Medicine: Chinese, herbalist, acupuncturist

Life Health & Fitness
1

[Original Subject: Chinese medicine]

Went to a renowned Chinese doctor. She took my pulse and told me my ills.

Reminded me of mind readers I’ve heard on call-in radio shows (in the UK). They ask a few questions and soon tell you you’re still missing your brother who died in a car crash. Can be very impressive. I’ve heard a debunker do it too, show how an acute listener can read reactions to probing questions, backtrack when the probes are obviously misdirected, and hone in on the “mind-read” details.

The doctor asked if my stomach hurt. No. My throat often tingles? No. Sometimes get sores in my mouth? Well, it has happened. Sometimes. She explained this is because of the hot qi coming from my lungs, and prescribed some expensive nasty-tasting powder.

You often hear anecdotes of miraculous diagnoses by Chinese doctors (a friend was told her womb was displaced, and lo-and-behold, a hospital later discovered: yes!) and mine is just an anecdote in the other direction.

My question: have there been any investigations of the record of respected Chinese doctors - the benefits of accupuncture are increasingly understood, what of the pulse-takers? Seems it would be easy: line up some people with chronic heart disease, cancer, ulcers in front of the doctors alongside some control patients.

I asked Taiwanese friends, they said wouldn’t work because Chinese medicine is holisitc, the cancer could just be a symptom. So the test would just be: are they seriously ill or not?

Chinese doctors have high social standing, go through a long training which has the useful effect of convincing society and the doctors themselves of their worth (same for Western doctors).

Patients pay a lot for medicine (I paid over NT$2,000) that tastes vile. All helps convince that Chinese medicine is effective (after all, I’m not a fool).

Anyone heard of any such surveys?

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I’ve had this form of diagnosis, but only once. Doctor told me: “No beer whatsoever.”
I thought: “Obviously a f***in’ quack.”
Next thing he said: “As much whisky as you want.”
I said: “My kind of doctor!”

His treatment worked extremely well, however. Or maybe I’d have got better anyway. Who knows, but I’d certainly consider it again.

In any case, I think its important not to confuse the diagnostic technique with the treatment. I agree that they seem to have incredible confidence in their ability to diagnose from just the pulse, but really, chances are if you go to a Western doctor, the disgnosis will almost certainly be based on no more than questioning, i.e. no laying-on of hands at all. Is it really so different?

And another thing. In my case, at least, one of the things I liked most about the pulse taker (for want of a better description – what are these guys called, anyway?) was the AMOUNT of TIME he spent with me. At least 10 minutes per consultation for five or six visits. That has to be a good thing.

I’ll give you a quid if you can get that from a western-style doctor in any local hospital (I think I read recently that they’re so overworked they can’t spend more than three minutes per patient).

What I do know is that there is great pressure, both from skeptics and many practitioners alike, for standarized, Western-style clinical trials for Chinese herbal medicine. At present, this is not done, which is one of the main problems in gaining scientific acceptance for these forms of treatment.

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Does anybody here go to a Chinese herbalist/acupuncturist? How is it? Do you have a good one you could recommend?

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Where are you located?

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I’m not there yet; I’ll be living near Renai Lu starting in July. My main question isn’t necessarily for a recommendation. I’m just interested to know what people’s experiences of traditional medicine are like there in Taiwan.

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Anyone interested in TCM diagnosis (actually it should involve asking questions, observing face and tongue and possibly smelling as well as pulse taking at the three depths) and indeed the whole oriental medicine paradigm should read the classic introduction for Westerners on the topic;
The Web that Has No Weaver, by Ted Kaptchuk.

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I am seeing a Chinese doctor (a woman) at Changgeng and have had excellent results with her. She’s “Dr. Xie” in the Department of Chinese Medicine, holds clinic on Sunday mornings and Tuesday afternoons at Changgeng in Taipei. I’m not posting my medical details on the web but if anybody has a real need to know more you can PM me and I’ll think about it. :wink:

The nasty-tasting powders, btw, can be masked more effectively with tea (Lipton double lemon is the best so far) or apple juice. I feel like a mad scientist testing out new potions to see which most effectively neutralizes what I think of as that “green moldy” taste.

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I thought you weren’t supposed to drink tea when you are taking herbal medicine - because it’s a diruretic and causes you to expel the herbal goodies before they have the desired effect, or something like that.

