Mexican Drug Wars Violence

[Fortigurn]

@Askr

Furthermore, if current drugs were made under license in govt approved labs the end result would be the ability to dose accurately with less impurities.

How would this stop the black market?

All drugs in portugal were decriminalised 10 years ago. Results are very encouraging.

Looks like a pretty mixed bag of results.

With respect to DB, I’m still not sure how the demand for heroin by North Americans forces Mexicans to buy expensive guns and kill each other.

@Dragonbones

US demand for drugs WILL be filled, by SOMEONE. If they are illegal (and thus lucrative), the suppliers will inevitably be violent drug cartels.

Would they be less lucrative if they were legal?

Many Mexican officials who have tried to fight the problem have been murdered.

Why haven’t the drug cartels chosen to use legal means of protest, such as respectfully lobbying their government for legislative change? There are massive industries in the US with vast amounts of power and huge interests in colossal amounts of money, yet they typically lobby or pressure government officials instead of shooting and car bombing them (at least, most of the time). Generally speaking it seems to work, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t work in Mexico.

In the end, the American demand for illegal drugs is the real source of the problem of violence. The demand has to be curtailed, or aerial and naval interdiction scaled back so as to allow diversity of supply and less violent competition for supply through a limited geographic area, or the drugs have to be legalized, again limiting the violent competition in a different way.

I’d like to see a clear chain of causality drawn between the US legalizing drugs and Mexicans not killing Mexicans.

[Dragonbones]

[quote=“Fortigurn”]With respect to DB, I’m still not sure how the demand for heroin by North Americans forces Mexicans to buy expensive guns and kill each other.
[/quote]

Did someone make that argument? My Mexican family and I certainly have not felt under such pressure.

[Askr]

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]
Only 1% of people successfully get off of heroin, and you want to decriminalize it?
(or are you just talking about cannabis?)[/quote]

Well for starters i would give free heroin to all addicts who took part in a structured program. I guarantee no addict given a measured dose of pure heroin would die from the injection. It’s the changing purity level that kills.
When people aren’t pre occupied with the next hit they can at least attempt to get their lives on track.
Clean needles and safe dosage will prevent or reduce health and social problems such as hepatitis, prostitution, and robbery.

In fact such trials are already being tried in Switzerland, UK, and Canada.

Swiss drug addicts given free heroin
abc.net.au/news/2009-12-19/s … in/1184806

Hardened addicts given free heroin in secret NHS trial
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u … 646418.ece

Vancouver Tries Free Heroin Program
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150076,00.html

VANCOUVER, British Columbia — Just over the United States northwest border, addicts will soon be able to get their fix from the Canadian government in the form of free heroin (search) administered by nurses and doctors on the taxpayer’s dime.

What is your source for your statement below?

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]
Only 1% of people successfully get off of heroin[/quote]

[Askr]

@Fortigurn

How would this stop the black market?

Is there a significant black market in alcohol in any western country? Answer: no
Is there a black market for marijuana within the borders of The Netherlands? Answer: no

If drugs of a known purity were legal and readily available why would a black market exist for them.

At the end of 2011 only dutch citizens will be able to gain membership to marijuana ‘coffee’ shops.
Chances are a significant black market will develop to cater to the drug tourists who will no longer have access.

Would drug tourists flock to the Netherlands if the drug laws were the same in the rest of europe? Answer: no

[Fortigurn]

@Dragonbones

Did someone make that argument? My Mexican family and I certainly have not felt under such pressure.

I think you know what I meant, but let me rephrase it just in case. I’m still not sure how the demand for heroin by North Americans forces Mexican drug cartels to buy expensive guns and kill each other.

[quote=“Askr”]Is there a significant black market in alcohol in any western country? Answer: no
Is there a black market for marijuana within the borders of The Netherlands? Answer: no

If drugs of a known purity were legal and readily available why would a black market exist for them.[/quote]

A black market will always exist where there’s sufficient demand and a product can be sold cheaper. Heroin of good quality is available in the US, so why do so many people put up with rubbish? Because it’s cheaper. It would be nice if some effort was made to treat the cause of the drug issue, rather than simply sticking bandaid after bandaid on it.

[Askr]

@Fortigurn

Heroin of good quality is available in the US, so why do so many people put up with rubbish? Because it’s cheaper.

Huh…!?..where is this good quality heroin you speak of? Is it available 24/7 in convenient location? No, of course it isn’t.

Why do people put up with ‘the rubbish’? Are you for real!!!
Most people put up with the rubbish because they are addicted and have trouble holding down a job and keeping their life together while feeding their addiction which is expensive.

Most overdoses occur from the changing purity levels. It doesn’t matter if the heroin is weak as an addict will just use more for an equivalent high. If the average quality of street heroin then increases the addict has no way of knowing and then ODs. A drug addict is some ones son or daughter - never forget that.

A large majority of people would pay more for drugs if they could be positive that it was 100% pure. A lot of recreational drug users are middle to upper class with high incomes and don’t mind paying more for the ‘best stuff’.

Known purity = safer drug use.

@Fortigurn

It would be nice if some effort was made to treat the cause of the drug issue, rather than simply sticking bandaid after bandaid on it.

Cause of drug issue?

The cause of the drug issue is…people fucking love taking drugs and getting high. :discodance: :discodance: :lick: :roflmao:
Every weekend millions of people take drugs, have fun, and go to work monday and do their job.

Adults and children get told everyday that “drugs are bad mmmkay” and you know what they see when the look around? They look around and they see thousands of people having fun on drugs and suffering little more than the equivalent of an alcohol hangover.

You cannot cure the drug issue. People will ALWAYS take drugs. Prohibition does not work. The war on drugs will never be won.

