Medicine waking up that telling people to 'exercise more' and 'eat less' hasn't worked

Life Health & Fitness
142

It’s the same in Indonesia, except they spend huge amounts on religious ceremonies (at least in Bali). There are some ppl that are genuinely broke, but they’ve got no shame in ripping of tourists for everything they have. Yes, some of them can get offended at the offer of a fair exchange or actual work in return for money. I felt like a walking ATM, that’s why I ended up here. Taiwan is totally different.

The good thing about countries like Indonesia and the Philippines is that people are inventive, imaginative, and can change quickly… in Taiwan change can take years.

I wouldn’t approach any police, universities or any institutions directly. I just meant I’d set up a project in a town with a lot of students, and hope for a blind eye. If I got hassled, I’d just leave. Malaysia would be a good place for things like this.

From what I read the flowers are only one useful part of the plant.

143

Henhaochi and Finley: I mean in the ol country as in many other places in LatAm you have laws that determine who can sell, who can even buy. So in Taiwan you can sell whatever wherever, but if you tried the same in those places… they will send you to jail.

When my father was a high school dean, they had a small farm program on the premises, but the kids did not have that consciousness about the importance of agriculture since there is stigma over such work. They want to be models and millionaires and live la vida loca. Hence, they despise the related coursework.

In my country, they do not fear the foreigner doing what they do not want to do, but rather 1. doing something that would benefit someone else, not only theelite and 2. they may allow the foreigner to set shop only if they can take it away from him/cheat him, rob him blind and then eliminate him

144

[quote]Henhaochi and Finley: I mean in the ol country as in many other places in LatAm you have laws that determine who can sell, who can even buy. So in Taiwan you can sell whatever wherever, but if you tried the same in those places… they will send you to jail.
[/quote]

I have an idea how bad it can be in Latin America. I heard of small scale bed and breakfasts being raided by the police.

I grew up in the suburbs. There was a kid at school whose Dad was a farmer. Ppl used to tease him about it. Years later I remember thinking how stupid that was.

I would start in Costa Rica, or Argentina, maybe. After the 2002 crash I think they are more open minded and less bureaucratic. I still think organic projects like this are on the rise. I could find hundreds of examples on Google. You just have to pick a safe starting point in each continent.

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Yes, that’s my general attitude. I’m hoping a garbage-collection scheme will provide me with lots of cheap compost, and in the process reduce the general film of trash and smoke on what ought to be a pristine rural environment. If the local bigwigs object (which they undoubtedly will if they’re not taking a cut from it) I’ll just shut it down; if they get nasty, I’ll leave. You can’t really fight stuff like that as an outsider (or even as an insider).

Well, point is, if you don’t get the flowers, you don’t get any beans :slight_smile:. IMO the beans are the best bit.

I went to a very posh public school where several kids were from farming families. They were f-ing loaded. A farmer who can’t make money (or at least a good living) is simply incompetent, as far as I’m concerned. Even in an extractive regulatory environment, there must be ways and means. Maybe I’m being naive. I’ll find out in due course.

Yeah, that too, except in Asia you also have the “face” thing to contend with. Filipinos are terribly sensitive about being made to look bad - which is really hard to avoid, since doing bad things is an important aspect of daily life - so the government absolutely will not let the foreigner do something that has that result. There is a certain (understandable) fear of colonial meddling, but the idea of co-operation and mutual benefit is alien to many people there. The advantage - as HenHaoChi said - is that people are uncritically receptive to any passing idea, good or bad. I’m hoping I can throw a few good ones out there.

I think part of the problem here is that schools (in general) don’t teach practical subjects well. Agriculture doesn’t demand much “coursework” or book-learning. Of course there is some; but a lot of it is necessarily hands-on. The other problem is that, in the tropics especially, knowledge of farming is worse than backward. It was only in the 1980s that researchers in Brazil confirmed what had been suspected since the 50’s: tropical plants grow on the soil, not in it. The mulch layer is critical, and teaching farmers (or kids) to remove it, burn it or plough it is fundamentally criminal. Farmers spend their time knee-deep in mud, or following a carabao around, for absolutely no good reason. It’s no surprise the kids are disillusioned. Sure, there’s still some hard work involved, but personally I enjoy it, and there’s always a certain sort of active lad who finds his calling on the land. As for fame and fortune, $10-15K/hectare gross income would be a typical yield from modern organic farming, even in the third world. If your family has 10-15ha you’d be earning as much as the average model.