When I was 17 my friend John Liu from Hong Kong gave me some lonicera + forsythia formula pills (yin qiao jiedu wan

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My doctor is aware that I snarf that powder down with tea, and she doesn’t have a problem with it. Plus, the medications are certainly having their desired effects. So I guess it’s OK. Perhaps I’d have 10% more effect if I didn’t take it with tea, but then it would be 0% because I wouldn’t take it at all…

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I’ve been going practitioners of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) even before coming to Taiwan. Through pulse analysis and observation of physcial characteristics (tounge, face, etc.), they are able to make a pretty accurate diagnosis. I have had very good experiences with TCM (the medicine takes getting used to, I admit) and have found that they are able to cure ailments that western doctors would shrug at (like general low energy, lack of sleep, unexplicable headaches).

I have also been to qi gong practitioners who make a diagnosis by observing your qi and directing his qi to specific acupucture points in your body. It sounds hokie, but I have found it very effective. One practitioner in particular is able to take one look at a person and tell her aspects of her medical history that no one knew before. I have seen it with many, many people.

If you are interested in meeting them, send me a PM.

Mike

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This is just the kind of tale that got me to write the first message in this thread.

Many people in Taiwan, my wife included, believe in medical theories that are obviously fantastical if taken literally. No physical basis is offered (it’s always the ineffable qi) and no objective evidence is available.

I’m genuinely curious. The honourable JB and many other intelligent people are convinced. Why don’t they do double blind trials?

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[quote=“salmon”]
I’m genuinely curious. The honourable JB and many other intelligent people are convinced. Why don’t they do double blind trials?[/quote]

Trials of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) are out there (no pun intended), but they’re usually not very large or well controlled.

Offhand I can think of a few good reasons why there aren’t more such studies, money being the biggest. Controlled trials are very expensive and someone has to fund them. For Western medicine, funding usually comes from pharmaceutical companies or manufacturers of diagnostic devices. As far as I’m aware, most products used in TCM are not patented (I could be wrong) and are produced by numerous companies, so there’s far less money to be made by funding research. If your expensive clinical trial proves that bark of dungberry root cures the common cold, there’s nothing to stop dozens of other companies from producing it and even using your research for advertising. True, governments provide funding for research, but not nearly as much as the private sector.

Organization also contributes. In the US, for example, most trials are conducted through large hospitals or health care networks, simplifying logistics. In Taiwan, at least, TC seems to be much more decentralized.

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My aunt has had an interesting experience with a Chinese doctor recently, believe it or not at Stonybrook University Hospital in Long Island, NY. She has been having back pain and went for and MRI. To make a long story short the loud noise the MRI machine makes left her with a ringing in her ears she described as “torture.” After seeing a variety of doctors she tried this Chinese doctor who has been giving her acupuncture and herbal medicine. After a few weeks, the ringing is only a little better, but she claims she feels better and more energetic than she has in years. While the ringing is still bothering her she says the whole experience has almost been worth it. The doctors diagnosis was that her whole body is in terrible shape due to a kidney problem. This is what the doctor is attempting to treat. This seems to be a big part of the philosophy of CM, many kinds of problems can arise from problems in seemingly unrelated vital organs.

I tried CM seriously only once. For years I had horrible skin rashes. It was something that showed up here and there when I was in the States but it really got bad after i came to Taiwan. Tried many doctors and finally tried the CM in desperation. Drank the vile stuff for a week, to find the rashes were getting worse!!! Trekked back to the place to return the medicine. Quite a while afterwards discovered by accident that I am allergic to Chinese tea, so perhaps herbal medicine was not the best thing for me! I don’t hold this against the Chinese doctor as the Western doctors were equally unable to help me. Had to figure it out myself. Switched to coffee, and have been untroubled since.

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We had some people to work the other day giving people a check up, you hold one probe in you hand while they poke specific parts of your hands and feet with another probe, testing conductivity I guess. And they printed out a graph, and the low point on mine was saying my spleen wasn’t good.

A few months ago a ultrasonic scan showed I have an enlarged spleen. :s

What does an enlarged spleen mean ? WTF is a spleen anyway ?

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[quote]WTF is a spleen anyway ?
[/quote]
Dunno, but it sure feels good to vent it once in a while.

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[quote=“sandman”][quote]WTF is a spleen anyway ?
[/quote]
Dunno, but it sure feels good to vent it once in a while.[/quote]I do that, but it’s still swollen. From what I can find from google: The spleen filters out bad blood cells, but when it gets swollen it starts to filter out good blood cells too which makes it more swollen, then it outgrows the blood supply and parts of it die off due to lack to blood. :idunno:
Lots of causes from chronic infections that end in -osis to leukemia :bravo: