Meanwhile in Catalonia...


#441

One of the most glorious Republics ever, whose fall was caused by the oppressive fascist regime of the spanish populist far right dictatorship.
But we, the people, will never forget.

Hasta la samfaina, siempre.


#442

That’s not what European representatives say. Maybe you are aware of the manipulative campaign that has been run by the Catalan nationalists recently… are you? you can dig some information in this very thread BTW.

No “democratic mandate” was repressed whatsoever. What made you think that? Indeed, some politicians in Catalonia used the public institutions for breaking the national and regional laws… even the ones that they themselves ruled. The nationalist parties suspended the local parliament in an attempt of muting the non nationalist parties. And they are being judged for that. Again, you are being manipulated my friend.


#443

Come on you guys. Don’t get @mad_masala started on Catalonia again. Didn’t you learn your lesson last time?


#444

They’ll never take our freedommmmmmm…


#445

I would like to know if the Presidential Office had that published before or after the outsted Catalan leader also released a statement supporting Taiwan.


#446

Sure, very Braveheart of you.

There are many videos on youtube, with interesting bits here and there… I understand that you don’t have the time for watching them, but I do think that it would be more than recommendable to get your facts right before saying something like what you said…


#447

I think Carles Pandemoniumonts google translate must be malfunctioning… :laughing:


#448

It turns out to be correct.


#449

Which part of what you said doesn’t apply to Taiwan’s fight to be recognized as an independent nation?

Think of it from Taiwan’s perspective, if the threat of angering some European nations (on average more enlightened than say… China) stops people for supporting an independence movement, who would ever come to Taiwan’s aid?


#450

Recently I’m having serious troubles following some of you. When have I said the contrary? In that regards yes Taiwan and Catalonia COULD be compared… indeed, if you look at specific aspects, you can find similitude among ANY pair of things you want, like for example and apple and a stone.

The problem is, again, that you have been misinformed with propaganda. And again, I’m not sure WHY we are talking about whether the case of Catalonia can be compared with Taiwan, but let’s do it if you want:

Taiwan is a de facto country, while Catalonia was never a country, nation, or independent territory.

Taiwan has been invaded and/or being under the rule of different countries. Catalonia was part of a kingdom that joined others to become what is known nowadays as Spain.

The current government of Taiwan is a democracy, and because of its history, there are people here who see the government as something that came from China, but not even those who came from China really want to be part of China, which BTW is the current status, even if not officially recognized by other countries. Catalonia on the other hand doesn’t have this history of occupations and shit. They were indeed fighting the French occupation, and had their own opinion on who should be the king in Spain, taking active part of on of the sides (this BTW has been sold by Catalan nationalists as a secession war when it was actually a succession one). Anyway, currently it’s just one of the many Autonomies in Spain, a region with one of the highest degrees of autonomy in Europe.

The infrastructures in Taiwan were created by… Taiwan (mainly). The infrastructures in Catalonia were created by Spain. There was a huge investment in that region during the dictatorship, during the “developmentism”.

China is a short of weird dictatorship, a country where human rights have no room. Spain is a modern democracy, ranking VERY high in the lists.

Taiwan’s current political status is the result of a war (or two, along some other things). Catalonia is a region of a country, fruit of the join of different forces, and although they never had any status important enough for deciding if they were a country or another, they voted MASSIVELY for the current constitution when the time came for that.

Again, not many people in Taiwan would claim that this is China (and Taiwan is a de facto country). Catalonia on the other hand is a region where there’s an independentist movement that has grown A LOT in the past 10 years, but they don’t even represent half the electorate. And this is after generations of brainwashing and using the public institutions for their egoistical agenda.


#451

Doesn’t Catalonia pay for a lot of the rest of Spain’s budget…Yea I recall that.


#452

Catalonia doesn’t pay anything. Where did you hear that? oh, yeah, the propaganda again.

Like in many other countries it is not the regions but the citizens who pay taxes. Catalonia doesn’t pay money “to Spain” (which is ridiculous BTW, for Catalonia is another region, same as Madrid).

Ironically these pro-independence liars have been saying this forever, using Germany as example. They publicly claimed that Germany was using something called “fiscal balances” for making sure that all the taxes paid in a region were reinvested locally, in that region, by the central government. Many Catalonian independentists still claim this, even though years ago Germany politicians already made clear they were NOT using that system at all, that that was something the said nationalists made up. Ooooops, one more lie… but who cares? people like you will keep repeating that.

Also, ironically, “Madrid pays” as much as “Catalonia” or even more in taxes than what it receives back. And nobody complains in Madrid. What a surprise! a modern nation distributing its wealth!!! LOL It’s called solidarity, and it’s absolutely needed when there are very different regions in a country, so that everybody can have public roads, public hospitals, and so on. What USA probably calls communism :smiley:

The funny thing is how some leftists suffer from this schizophrenia: on the one hand they think that rich people have to pay more and more money for supporting the country and its poor people (European countries would be seen as extreme socialism in the USA), but at the same time some of them claim that this region is being exploited. Interestingly enough, the richer the cities in Catalonia, the weaker the independentism feeling is. Indeed, there’s something (a movement, a parody of this nationalism claims) called Tabarnia: rich regions within Catalonia claiming to be independent from Tractoria (the poorer, more nationalist part of Catalonia).


#453

It is not his translation, I must say…


#454

Of course: it’s because they’re being corrupted, bribed and bought out by the Spanish regime. Trillions of pesos (?) are constantly being funneled into the pockets of wealthy Catalans in order to fight the growth of social discontent from the Catalan working class that is being exploited by the owner of Barca, who is controlled opposition.


#455

Presumably because they are less desperate hence the “xenophobic”, nationalist ideas are not needed for justifying anything. Typically crisis bring nationalism: all the problems come from others, from “outside”. We are good, the others are bad, and so on.


#456

Come on man, you are easier to wind up than a grandfather clock. :grin:


#457

If I remember correctly you did believe this stuff, you had bought in the freedom vs oppression story, probably because of how things were the last 40(?) years in your own country. So because I think you really thought what “Save Catalonia” and other propaganda said was real, I feel like I have to give you another, more accurate version./


#458

Actually I do believe Spain is repressing Catalonia or course it is.
But it’s a lot of fun watching you explode about every little piece of info you don’t like …Thad’s nationalism for ya.


#459

Yes, I know, and that’s why I give you artiles, videos and facts, so that you perhaps learn something and change your opinion. But you are a very opinionated person yourself, so I’m not sure if it’s possible. Still, that other version is there now, for whoever wants to know more. No serious entity, NGO, country, political party, etc… says that Catalonia is being repressed. The fact that for you 47% of electorate of a region is a region, and you persist on this error, tells us a lot about your position about it. And these (worrying high) numbers were reached only now, before nationalism was pretty marginal in Catalonia.

Again, I’m not exploding. I’ve been making fun of the nationalists, posting facts, explaining things, etc… but not really “exploding” or even getting angry.

Sorry, I might have missed something. What INFO?

what?


#460

I can’t help feeling that Spain is still struggling to break away from Franco. Juan Carlos , was just carrying on with similar things, and seemed to be the one in control of the new “Democracy” . This appears to have carried on amid huge corruption , within the political system… Catalonia has become a voice of dissent , but maybe it’s not purely about being independent, but a protest at the futility of the Spanish political system in general ? Not sure ?