I think everyone got really off the track after the original post.
Studying Chinese is a long, long rollercoaster ride that can really test one’s ability to persevere. The original poster is absolutely correct is saying that you will be laughed at, mocked, and misunderstood by Chinese people when you speak Chinese, and, the better your Chinese gets, the clearer you become about these situations. The racism can either stifle you, or you can overcome it and attain your original goal of becoming a Chinese speaker.
How to persevere? Well, everyone probably has their own way of overcoming obstacles, but all I have to say is DON’T GIVE UP. No matter what happens, if you really love studying Chinese, and love Taiwan, don’t give up…yes, you will confront a lot of racism…but you can also enlighten a lot of people if your Chinese becomes good enough to defy racism. Just don’t stop!
As far as all this judging the male foreign teachers (seems like a popular pastime for a lot of bored people!)well, I’m a male foreign teacher, and I don’t think any group should be blanketed under one description. I won’t do that here, and I hope other people won’t either. There are quality and non-quality people in all countries, professions, and places. Personally, I was a “successful” “office worker type” in Manhattan, NYC and hated it. I gave it all up for a life of studying Chinese and soaking in Chinese culture, all supported by English teaching, which I take so seriously, my company recently asked me to author their books…so see, you can’t judge anyone when you just see them walking down the street in Taipei…well, actually, you can, but you’re painting yourself into a corner and making your world smaller.
Its really stange to see this discussion of foreigner making there luck in Taiwan. I am a foreigner ( Asian Foreigner ) and have a taiwanees girl friend with who I will be getting married soon. Now what am I doing in Taiwan? Making my luck ? no no not at all. Well I can make 4 times in Australia of whom I am resident. And am I not educated. No No, thats not the case, I am MBA. Cant I find a girl another then Taiwanees, why not, sure but its heart thats in love so cant help it. Do I think that taiwanees are racist in there approach? Well, yah stop any worker from south east asia and ask what treatment they got from there taiwanees masters, it will remind us of the time when african people were taken to america as slaves.
But on the contrary ,many,Taiwanees are very friendly and i always had great time with my future in-laws and all my taiwanees friends. And by the by all the foreigner in my friend circle are working for some big multinational and big taiwanes company and contributing a lot in developing there business in overseas market.
So Dear taiwanees fellows, dont mind it but before criticizing/insulting foreigners in Taiwan give it a thaught that who is saving you, your economy , your security from any possible danger from your own (blood) china? On who’s support your country developed so strong, economically? Well the answers are definitely some foreigner, isn’t it.
Think before you type any insult to a community that considers itself as your good friend, dont make them hate you.
I guess what some of our local friends trying to say is that of English Teachers who aren’t qualified to be one. I mean, spkeiang the language doesn’t give you the ability to teach the language professionally. There are certain pedagogy and teaching methods to follow, and there are lots of courses in order to get your teaching certificate.
I know several English Teachers, from both genders, and unfortunately, none of them has any Teaching Qualification (such as TESL:Teaching English as a Second Language or TEFL:Teaching English as a Foreign Language) standard whatsoever. They come here either to study Chinese (most of the them) or to participate in a kind of study-exchange program (whatever).
I am NOT stereotyping that all English Teachers are not qualified to teach, but I know for sure that some of them aren’t. In most of English Course Institutions (buxiban), your passport seems to be your credential only second to your complexion (no offense).
To all dedicated and qualified English teachers, you have my full 100% support!
To put myself in the foreign teacher’s shoes, I believe many people (including Taiwanese) would like to have an extra income while abroad, especially when they’re abroad to study (expenses vs income). But one should consider whether he/she is qualified for the job he/she assumes. Being a DJ is also a decent job, right? (Note: DJ = kitchen hands, lol!).
A short note to the last poster (unonano), I guess you must be a very dedicated person. Maybe you should consider applying for a Taiwanese Citizenship, as you mentioned sth about marrying a local girl. It would be nice though to see a foreigner serving in the military service if at all required.
