Mexican/Latino separatism in the United States?

Politics International Politics
1

How do Americans, Europeans, and Asians perceive this issue?

With the quickly growing number of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico and Latin America in the southwestern United States, could a meaningful separatist movement ever take hold? In California and Texas, Latinos are projected to be the largest segment of the population by the year 2025. There are already more Hispanics/Latinos than whites in New Mexico.

Will this demographic trend different from previous immigration waves due to the close cultural/social ties that are maintained between these immigrants and their “home” countries?

If such a separatist movement develops, how would the United States respond?

liveleak.com/view?i=733_1180976334

2

Well, the last time that States wanted to leave the Union, it didn’t turn out too well.

3

One more video:
youtube.com/watch?v=GIW-BZ8oLrk

jdsmith,

In terms of the Civil War, the price that Americans paid in terms of lives lost was incredibly high. Would Americans be willing to pay the same price today if a majority of California/New Mexico/Texas/Arizona exercise the democratic ideals espoused by Washington, and declared independence via public/open vote?

4

[quote=“cctang”]One more video:
youtube.com/watch?v=GIW-BZ8oLrk

jdsmith,

In terms of the Civil War, the price that Americans paid in terms of lives lost was incredibly high. Would Americans be willing to pay the same price today if a majority of California/New Mexico/Texas/Arizona exercise the democratic ideals espoused by Washington, and declared independence via public/open vote?[/quote]
I doubt it would/could ever happen, but my answer would be no, they wouldn’t.

5

I don’t think there’s any consensus among Latinos, whites, or any other large demographic groups on this issue. Although certain smaller groups get a lot of press for these kind of “take back the southwest” views, they are still a small segment of the overall Latino population. The larger efforts are generally more focused on immigration status, rights/abuses of undocumented immigrants, and other general issues connected with the Latino-AMERICAN community. A lot of these people have left really bad circumstances in Mexico or other parts of Latin America and are actually quite appreciative of the economic opportunity the U.S. offers (or even if they don’t exactly appreciate it, they certainly are willing to take advantage of it).

6

Agreed. Most Latinos are so tightly integrated into the US that any kind of political secession movement is unlikely to ever gain consensus.

During the Texas Revolution hundreds of ethnic Mexicans fought Santa Anna alongside the white settlers (who were also Mexican citizens according to the 1824 Constitution of Mexico). After the revolution many became Texas Rangers. A few held political office in the Texas government.

There has never been the kind of racial tension between Mexican and whites that existed with blacks and whites. I don’t foresee a secession movement or a second civil war.

7

You make a distinction between Mexicans and ‘whites’. Why? Granted there are many indigenous Indians in Mexico but are you saying that the non-Indian Mexican is not Caucasian? Spaniards and Italians are Caucasian though Latin but Latin is not a distict ‘ethnicity’. I know quite a few Mexicans who are most definitely white/Caucasian.

The descriptive terms used to distinguish between Mexicans and non-Mexicans in the previous posts smacks of white superiority, though it may have been done inadvertently.

BroonAryan

8

[quote=“BroonAle”]You make a distinction between Mexicans and ‘whites’. Why? Granted there are many indigenous Indians in Mexico but are you saying that the non-Indian Mexican is not Caucasian? Spaniards and Italians are Caucasian though Latin but Latin is not a distict ‘ethnicity’. I know quite a few Mexicans who are most definitely white/Caucasian.

The descriptive terms used to distinguish between Mexicans and non-Mexicans in the previous posts smacks of white superiority, though it may have been done inadvertently.

BroonAryan[/quote]

How could it be white superiority if Mexicans are as white as well, all other whites?

There are plenty of fair-skinned Mexicans, and plenty of dark-skinned whites, but I had to make some kind of distinction to discuss interracial relations. Would it make you happier if I said, “descendants of Olmec, Toltec, Aztec, Mayan and other indigeneous peoples as well as Spanish whose primary language is Spanish and constitute mestizo or Hispanic culture” and “descendants of Europeans whose primary language is English and constitute the majority American culture” instead?

9

Yes.

But you chose to refer to ‘whites’ as distinct from Mexicans. Amercans are distinct from Mexicans. Blacks from whites but comparing an ethnicity to a nationality is ill thought out in an 'us (the good whities) and them (the dumb Mexicans because they aren’t as white as me) kind of way.

BroonAztec

10

I’m sure gao_bo_han didn’t mean anything negative by it, but BroonAle is correct; a ‘white’ versus ‘Mexican’ contrast is inaccurate wording, since a large number of Mexicans are quite pale of skin and many are of pure or nearly pure Spanish and other European ancestry, such as me. Perhaps we could try ‘non-Hispanic whites’ versus ‘Hispanic whites’, or just ‘Hispanics’ if you want to lump in the various darker shades of skin with that. :wink:

11

Only by virtue of being White and not French.

BroonAryan

12

In Broon Ale’s case, any superiority by virtue of being White would be null and void and he would be a perfect case of the dumb and not as good as us part of the equation.

FredOpines

13

[quote=“fred smith”]In Broon Ale’s case, any superiority by virtue of being White would be null and void and he would be a perfect case of the dumb and not as good as us part of the equation.

FredOpines[/quote]

Shouldn’t you be wiping the bird shit off your Tangoista memorial to failed conquest in the Falklands. Good practice for you and your future foreign failures.

