Men!

Mehhhh…
You’re right. I’m cynical and jaded. Too young for it, too young for it!

But goddamnit I have good reason to be!

I’m trying to imagine the saga, or maybe the horror, of exploring who I am and discovering that I’m tommy525.

Imagine, you go through life believing all kinds of good stuff about yourself and your life. But one day, the reality hits you. So you become dissatisified, and start wanting to experiment with being someone else for a while.

I remember there was a period where I wanted to be Tomas, because he was what housecat said. But then it turned out he wasn’t really Tomas, he was just some guy experimenting. Eventually, he gave it up and became the dreamboat we all know him as today instead. I’m sure there are people who have been through a similar process, but instead have discovered that they are not the person they were brought up to be. All that permanent loving relationship stuff they believed in becomes a drag, and they start fantasising about all the other things they could be doing, or have done.

I heard it described somewhere once in terms of human beings having too much imagination. Whatever path you choose, however fulfilling it may be, you are always aware of all the other paths you haven’t explored yet. The wife and kids may be nearly as much fun as the mortgage and the grinding monotony of your day job, but a part of you always yearns for something else. No matter how happy you are, it is built into us that we always want more and different.*

As Muzha Man points out, it’s up to us whether we give in to temptation. But CHOOSING not to is an act of great maturity. Most of us are too weak, and I have a hard time condemning anyone for just being weak. All the same, if you’re going to stray, then I think you should admit it and deal with the consequences. Otherwise you just CHOOSE to be not in control, and never mature.

  • we: not the sheeple.

I’ve realised that men ARE dogs. Of course we do what we’re told, when somene is watching. But turn your back and we’ll be eating the garbage and humping anything that moves.

Try telling a dog off for peeing on Maoman’s Christmas Tree. (Mine did that.) Of course he will be sorry, possibly he will be completely bereft at your pain, and will vow to the deepest core of his being that he will never do that again. But as soon as you turn your back, his nose starts twitching with all sorts of exciting stimuli and his brain gets filled up with the promise of delights to be had if he can just slink away unnoticed for five minutes. Men are no different.

[quote=“tommy525”]Theres certainly men who dont cheat. And theres certainly more who are not stoopid enough to get caught :smiley:
And I might add, just as many women cheat as men and many even more blatantly.
Men and women are really the same under the skin.[/quote]

Some genuine wise words from Tommy there. Statistically, women are all out there doing the exact same thing. They’re just have more options when it comes to not getting pregnant.

It’s worth bearing in mind why people (not men) cheat. Often, it’s not because they want to sample some different flavours, it’s because they don’t feel loved. Those women who “love [their husbands] more than they deserve” - have they asked those husbands what they think about that? If those men answered honestly, they may have an emotional shopping list of unmet needs that women think men aren’t even capable of thinking about. Sure, sex is nice, but it’s even more of a thrill to spend time with someone who genuinely enjoys your company, instead of with someone whose topic of conversation for the day is that you don’t take out the garbage when you’re told to.

On that theme, do any of those wives spend way too much time being “too tired” for sex with their husbands, or using it as a switch-and-bait to keep them under the thumb? It does happen. Implicit in the promise to be faithful to each other is that you’ll actually have sex with each other; and (both of you) keep in shape so that your wife/husband actually wants to, instead of assuming that because you’re married it’s OK to turn into a sack of potatoes, slouched on the couch channel-surfing for soaps and moaning about what an asshole your husband is.

Pretty much the same applies to women cheating, of course - but everyone “understands” about that.

That’s maybe a different way of saying the same thing - if you and your partner can explore those different things together (I’m not talking about the ‘sex with other people’ bit, although of course some people are cool with that) then you’re both going to be a lot happier in a monogamous relationship.

Not trying to put you off in your search, of course :smiley: Just pointing out that a man who’s getting what he needs at home (damn, I’m sounding like Tommy there) won’t go looking elsewhere. Right up until the very end of my last relationship, the woman I thought about and wanted was the woman I was with. It was just a pity she didn’t think the same about me. It’s your response that makes the difference, not his cheatin’ heart.

I think we need to distinguish between what people call “mistakes” and the type of gross two-faced behind-the-back stuff Housecat has described. Those are just plain relationship tearing affairs that happen not because people are weak about sex, but about being honest.

I doubt many decades long relationships have not had some infidelity but as long as the committment is to each other a couple can survive. Some confront it openly, some just leave it unspoken. But as soon as you deliberately start having an ongoing affair, for whatever reason, you have made up your mind that your partner doesn’t matter anymore and you should leave.