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I had to let this thread drop because it was too interesting and interfering with my work. Happy Holidays, everyone.

147

Maybe someone said this already but the US recently changed its cholesterol recommendation to “not a concern for overconsumption” for most people, which is a pretty huge shift.

148

The benefits of exercise far outweigh the effects of the air pollution.

I can understand why people think it’s hard to exercise. For too many years they have been given the wrong idea about what exercise is and how they should exercise. The best way to start exercising is to find something active that you enjoy. Brent enjoys running but many don’t. I enjoy hiking and biking but I need to add something a little more intense every week. Others enjoy racquetball, badminton or swimming. that’s a big part of getting out there and exercising.[/quote]

That’s debatable when air pollution levels are so high on certain days, even in Taipei and certainly in Taichung and Kaoshiung. It’s not a theoretical concern.

scientificamerican.com/artic … art-risks/

Now that was in the US, they simply don’t have the levels of air pollution that we face in this part of the world.

Personally I would be even more concerned about getting hit by another cyclist on the busy bikeways (somebody posted about a serious crash a while back) or getting hit by a motorised vehicle.

149

The link between cholesterol and heart attacks has been shown to be tenuous for at least a decade or so, it’s interesting how long it takes for mindsets to change. The ratio of LDL to HDL on the other hand is supposed to be a much better indicator.

150

Double Post ‘Insert interesting anecdote here’.

151

[quote=“Icon”]On that conspiracy, add the cultural disdain for agriculture and farmers and everything related, while big companies manage and own the land available to plant crops -owned by government officials, of course- and funnel the channels of trade and commerce so that the independent farmers can only sell through them on their terms -they set the commodities prices. Same old, same old.

People in favelas/slums have no land to cultivate or the land is not suitable. factory workers in dormitories have no place to plant healthy stuff. Nor does the up and coming family crammed in a multistory building. Living in the cities has deprived people from their link to the land. In the cities, the ones with plots of land do not plant food, they plant gardens and water consuming grass. The people in small villages may have a better diet for being separated from the processed stuff, but then they have less variety, as markets are stagnant. Actually, they are the most in danger of malnutrition from poverty and vulnerable to natural disaster -typhoons in Filipinas, droughts in Guatemala. And in most developing countries, more than half the people live in the cities. Land ownership in those countries is 1% of the people control 90% or more of the land.

And that is how you get say, Venezuela.[/quote]

One of the aces in Taiwan’s cards is perhaps the ongoing connection to the land that many people in towns and villages have. It’s a very common sight to see fields smack bang in the middle of towns and villages, or locals in suburban areas raising a cabbage patch along the river or some disturbed ground nearby.
I know that the land may be contaminated or they may use large amounts of pesticides sometimes…but it is gratifying to see how so many people still grow their own food in these semi urban areas.

I remember a while back I was visiting a small town in Miaoli, and standing on a bridge waiting for somebody to turn up. I got the shock of my life when somebody’s head popped up from the steep bank hauling themselves up a rope, with a bunchy of leafy greens in tow and a smile on their face. :lick:

In the office some of the office ladies have connections down South and will organise a group buy of these fish eggs or that rice, it’s pretty funny. We always come back from the in-laws weighed down with fresh fruit, fowl and veggies. :thumbsup:

152

[quote=“Icon”]
In my country, they do not fear the foreigner doing what they do not want to do, but rather 1. doing something that would benefit someone else, not only theelite and 2. they may allow the foreigner to set shop only if they can take it away from him/cheat him, rob him blind and then eliminate him[/quote]

you didn’t strike me as someone who came from China.

Wait, you mean there are other shitty places too?

153

[quote=“urodacus”][quote=“Icon”]
In my country, they do not fear the foreigner doing what they do not want to do, but rather 1. doing something that would benefit someone else, not only theelite and 2. they may allow the foreigner to set shop only if they can take it away from him/cheat him, rob him blind and then eliminate him[/quote]

you didn’t strike me as someone who came from China.