May the Penguins cover you in guano and poop on your poncho you Patagonian ponce.

BroonArgentina

14

I’ll choose to believe you’re just making a bad joke, rather than you really ascribing racist intentions to my utterly non-racist words.

15

Thank you.

Fair enough.

16

I should point out that I posted the thread not to gather opinions on the current status of Latino/Hispanic separatism… certainly, there’s no such meaningful movement at this point in time. I wanted to engage in a hypothetical discussion about current trends, and what it potentially implies.

I won’t bother with the hysterics of so-called border “watch-groups” that deserve the label of being anti-immigrant. This modern versions of the US militia movement is on the fringe and exaggerates the position + power of potential separatists.

So, let’s turn to what Hispanics/Chicanos say about themselves. Some of you may not be familiar with MEChA, an organization that’s growing quickly in just about every university/college in the Western US. Here’s how their site describes themselves:

nationalmecha.org/about.html

[quote]Adamant rejection of the label “Mexican-American” meant rejection of the assimilation and accommodationist melting pot ideology that had guided earlier generations of activists. Chicanismo involves a crucial distinction in a political consciousness between a Mexican-American (Hispanic) and a Chicana/o mentality. El Plan de Santa Barbara speaks to such issues of identity politics by asserting:

"The Mexican-American (Hispanic) is a person who lacks respect for his/her cultural and ethnic heritage. Unsure of her/himself, she/he seeks assimilation as a way out of her/his "degraded" social status. Consequently, she/he remains politically ineffective. In contrast, Chicanismo reflects self-respect and pride on one's ethnic and cultural background. Thus, the Chicana/o acts with confidence and with a range of alternatives in the political world. She/he is capable of developing an effective ideology through action" (El Plan de Santa Barbara).[/quote]

Independent of the political discourse… I think there’s a growing conviction by many (most?) Chicanos that they reject the premise they wil eventually assimilate into the United States melting pot. I think there’s a growing conviction by many that they can work in the United States while preserving their language, culture, and national ties. Note the intentional rejection of the -American tag, and insistence on “Chicana/o”.

So… my question is, where will this cultural trend lead? What happens in the western United States culturally when Chicanos become the majority population? There are already increasing number of TV/radio channels that are exclusively Spanish. Will debates for the state governor position of California and Texas eventually be held in Spanish?

And finally… where can this lead politically? I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest there are at least political/separatist under-tones in the MeCHa movement. Note this entry from the above site:

How will non-Chicana/Chicanos (“whites” or otherwise) in the United States respond to a move that eventually redefines California ‘Califaztlán’? Will they care?

17

There’s all kinds of nutty school clubs at college campuses. But I doubt such people represent a majority of Hispanics in the US, and I doubt even most of those people are going to remain fanatics throughout their lives. After they leave the academic bubble and try to get jobs in the real word, I think they’ll find assimilation or at least moderation is inevitable.

There’s two many points of similarity between Hispanic and Anglo-American (is that a nice PC term for you BroonAccuser?) cultures, regardless of the language barrier. Both are predominantly Christian cultures, and that speaks to a world of common values and beliefs. And Hispanics have proven themselves capable of fully integrating into American life while retaining aspects of their culture. I don’t think these middle-class-college-kid-look-at-me-I’m-a-culturalist-psychos are going to find many converts among normal Hispanics who just want to live their lives and not be pestered by rabble rousing pricks.

I spent my evenings and weekends in college tutoring English at a local community college, and I had loads of first generation students from Mexico and other parts of Latin America. And guess what? They wanted to learn English, gain valuable job skills, and integrate into American society. No doubt some of their kids will grow up to join some kind of proto-nationalist Chicano circle jerk club and lament their parents imaginary loss of culture.

Blah.

18

I think that’s a stretch. Different sects of Christians have probably fought more religious wars with each other than the Crusaders fought with the Muslims. The Catholic/Anglican split was a root cause of many of the European wars in the 18th-19th centuries.

Hispanics are overwhelmingly Catholic, while Anglo-Americans are overwhelmingly Protestant. The cultural/religious differences are very substantial.

Well, I guess this is the issue that has to be understood. MeCHa isn’t really a fringe group; it’s a active organization at most college universities. In recent years, MeCHa-organized events have only increased, not declined.

You might be familiar with Cruz Bustamante, elected Lt. Gov. of the State of California. He was a MeCHa member when he was in college, and remains a firm supporter today. Antonio Villaraigosa is the mayor of Los Angeles, and was formerly head of the MeCHa chapter at UCLA. It should be said Villaraigosa later went to the press with a very weak statement that he “renounces” some of the philosophies of MeCHa… following years of very intense pressure by various US groups.

In any case, I don’t think you can seriously reject MeCHa as a fringe organization. I think this is a mainstream organization embraced and supported by the vast majority of American-born Hispanics.

19

I’m trying to imagine what it would take to push the majority of Latinos “over the edge” so to speak, to the point where they would seriously consider secession as an option, and it seems pretty unlikely. Granted historically there have been various scenarios where seemingly minor events have been the spark that set off a revolution (some might even point to the American Revolution as an example), but I don’t see it happening here. As Gao pointed out, the desire to integrate and succeed as an American is extremely strong, and it seems like it would take something catostrophic to overcome that.

20

People like CCTang have no real understanding of American culture.