I disagree with what finley has said because it doesn’t really matter what the other person is doing. If you feel unloved, unvalued, unfulfilled then leave the relationship.

That’s true, of course, but some people think (for practical reasons - kids, for example) they can’t do that, and sometimes the parter-being-dumped can get awfully vindictive when it comes to divorce settlements. If people could simply agree that it isn’t working out and go their separate ways, fine - but people who no longer love each other are unlikely to agree on anything. And I wasn’t saying the other partner’s behaviour determines whether or not infidelity is acceptable or forgivable - simply that what they do can (quite predictably) precipitate it or prevent it.

That’s true, of course, but some people think (for practical reasons - kids, for example) they can’t do that, and sometimes the parter-being-dumped can get awfully vindictive when it comes to divorce settlements. If people could simply agree that it isn’t working out and go their separate ways, fine - but people who no longer love each other are unlikely to agree on anything. And I wasn’t saying the other partner’s behaviour determines whether or not infidelity is acceptable or forgivable - simply that what they do can (quite predictably) precipitate it or prevent it.[/quote]

Hard cases make bad laws. The examples you are giving are not what Housecat and most of us are considering. We are talking about general infidelity when things are otherwise going well or normally because as some are arguing it’s just human nature to be pigs.

Dunno about that. Look back at the original post - they’re all “husbands”, and I suspect deeply unhappy husbands (OK, a couple of them also appear to be dickheads, but there’s not enough info to make that judgement for sure).

Just try a straw poll of half-a-dozen mates and ask them if they would consider actively looking for a bit on the side while things are going well with their SO.* You’ll probably get one “hur hur yeah sure” and a lot of quizzical stares. I can’t imagine doing such a thing. I mean, why bother? Fair enough, maybe that’s just me. In which case, housecat, they are out there.

*by “going well” I mean a good shag twice a day, a lot of other shared enjoyment, and minimal disagreement over things that, in the grand scheme of things, don’t really matter.

That’s true, of course, but some people think (for practical reasons - kids, for example) they can’t do that, and sometimes the parter-being-dumped can get awfully vindictive when it comes to divorce settlements. If people could simply agree that it isn’t working out and go their separate ways, fine - but people who no longer love each other are unlikely to agree on anything. And I wasn’t saying the other partner’s behaviour determines whether or not infidelity is acceptable or forgivable - simply that what they do can (quite predictably) precipitate it or prevent it.[/quote]
Hard cases make bad laws. The examples you are giving are not what Housecat and most of us are considering. We are talking about general infidelity when things are otherwise going well or normally because as some are arguing it’s just human nature to be pigs.[/quote]
I’m glad these cases are left out of the convo. Its a completely different level of “That sucks.”


First, I find it difficult and less-useful to discuss this all in the third person ("A person feels, etc). For a topic like this its very easy to get on a high horse fast- especially if you’ve not been in such a situation. The following is besides the idea that most people cheat/will cheat if they could and others simply would never- all for various and very personal reasons.

I’ve been on both sides of the cheating spectrum. I USED to be of the opinion that should you fall from grace and indeed cheat, you should come clean. I did this and wo-HOAH did that fail big time. I was trying to explain “it meant nothing and youve been away so far” and blah blah (really it meant nothing and changed in no way my feelings for SO). But as I said, it completely back-fired. It destroyed the relationship cause all trust was lost. Ok, fine. N/B: I completely didn’t feel bad about committing the act itself becasue it. meant. nothing. to me. I felt awful for hurting my SO. Notice the difference.

Fast-forward a few years and I meet guy with planes cheating on his fiance, girl of 5 years. I was POSITIVELY disgusted by the fact that noone had told her. I explained that he had no right altering her reality into something he wanted her to think it was (lying).

And somewhere in those time periods I had been cheated on. Was hurt but kept trying to remember how I felt when I had been the perpetrator.

Now today. Having been on both sides and the fly on the wall, in my opinion, telling someone you’ve cheated if it was a one-time fling is imo the dumbest thing you can do if all else is well. I wish I hadn’t told my SO; it simply caused him unnecessary pain and its taken us several years to try to mend it into a relationship that isn’t built on bitterness (and I’m talking about the resulting “friendship” here). However, plane-dude cheating for 5 years is detestable and situations like that need to stop. Youre literally building an entire person’s life and future on lies and boxing them into it, which is exactly the opposite of liberty, freedom, and right to self-determination. How could someone do that to someone they supposed love?