Wait, you mean there are other shitty places too?[/quote]

That is why they call it “the Latin Americanization of China”

154

I’m gonna catch up on the thread later, but just wanted to quickly add that, on the advice of my my favorite podcast (Rationally Speaking), I tried a smartphone weightloss app, and man has it worked out well for me so far (one month has seen me lose a kg a week). The only inhibiting factors have been the problem of counting calories accurately, and in the beginning there was also the temptation to cheat… IE, to “cook the books” as it were to make the numbers come out right. It has gone the other direction now - I’d rather over-estimate to compensate for innaccuracy. We’ll see how it goes.

EDIT: having just read the original article, though, I must note my comment is off-topic, as the research applies specifically to the obese. To quote:

[quote]“Importantly, these latter adaptations are not typically observed in individuals who are overweight, but occur only after obesity has been maintained for some time,” the authors say.

“Thus, improved lifestyle choices might be sufficient for lasting reductions in bodyweight prior to sustained obesity. Once obesity is established, however, bodyweight seems to become biologically stamped in and defended.”[/quote]

So maybe the point there - or one facet of it - is the same one I always make about quitting smoking: the easiest way is DON’T FRACKING START. But in the case of obesity, that could also be a callous, ignorant dismissal of a much more complicated problem.

155

Gwyneth Paltrow tried to make a point regarding healthy eating and is now receiving a lot of flack because what she picked, while nutritious and healthy, would not provide enough calories for people who do manual labor. I do believe her choice was based on what was available and known to her, which unfortunately, would not be available nor known to most working class people on food stamps. Fresh veggies in inner cities?

[quote]Batali designed the challenge to prove the difficulty of living on only $1.38 per day and prevent any further Congressional budget cuts to SNAP (the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program, or food stamps). As an attempt to raise awareness of the importance of SNAP, Paltrow’s attempt to live on $29 for a week was a good-natured effort. The result of said effort, however, does little to combat the idea that she’s out of touch.
…
As the Frisky deduced, the caloric content of the items Paltrow bought is underwhelming. “People who live on SNAP benefits don’t just have to get nutrients, they have to get actual calories,” Rebecca Vipond Brink writes on the Frisky. “They tend to have very physical lives, doing service labor and taking care of children and not necessarily being able to afford a car and so forth.”

The total number of calories provided by Paltrow’s cilantro, avocado, limes and more hits a total of just over 7,000 calories, as calculated by Brink. Five of the items — lettuce, scallions, cilantro, jalapeño and kale — have virtually no caloric content at all. A thousand calories a day might be fine for Paltrow, who has the option to not be physically active every day. But a woman similar in stature and size who takes care of kids and has no car would be significantly undernourished by Paltrow’s vitamin-heavy selections.

That’s not the only reason Paltrow’s purchases are unreasonable. Families living on food stamps also don’t necessarily have a Whole Foods right down the street, or a similar fresh food market. The U.S. Department of Agriculture estimated 23.5 million people are living in food deserts, or what the Agriculture calls “urban neighborhoods and rural towns without ready access to fresh, healthy and affordable food.” Most of the food nearby is processed or fast food.
…
As one could expect, Paltrow is receiving a great amount of online flack for this. The truth is that Paltrow was likely trying to do something good here, with no malicious intent. Raising awareness about the tightness of SNAP’s budget is a noble cause; ironically, by putting together such an oblivious selection of items, she might have done more for raising awareness than had she done the challenge well.
[/quote]
SOURCE

Fascinating … on all sides.

156

[quote=“Icon”]Fresh veggies in inner cities?

but food isn’t just about calories. if anyone wants extra calories, especially those who does manual labor can get their fill by consuming fiber rich carbohydrates. Brown rice, quinoa, there are many cheap and healthier ways to get carbohydrates…

And the benefit of fresh produce shouldn’t be over looked just because one does hard labor. Sure frozen meat is cheap and easy to store, but seriously, how hard is it to store jalapeño? Those things last a good long while in normal room temp anyway. At the end of the day I wonder if it all comes down to easy access. People joggling jobs and kids are just too tired to actually cook something themselves everyday.