As a result of drug impurity, lack of education, and criminalisation your son or daughter may die, go to prison, or suffer serious health problems.

Yes, reliance on drugs is not good. Jook at the legal abuse of alcohol in our society.

The main goal is truthful education and rehabilitation without throwing people in prison.

No drug is 100% safe. Alcohol has risks. Headache tablets have risks. Cocaine is not safe.

Educate people so they can make an informed decision.
Just don’t tell them ‘Drugs are bad mmkay’ because they won’t listen.

[Dragonbones]

@Fortigurn

I think you know what I meant, but let me rephrase it just in case. I’m still not sure how the demand for heroin by North Americans forces Mexican drug cartels to buy expensive guns and kill each other.

I was going to say that OF COURSE nobody forces people to commit criminal activities, but I’ve read reports that some of the people involved are being forced into it. That aside, nobody is making the argument that demand for heroin by North Americans “forces Mexican drug cartels to buy expensive guns and kill each other”, so I don’t really need to further address the question.

[Fortigurn]

@Askr

Huh…!?..where is this good quality heroin you speak of? Is it available 24/7 in convenient location? No, of course it isn’t.

Of course it isn’t, but that’s not why most people don’t buy it. They don’t buy it because they can’t afford it.

[quote]Why do people put up with ‘the rubbish’? Are you for real!!!
Most people put up with the rubbish because they are addicted and have trouble holding down a job and keeping their life together while feeding their addiction which is expensive.[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote]Most overdoses occur from the changing purity levels. It doesn’t matter if the heroin is weak as an addict will just use more for an equivalent high. If the average quality of street heroin then increases the addict has no way of knowing and then ODs. A drug addict is some ones son or daughter - never forget that.

A large majority of people would pay more for drugs if they could be positive that it was 100% pure. A lot of recreational drug users are middle to upper class with high incomes and don’t mind paying more for the ‘best stuff’.

Known purity = safer drug use.[/quote]

None of this is under dispute, though I’d be interested in understanding how purer herion prevents vein collapse.

[quote]Cause of drug issue?

The cause of the drug issue is…people fucking love taking drugs and getting high. [/quote]

That’s an extremely simplistic and narrow minded view of why people take drugs, which excludes a significant percentage of drug users.

Adults and children get told everyday that “drugs are bad mmmkay” and you know what they see when the look around? They look around and they see thousands of people having fun on drugs and suffering little more than the equivalent of an alcohol hangover.

Do they really?

You cannot cure the drug issue. People will ALWAYS take drugs.

It would be more constructive to institutionalize the people and identify the cause of their pathology.

Prohibition does not work. The war on drugs will never be won.

In its current form, certainly not. The rest of what you wrote is what I learned when I was about twelve, from school and my parents.

@Dragonbones

I was going to say that OF COURSE nobody forces people to commit criminal activities, but I’ve read reports that some of the people involved are being forced into it. That aside, nobody is making the argument that demand for heroin by North Americans “forces Mexican drug cartels to buy expensive guns and kill each other”, so I don’t really need to further address the question.

If no one is forcing Mexican drug cartels to do this, then why are they doing it? Why haven’t the drug cartels chosen to use legal means of protest, such as respectfully lobbying their government for legislative change? I’d like to see a clear chain of causality drawn between the US legalizing drugs and drug cartels not killing Mexicans.

[Gao_Bohan]

Fortigurn,

I think the American experience of Prohibition is informative here. When alcohol was banned, the supply was severely restricted, and the price rose dramatically. Because alcohol can be produced very cheaply, profits were astronomical. But, it was a legally and physically risky business, which attracted criminals to enter the supply side of the market. They weren’t interested in lobbying the government peacefully. Gangs and expansive crime syndicates flourished and routinely fought federal agents in bloody gunfights. Prosecutors, judges, and jurors were captured and murdered.

Of course, the government had intermittent successes too. They seized shipments, destroyed production facilities, and captured or killed the suppliers. The result was yet further squeezing of the available supply, further driving up prices and profits, attracting yet more new entrants to the market. And it wasn’t the criminals running alcohol from Mexico and Canada that lobbied the government to end Prohibition. They’re not the lobbying types, for one, and two, they weren’t interested in giving up their massive profits. Prohibition was unpopular from the beginning, and companies that participated in the legitimate alcohol market, and the cities they supported with their taxes dollars, lobbied heavily for repeal of the 18th Amendment. Now, the black market has virtually disappeared. Some people illegally make their own alcohol, but usually they just drink it themselves or with friends. It’s no longer a profitable business, when cheap alcohol meeting government safety standards is widely available.

The drug situation in North America appears strongly analogous to Prohibition. In Mexico, there are massive profits in the black market, gangs and mob syndicates are in constant war with federal agents, judges are kidnapped and murdered, etc. And the economics are the same. The difference is that there has never been a legitimate industry for drugs, nor popular support. There’s no significant voting base or special interest groups in any North American country willing to champion legalization.

By the way, I’m not advocating legalization. As you said, the results in Portugal have been very mixed. It’s apparent from the link that demand and addiction levels have risen. But, the black market and associated levels of violence are the inevitable by-product of government efforts to control substances.

[Impaler]

@Gao Bohan

Some people illegally make their own alcohol,

Making your own beer and wine is legal in the U.S. As far as moonshine, I’ve only seen it twice, once at a big Halloween party when someone drove in from indiana with a quart of it for the host, and once at a restaurant whose owner gave samples to his regular customers.

[Gao_Bohan]

@Impaler

As far as moonshine, I’ve only seen it twice

That’s my point. The black market for alcohol effectively ended when Prohibition was lifted, and so did the violence. It is likely the same would occur were drugs to be decriminalized, though demand and addiction rates would rise significantly (if Portugal is anything to go by).