However, please keep your opinion about how ppl from SE Asia think of their masters to yourself, before actually conducting a thorough research on this issue.
Good luck!
thats the issue and that of the attitude. Now we all know that many people , due to their passport sneek inside and try to teach . Accepted. then why not make a rule to control these enteries , after all its your taiwanees government thats issues the visa’s and arc. and thanks for your suggestions for becoming a taiwanees citizen . For me its not an option. I love my country and will go back there ofcourse with your local girl.
Ok , no need for research for atrocities done on east asians labor in taiwan. I got around 50 working in the production floor of my company and know many other through church. Its a common voice buddy. Just treat them well with dignity. Most of them are very well educated and the only reason why they are here is of bad economic situation in there country.
What’s the big deal about whether you’re qualified or not. I think most TEFL, ESL whatever courses are worth **** . They’re usually just done as money-tickets. That’s why they cost so much. Money making schemes and nothing more. The only qualifications I respect are real qualified teachers.
What really counts is experience. I never did an ESL because I couldn’t afford it, but I know a lot about education, I like kids and I’ve got two years experience teaching. Put that up against soemone who’s jsut done a month in an ESL course in their home country beofre coming over to Taiwan to earn some bucks.
one has certain period of teaching experience. However, there should be a starting point, right? I surely hope Taiwan is not the place to do this experiment in order to get the so-called “teaching experience”. I feel pity for those “guinea pigs”…
One can also claim he/she’s got experience abroad (like the buxiban will check).
Experience is important to a point when it supports your academic qualification. You cannot say that you’re qualified as a teacher only after teaching for a period of time.
There is nothing wrong with getting those TEFL/TESL, as at least you’ll know the standard as for: good teacher, good student, good teaching material, good teaching programs and evaluation, etc. If you don’t like this TEFL/TESL course (btw it takes at least 6 months, from what I’ve heard), go get a special degree in teaching then.
Last thing:
How do you rate the following:
Qualified Teacher
Good Student (or even whether they’re basic, intermediate, advance, etc.)
What’s your standard of judging these things?
To Unonano, 50 people (in your company) is not a good sampling in a normal distribution as:
They work in the same company
Not all 50 people have the same attitude towards their master
there are tens of thousands foreign labors in Taiwan, and each of them has his/her own unique characters.
When you stereotype local people being to harsh on those foreign labors, you should ask yourself and see for yourself where the real problem lies. Do you think those Lao Bans wouldn’t do the same thing to their fellow Taiwanese labors? Now we are talking about standardization again, right? Well, get the messages from both sides, and you’ll get the enlightenment.
It’s great that you are attempting to learn Chinese, after all, when you see Asians in America, you expect them to be able to speak English. But I think you need to chill out a bit when people laugh at your Chinese speaking ablilty. Have you ever thought that maybe it’s because they find it cute and endearing? Obviously it’s not a common sight here in Taiwan as opposed to in America where you have people of all races speaking English. People laugh because they are nervous, or encounter things they don’t expect, especially girls and young children, so don’t take it personally. They are not laughing at your abiliy to speak Chinese, you have just caught them off guard, or they just think you are really cute when you’re speaking Mandarin Just image you are back in your hometown and you meet a beautiful East Indian lady on the street who seems to be lost. She stops to ask you for directions, but in perfect Mandarin. Although you understand what she is saying, wouldn’t you find it to be just a little amusing? I bet you would have a slight smile on your face I often encounter the laughing myself. I look like I’m Chinese or Japanese to some, however, I have a western accent whenever I speak Mandarin, although I can’t really hear the difference. I know people find it amusing, but I don’t mind, it really doesn’t matter. When I speak English to people in stores or whatever, I know they’re a bit surprised and they smile, not because they are laughing at my English, but because they don’t expect it. I hope that gives you a different point of view.