157

[quote=“hansioux”]but food isn’t just about calories. if anyone wants extra calories, especially those who does manual labor can get their fill by consuming fiber rich carbohydrates. Brown rice, quinoa, there are many cheap and healthier ways to get carbohydrates…

And the benefit of fresh produce shouldn’t be over looked just because one does hard labor. Sure frozen meat is cheap and easy to store, but seriously, how hard is it to store jalapeño? Those things last a good long while in normal room temp anyway. [/quote]

Indeed. It seems to me that whenever anyone points out that the poor aren’t as poor as they think, the hemp-sandal brigade are quick to jump down their neck and tell them to check their privilege. Which is basically the same thing as telling the poor they should know their place and not get any funny ideas.

It’s tough in the US - much tougher than Europe. There is no effective minimum wage, public transport is virtually non-existent, and the food is shit. Nevertheless there are things you can do. The reality is that food is, for all practical purposes, free. That’s why agribusiness makes such huge profits. The trick for the poor is to tap into that source of low-cost food, rather than waiting for the government to give them the scrapings off the floor. For example, if people need calories, they can buy rice, flour, and potatoes in 25kg sacks for US$15. Carrots, turnips, beets, corn and suchlike are about twice that ($1/kg on average). So what you do is you get together with six other low-income families, you pay for a taxi to haul back 200kg of bulk grains and vegetables from the wholesaler (6x$29 = $174), and you split them between yourselves. 33kg of rice, beans, veg etc feeds two people for at least a week. Pain in the ass? Certainly. Slightly degrading? Maybe. A little bit boring? You bet. But the alternative is to hold out your begging bowl and hope TPTB put something nice in it. Which they won’t.

For families which can chip in a bit more (I bet there are plenty that can) half a pig costs ~$300 and has about 60kg of meat. If you make it last 2 months, that’s 200g of meat per day per family, for an extra $1 a day. Similar logic applies to milk, eggs, etc. Anyone who can’t afford that needs to ask themselves how much they’re spending on their cellphone tariff, the cable TV connection, or their cigarette/beer bill before complaining that food is expensive. It just isn’t.

See here for a typical bulk price list:

ams.usda.gov/mnreports/ra_fv001.txt

I agree, but surely the solution here is to work less. I’m pretty sure some people work excessive hours because they think they need (say) a car … so that they can drive to work to earn the $5000 a year that it costs to run a car. You have a choice: you can feed your car, or you can feed yourself. Yes, some people get to do both. The world is unfair. Make the decision.

158

I agree with Hansioux regarding that it sounds weird to be so critical when the choice is based on health rather than calories. There must be a balance.

Reminds me of the saga of this guy that people crowdfunded a car for him because of a news piece telling how he had to travel -mostly by foot - 2 hours back and forth every day for -I can’t recall but well over a decade- many years, because he simply could not afford to lose his job and there were no jobs in his area.

And another article about two US sociologists who determined patterns of where -which urban areas in US cities- crimes would crop depending on children’s access to health services, school, education, and most importantly, daily meals. Once health services where provided, crime rates plummeted.

It is hard to picture the hopelessness and vacuum of social “integrity” -connectivity between humans I’d call it, by participating in social and economic activities- in certain areas. Access to health, education, availability of work. It is rather complicated, or we humans have made it complicated.

I just think that for instance, in the ol country, it is not the hungry people taking over land not being used, but rather professional con artists who sell and resell the property when it finally becomes them after 5, 10 years of squatting there. My mom and pop’s generation was very poor, and the kids would roam the coffee plantations when they were too small to work in them yet, so they could eat the fruit from the trees that provided shade. they could also trade their services taking care of cows and poultry for bags of corn or rice. The families would live in the haciendas, and most probably have a small subsistence agriculture plot. Alas, nowadays, we have built suburban sprawls over the best farming land, import all our food, export all our crops and meat and milk, and are left with a lot of hungry people that cannot just go next door and at least eat mangoes. Maybe the kids parents are spending their money on a flat screen TV but I bet most is going down their throats in liquor and beer -or up their noses or whatever is fashionable these days.

159

[quote=“finley”][quote=“hansioux”]but food isn’t just about calories. if anyone wants extra calories, especially those who does manual labor can get their fill by consuming fiber rich carbohydrates. Brown rice, quinoa, there are many cheap and healthier ways to get carbohydrates…

And the benefit of fresh produce shouldn’t be over looked just because one does hard labor. Sure frozen meat is cheap and easy to store, but seriously, how hard is it to store jalapeño? Those things last a good long while in normal room temp anyway. [/quote]

Indeed. It seems to me that whenever anyone points out that the poor aren’t as poor as they think, the hemp-sandal brigade are quick to jump down their neck and tell them to check their privilege. Which is basically the same thing as telling the poor they should know their place and not get any funny ideas.