And this is, in the most coherent manner I can come up with, is my philosophy. Its built on experience and values, not lofty ideals of how the world should be.

By the way, and I’m surprised noone has mentioned this, but some people cheat not because they are dogs- as Loretta and the overall tone of this thread makes it sound- but also because they are not willing/capable/emotionally-sound enough to commit to one person. Maybe they have trust issues or attachment. That doesn’t make them a “dog”, just someone who can’t quite figure out what to do.

Psh, this ain’t nuthin.

:help:

You know how some days you wake up you are one person and other days you wake up and you are another person? Some days you are gungho about this and other days you are Meh bout it and gungho bout something else. Some days you wonder why it is that you dont drive your car smoothly and enjoy the serenity and why other days you drive like a bat out of hell and scan the horizon for cops?

Same with your life you wanna do good most days partly because you fear the evil you can be partly because doing good feels right and is “good”, brownie points for heaven. Other days you are not the saint you wanted to be.

People change they do, even you change whether you see it or not.

We are shaped by what our lives are today to feel what we feel today. Yesterday we felt different because our world was not the same. Tomorrow we may yet change because our world changed.

We are chameleons in the fabric of our existence .

Some days I believe in true love and continue to search for my “better” half while other days i am convinced she died and I will never find my “better” half.

Some days I feel jaded and feel my current love will turn to hate for her and for myself. Other days I feel she can complete me. She can make me a better person. She can make me strive to be more pure.

Some days i feel marriage is a sham created by tradition and hollywood and peer pressure. Other days I feel maybe there is a magic there that i missed.

Some days I feel marriage should automatically expire after five years like a drivers license, unless renewed. Because in five years so much could have changed in our world both individually and collectively.

Maybe in an utopian world, there would be freedom to explore new people at will and babies would be artificially inseminated and raised by govt institutions while those of us not selected to give sperm could just be fixed and be free to bang at will. Where there is no risk of disease being passed around.

Maybe love really is an illusion, just a temporary comedic tragedy in order to beget children?

Some days im cynical, i believe that I am pure, that I am worthy to be a knight crusading for love that is true and long lasting and full of valor, but I am with a mate who is a virtual harlot whos heart I cant capture.

Truth is we really are shaped by our circumstances much more so then we know. We mold ourselves by what we see, and “learn” .

Most of us are able to give in to temptation. I know that just recently I came across two fine specimens of 20 something ladies that I just couldnt stop thinking carnal thoughts bout ? IF i was married (happily) would i not think those thoughts? Nah, id think em but not act on em. Because quite simply put. Love does not survive a threesome.

nuf ramblin for now, lets see what youz got to say ya’ll

Some men, sure. Not all.
Just like some women like buying Gucci or whatever. Me, personally, I’ve yet to engage with a woman who is brand-conscious to that degree, although I know they’re around. Most of my male friends, likewise, DON’T eat the garbage and hump anything that moves, whether anyone is watching or not.

Is that right? :whistle:

Apart from that, nice post tommy … you’re very philosophical today. Ever read Ursula LeGuin? Her stories are angsty explorations of stuff like that.

how about women! Women who withhold sex as a power trip to gain material things or control the other person. Heck, I’m not saying you should be subservient and just lie there anytime your SO wants some; that’s wrong too. That said, if your sex drive is severely mismatched, then both of you are probably going down the wrong path, and someone is going to be unhappy and do something “bad”. This is not to condone bad behaviour, because I know some guys are indeed dogs through and through.

Lili’s posts just seem a tad negative/jaded. I think there’s a lot of great guys out there just as there are a lot of bad guys out there. dozens, nay thousands of philandering husbands does not condemn the entire male race. maybe it’s time for some self-introspection. What if the woman in that relationship were partly to blame? what if it’s collective blame? I know plenty of failed marriages, and in almost all cases, it seemed like both parties contributed to the bad marriage.

I believe the whole concept of love, honesty, marriage is crooked! Someone should re-write and publicise through all religious outlets :P. You would be surprised how many people cheat, caught and refuse to accept that they did something wrong :notworthy:

Most of us have a fair amount of life experience but have enough sense not to talk about the details of our private lives on an online thread. People don’t know you but a lot of us know each other and our partners, etc.

[quote=“Jack Burton”]how about women! Women who withhold sex as a power trip to gain material things or control the other person. Heck, I’m not saying you should be subservient and just lie there anytime your SO wants some; that’s wrong too. That said, if your sex drive is severely mismatched, then both of you are probably going down the wrong path, and someone is going to be unhappy and do something “bad”. This is not to condone bad behaviour, because I know some guys are indeed dogs through and through.

