out if the jobs they have in Taipei were what they expected when they came to Taiwan.[/quote]Good idea. But I’d bet a million betel nuts that there aren’t more than a dozen or so (excluding the short-timers that run through the Hsinchu science park on short-term deals).

I just don’t see many foreign professionals in Taiwan. I just see businessmen who come and go. It seems like no one moves to Taiwan to develop their career, other than a few expat foreign managers liv’n large in Tienmu. But they were sent here, they didn’t move here.

Regarding international business opportunities, Singapore, HK and Tokyo (maybe Seoul too) make Taiwan look like the backwater it (almost) is… with a fine MRT system and very nice looking ladies, though.

You can always start here and get a bitof experience before moving on. 1-2 years in a Taiwanese company might put you on the path to something good down the road - I have heard examples of that and I am now trying that way too.

Foreign professionals… I worked in an office stuffed with them - as a matter of fact, they were building careers in finance from scratch here.