It’s tough in the US - much tougher than Europe. There is no effective minimum wage, public transport is virtually non-existent, and the food is shit. Nevertheless there are things you can do. The reality is that food is, for all practical purposes, free. That’s why agribusiness makes such huge profits. The trick for the poor is to tap into that source of low-cost food, rather than waiting for the government to give them the scrapings off the floor. For example, if people need calories, they can buy rice, flour, and potatoes in 25kg sacks for US$15. Carrots, turnips, beets, corn and suchlike are about twice that ($1/kg on average). So what you do is you get together with six other low-income families, you pay for a taxi to haul back 200kg of bulk grains and vegetables from the wholesaler (6x$29 = $174), and you split them between yourselves. 33kg of rice, beans, veg etc feeds two people for at least a week. Pain in the ass? Certainly. Slightly degrading? Maybe. A little bit boring? You bet. But the alternative is to hold out your begging bowl and hope TPTB put something nice in it. Which they won’t.

For families which can chip in a bit more (I bet there are plenty that can) half a pig costs ~$300 and has about 60kg of meat. If you make it last 2 months, that’s 200g of meat per day per family, for an extra $1 a day. Similar logic applies to milk, eggs, etc. Anyone who can’t afford that needs to ask themselves how much they’re spending on their cellphone tariff, the cable TV connection, or their cigarette/beer bill before complaining that food is expensive. It just isn’t.

See here for a typical bulk price list:

ams.usda.gov/mnreports/ra_fv001.txt

I agree, but surely the solution here is to work less. I’m pretty sure some people work excessive hours because they think they need (say) a car … so that they can drive to work to earn the $5000 a year that it costs to run a car. You have a choice: you can feed your car, or you can feed yourself. Yes, some people get to do both. The world is unfair. Make the decision.[/quote]

Yep. When I was young and set on being a writer I said I would never starve. No matter what ai would eat properly and exercise. Always have.

When I was writing my first book I borrowed my uncle’s cabin for 6 months. Got him to take me to Costco for bulk bags of rice and beans. I decided to gain weight so went on a 5000 calorie a day diet. Never spent more than US$150 a month on food.

I should have written a book on that and not the unreadable novel that resulted. :laughing:

160

Funnily enough, this is what I’m doing at the moment (I’m about halfway through). We were dirt-poor when I was a kid and I didn’t learn to manage my money properly until well into my 20s. I think the basic problem is that everyone (me included) just follows the herd. You drive to work. You get your food from the supermarket. You pay X, Y and Z for this and that because everyone else does. And then at the end of the month you wonder: where the fuck did my money go? Well, where it went is that you pissed it down the drain, but you maybe didn’t realise it.

I have met so many people who are “poor” - and in many different ways, they are - who need not be. I was one of them, and I figured I’d just try to write it all down as best I can, and boil down my own mistakes into a few simple rules. I’ve also written quite a lot about food and how to make the most of what you’ve got.

I guess I’ll put it on Amazon for 99 cents. It won’t make me rich but I’m curious to see if anyone buys it, and what kind of negative reaction I’ll get from the politically-correct crowd.

161

The example Icon mentioned of what’s it like to come from a poor community in the US…it’s not easy! One can’t help thinking his life in the EU (social welfare/subsidized and better public transport) and Taiwan (easy access to local housing/cheap scooters for all) would be a whole lot easier.

First a 23 mile commute on bus including 8 mile hike each way and 2 hours a night sleep for years and years.

Then the car.
time.com/3693451/james-robertson … ckstarter/

Then a WHOLE load of trouble :slight_smile:.
freep.com/story/news/local/m … er-update/

There’s no way a guy living this kind of life is going to have time to look after his healthy food needs (at least he was getting exercise though). Interestingly I have colleagues in the US who are well off but who are also time stressed to look after their health and also forced to do quite long commutes and deal with sleep deprivation due to international travel and 24/7 work schedules.