This is in response to Robaldo’s original post. My 2 bits of advice is to “hang tough”. English continues to be the world’s default language for business, internet, science, hollywood, etc. All Taiwanese are required/encouraged to learn English well if they want to get ahead in life. I think many of us “Westerners” are quite lucky to have English as our first language. It is relatively rare for Taiwanese to be exposed to Westerners learning and speaking Chinese. When they meet one in real life, their first reaction is to laugh. Cannot comprehend? Nervous surprize? Not saying its right, but I am making a small suggestion to be less sensitive about it. I am sure that person secretly wishes s/he could speak English as fluently as you do!
How true. The Taiwanese do not have many foreigners or immigrants so they rarely hear a foreigner speaking Chinese. That’s why they will laugh in your face and drag their friends over to laugh at your accent. It is discouraging but the demographics won’t change anytime soon.
The Taiwanese have a similiar problem when speaking English. They believe you will laugh at them so they will say nothing even after studying the language for years. They would prefer to hear you stutter some crappy Chinese. I don’t have a TV but I once saw a show on TV here that had foreigners singing KTV songs. I don’t know if the show is Taiwanese or not but the audience was laughing itself to death. I ask my students if anyone laughed at them in America when they spoke English. None of them said they were laughed at for poor English.
Let me first talk about the topic. When a local person laughs at your Chinese you should remember that they may not really be laughing at your Chinese. Laughing in Taiwan does not automatically mean that they are laughing at you or laughing that your Chinese stinks. Taiwanese people are generally very friendly, and sometimes they laugh out of embarassment, or complete surprise at how much Chinese you really know, or what words you use. Many they cannot believe you learned such a thing. I have been here for a few years and I have figured this out. I used to think the same thing. I though how rude of they to laugh at my Chinese! But you know, it still happends even though my Chinese is getting better. And yet sometimes I too still feel a little bit upset, but I always have to remind myself of this culture. And you know what else I have found out? Is that students in my class are laughing at others English as well. I discourage it completely, but I cannot always control that. Laughing makes the world go round, so grin and bear it and try not to think too much.
Now I will discuss the other part of this topic that really makes me angry. Mostly in reference to “gfl213” and those of you who agree. It is not true that the girls that date foreigners have a low education and come from broken homes. I myself and many other foreigners I know date really educated, well rounded women in Taiwan. For one reason or another they prefer western men or simply fell in love with one of us. Is that bad? I don’t think so. As far as those foreigners who are here because they couldn’t hack it in there own country, well did you ever stop to think that maybe we simply wanted to try something different? At least for some of us this is true. Ever since I was in high school I wanted to come to Asia to teach and learn Chinese. Finally I got my chance, so I came. I am not saying all foreigners in Taiwan fit this description, but your kind of thinking really makes me mad! That’s just like if I said all Chinese people in the US open a Chinese resturant, cannot speak a word of English and they couldn’t hack it in there own country?! Is this true? I doubt it!
And as far as teaching English in Taiwan is concerned… I learned something a long time ago… Even if I had a Ph.D in education, a TEFL/TESL certificate, or whatever else some people think we should have, it wouldn’t help me in Taiwan to teach English any better than I do now. I have taken such classes before coming to Taiwan. The mehtods are good, but for the most part they don’t work here. At least not for the majority of schools, such as cram schools, which seem to be a dime a dozen here. Formal TEFL/TESL schools and most universities are okay. If the teachers are given power in the classroom they usually work, but not for all students. It doesn’t work because of they way the students were taught before. The methods are different. (But that is a completely different topic) Your learning style and what you expect from a teacher is totally different from that of a western country. The culture and background of people in Taiwan is naturally different. Someone said, “How do you know your students are making progess then?” Well, if you see them everyday, test them, talk with them, you know if they are making progress or not. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. After teaching for awhile you begin to notice patterns among the students and you learn how to help them. It’s just like any job when you first start, it takes time to understand the way things work. So my response to that kind of comment is stop expecting so much and try to accept a different teaching style! Who knows… Maybe you’ll learn something…
You seem to be very defensive about the whole thing. Are you frustrated that someone with no experience or “qualifications” is able to make the same amount of money as you?