Lili’s posts just seem a tad negative/jaded. I think there’s a lot of great guys out there just as there are a lot of bad guys out there. dozens, nay thousands of philandering husbands does not condemn the entire male race. maybe it’s time for some self-introspection. What if the woman in that relationship were partly to blame? what if it’s collective blame? I know plenty of failed marriages, and in almost all cases, it seemed like both parties contributed to the bad marriage.[/quote]

I agree that there are women who use sex like you say. I conjecture that these are women with piss poor, selfish lovers. If the sex is hot, she’s not going to turn it down. If it feels like a chore and she can get more pleasure out of what she can get for it, then it’s really just shopping.

But sometimes a woman really IS too damn tired for sex, even when it’s hot.

Before divorcing, my ex and I tried a counselor. We had a young baby, I stayed home with him, and my ex worked. He’d come home, screw around on the computer until I put food in front of him, and then go to bed. He’d say he was tired, but for me to wake his lousy ass up for sex when I went to bed. Then he’d get upset with me when I, of course, didn’t wake him up. Hell, he’s lucky I didn’t run a spike through is chest!

So the counselor advised me not to tell him how much work I was doing, but just to stop doing it. Let the house go to hell, let him have no dinner fixed for him in the evening, let him not have clean laundry to wear to work. Just take care of my son. And I did. And do you know how that worked out? Do you think he looked around and wondered at how much needed to be done and thought, “Wow, I guess she’s really tired, doing all that and taking care of the baby, too. Maybe if I help out some, she’ll have more energy to spend with me.” Of course not! I just looked like a lazy, fridged cow with a messy house!

Mind you, my ex was a class A asshole and marrying him was just stupid. But that’s not my point. Men sometimes don’t understand/pay attention to all the stuff a woman has going on. Sometimes she’s in need of some sleep.

And then again, even if the sex is hot enough, it can get pretty routine after a while. Put in a little more effort to make your lady remember why she used to be so excited to see you and I have no doubt you’d be amazed at the rewards!

HUMANS! Haven’t dealt with men but I can tell you my story with women are pretty similiar.

Most of us have a fair amount of life experience but have enough sense not to talk about the details of our private lives on an online thread. People don’t know you but a lot of us know each other and our partners, etc.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter for me. Noone that I know knows this forum exists. And if they did, that’s one hell of a coincidence… I don’t think I’d care much anyway- but that’s besides the point.
I could understand if someone has people on the forum that they don’t want [strike]anything[/strike] certain things divulged to.
I just find it way easier to be matter-of-fact and just “Hey, this is what I experienced. This is what I’ve learned.”

[quote=“housecat”]
So the counselor advised me not to tell him how much work I was doing, but just to stop doing it. Let the house go to hell, let him have no dinner fixed for him in the evening, let him not have clean laundry to wear to work. Just take care of my son. And I did. And do you know how that worked out? Do you think he looked around and wondered at how much needed to be done and thought, “Wow, I guess she’s really tired, doing all that and taking care of the baby, too. Maybe if I help out some, she’ll have more energy to spend with me.” Of course not! I just looked like a lazy, fridged cow with a messy house!

Mind you, my ex was a class A asshole and marrying him was just stupid. But that’s not my point. Men sometimes don’t understand/pay attention to all the stuff a woman has going on. Sometimes she’s in need of some sleep.

And then again, even if the sex is hot enough, it can get pretty routine after a while. Put in a little more effort to make your lady remember why she used to be so excited to see you and I have no doubt you’d be amazed at the rewards![/quote]
Hmm… sounds like you and I believe divea(?) should have a conversation on how to find men that appreciate housework.
Let me go search for the post I’m referring to…

Edit://
Yes, it was divea: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=101011&start=10

Most of us have a fair amount of life experience but have enough sense not to talk about the details of our private lives on an online thread. People don’t know you but a lot of us know each other and our partners, etc.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter for me. Noone that I know knows this forum exists. And if they did, that’s one hell of a coincidence… I don’t think I’d care much anyway- but that’s besides the point.
I could understand if someone has people on the forum that they don’t want [strike]anything[/strike] certain things divulged to.
I just find it way easier to be matter-of-fact and just “Hey, this is what I experienced. This is what I’ve learned.”[/quote]

Fair enough. I’m not going to say more then as I never share personal matters online which means I don’t have much to contribute but opinions.