I am being defensive/frustrated? The exact word is “disappointed”. I took up an English course here, hoping that I would get better “English”. Being a professional mself, I had the expectation that my teacher would be a professional teacher, too. I was sooooo disappointed when I attended the classes, when I realized that the teacher didn’t have the slightest idea about good teaching method, and all the time we’re only reading articles from the newspaper/magazine, etc. I asked the school to assign new teacher for me, the same thing happened. The school had changed teachers 5 times until I decided to say OK to this teacher.
You were saying about income? Please…, the fact that I’m taking classes means I have enough to spare, at least enough to pay my teacher’s salary…
You were saying about income? Please…, the fact that I’m taking classes means I have enough to spare, at least enough to pay my teacher’s salary…
I don’t think anyone here cares about your income, I think saying this makes you sound pretentious, and will cause people to further take what you say with a grain of salt. Enough to pay my teacher’s salary…oooooooo…are we supposed to think you’re somehow a better person because you’re rich? Or is this why we should feel sympathetic towards you, because you deserve more?
I’d also like to ask you, exactly where are your English skills lacking? I’m American, but I think your English is good enough for you to teach me! What exactly did you want to learn when you signed up for the class, and what did you get, did the school break their promise, or did you misunderstand…or, did you do what a lot of students do, did you talk to the teacher about what he/she was doing that made you unhappy, or did you just go pout to the management about it? If that’s what you did, no wonder you kept getting the same thing over and over…
Also, if you’re so rich and have such specific goals about your English learning, why don’t you study 1 on 1? Sounds like you need special attention.
I apologize for being too emotional and for saying those things, especially related to money matter. To be honest, I was too carried away by what “Keen Observer” had to say regarding income comparison.
Actually, I have always been attending 1 on 1 class, and this way I believe I have been fair whenever I “evaluate” the teachers assigned for me. Since I am willing to pay more (there I go again, but, please don’t take this wrong) I have such high expectation to be taught in a professional way. I know that my English is somehow slightly higher than intermediate, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be better. The school assured me that the teachers are professionals and that they have years of teaching experience. Somehow, I doubt this.
Well, last thing, again I apologize for what I said earlier, and I do hope that you guys (teachers) take this teaching thing seriously, I don’t want to waste my time or my children’s time studying about crap with no clear objectives.
Hi Robaldo,
I guess I am a teacher who takes what I does seriously. I think your apology should be accepted by everyone.
I will agree with you on one thing, it is definitely possible to be ripped-off by a cram school…I mean, there may be a great teacher there, and there may not be, it’s purely luck or if you know there’s a good teacher at that school…well, keep trying.
Keen observer is a native speaker “pretending” to be a student here in Taiwan.
The people who are writing this garbage and knocking EFL/ESL teachers are the same people who have attended ESL classes in Canada, the USA, Australia or New Zealand.
Sorry, but as a pro., I recognize that you are a native speaker. Correct me if I am wrong.
If you’re talking about me (Yes, I was the one writing about TEFL/TESL, “To” Keen Observer, “To” Eye Opener) then you ARE wrong. I am NOT a native speaker. As for me, English is NOT even a second language, instead it’s a FOREIGN language.
I take your comment as a compliment though…my teacher would be very proud. I make sure I’ll print this out and present to my teacher…
I am keen observer. I admit I am a native speaker, so what??? I never said I was Taiwanese. Now “To Keen Observer” is the one who claims to be Taiwanese.
) and have a taiwanees girl friend with who I will be getting married soon. Now what am I doing in Taiwan? Making my luck ? no no not at all. Well I can make 4 times in Australia of whom I am resident. And am I not educated. No No, thats not the case, I am MBA. Cant I find a girl another then Taiwanees, why not, sure but its heart thats in love so cant help it. Do I think that taiwanees are racist in there approach? Well, yah stop any worker from south east asia and ask what treatment they got from there taiwanees masters, it will remind us of the time when african people were taken to america as slaves.