I am married to a Taiwanese national. From discussion here and the new laws passed I am pretty sure that I can work here. I also have an OWP which I got before the new law was passed.
I work as a teacher in a fully legal English buxiban. There’s a guy here from the Ministry of Education. He is aware of the law, but insists that it doesn’t apply seeing as the MOE have their own rules about who can work in buxibans.
Does anyone have any advice, and the number of a good English-speaking lawyer I can contact who could help me with this if I have to (but I don’t want to have to, because I can’t really afford a lawyer).
get a copy of the laws and show it to him. tell 'em to have a read. No doubt there is a delay between the introduction of laws and dissemination to the lower ranks
Also they seem to come up with regulations themselves sometimes, that are created themselves. In my opinion but maybe you should talk to Richard, laws over ride these departmental regulations
Actually on that point and related particularly to foreign spouses in Taiwan, has anybody ever thought about setting up and contributing to a fund for times when legal advise or cases have to be fought that have a direct impact on certain categories of foreign people within the Taiwan community.
This may sound like a not so practical idea but anyway:
Richard H. has on numerous occasions brought up potential challenges that could be handled and potentially won through the courts. However this involves money and sometimes people don’t have it on hand or the challenge just would cost too much.
Lets say members (those who contribute a certain amount per week) can withdraw the money if it has not been used, but would loose the support of the fund. On the other side of it, the members could through consultation/vote on certain justified cases that the money could be used to help, outside that of members’ problems.
Bottom line it would promote the cause of foreigners in Taiwan, and if these cases were successful would improve the situation for some or many, including not just us here who frequent Forumosa but others like Asian workers etc, who sometimes have no voice
Has this been thought of before?
I think fair contributions with enough people could be the price of a beer per month
The thing is he knows about the law, but says that the Ministry of Education still requires that I get a work permit. In other words the law is about as useful as the Constitution of the PRC is to its people.
When I’d finished typing the first message, my boss poked her head out of the door and said no problem, I could go home. I’ll ring her later, but I suspect (form what I overheard) that their solution was that I apply for a work permit now. This might be the best practical course of action, but is a real pain in the arse seeing as the new law was passed just so that people in my position don’t have to do that. Also it wouldn’t cover a second job, or kindergarten teaching.
Looks like I’m legal in theory, but not in practice.
This sort of thing is typical of Taiwan. I guess I am lucky that I haven’t had the same problem. Though I hope that being in Admin puts me outside the constraints of being an English teacher, but the a$$es at the MOE may not agree with that.
I have spoken about this to a PFP Legislator Huang several times. I believe he actually wrote a formal letter to the Ministry of Education for a clarification, but I haven’t heard what the reply was . . . . . . or if a reply has been received to date.
You can contact his office by calling the Legislative Yuan switchboard in Taipei at 2358-5858 and asking for his office.
So the Ministry of Education can negate an Act of the Legislative Yuan ? Not much point in having a legislature then is there ? Just get “elected” to the Ministry of Education.
Well my boss was very supportive, but she’s resigned and is leaving in two weeks, so the down side is that embarking on a battle to try and protect my rights might not be the best thing to do at this stage. The MOE official didn’t officially do anything though, but just indicated that I’d have to resolve it (or something like that). I dont’ really have the stability, time and money for a court battle or whatever, but I thionk I’ll try and see if I can get some mroe documentation and opinions and throw that at the MOE, but in the end probably the likeliest outcome is that I take the path of least resistance and just get one of theior stupid work permits. Wish I was a government department. Then I could just make up my own rules and wouldn’t have to worry about stupid shit like laws.
What might happen if you simply do nothing - in other words, not get a work permit from the MOE? Would the MOE try to have you deprted or something?
I suggest you try to debate this further with this man from the MOE. Tactfully point out that the MOE’s own out-of-date regulations make a mockery of the new law that allows people with JFRV to work without a work permit. Afterall, the new law applies to everyone, including those working in education, right?
Easy for me to sit here and make this suggestion, I know, but I do feel it may be worth trying one more time to talk some sense into this guy.
The MOE has two requirements for non OWP holders: That they hold a passport from one of seven English-speaking countries and that they have at least a BA.
You already have a work permit so there is no need for you to apply for another.
So instead of going through the whole work permit thing, you just satisfy the two requirements.
I don’t see why they cannot issue some sort of document saying you’re cleared to teach based on your OWP and that you’ve satisfied their requirements.
I don’t see why they cannot issue some sort of document saying you’re cleared to teach based on your OWP and that you’ve satisfied their requirements.[/quote]
For the life of me, i can’t figure out their motivation either.
Spack, whoever the guy was Brian referred to he’s just doing his job and probably could care less about it one way or the other. talking to him probably wouldn’t help at all.
the MOE is notoriously toothless when it comes to enforcement. it’s amazing that someone from there came around to your school Brian. in 5 years they haven’t shown their face around ours, except once last spring for a sars-prevention checkup. did they come specifically about your work permit Brian? they could report the school to the police i guess, who would do what? has anyone in this situation been deported? i haven’t heard. if the police don’t take action i don’t think the moe can really do anything to you. of course no school is going to want to be on their bad side unnecessarily.
The MOE guy just came for a routine check. Nothing to do with me. They made a list of minor things that have to be ‘fixed’ by the time they come back. Just two things - one to do with the kitchen etc. They were going to put my work permiot as a third, but my boss managed to persuade him to leave that off while I get my documents toghether or something. But they still said it had to be rectified. It’s just not official (or something).
As I understand it, they want me to get the whole work pemit. Health check, copy of my degree (like I could find that again!) etc. Even if they just wanted me to prove that I had a degree and a passport from an English speaking country, that would still be agianst the law. The effect of the law (as I understand it) is to grant foreigners married to Taiwanese, exactly the same work rights as Taiwanese. Therefore, I should have to fullfil exactly the same conditions as a Taiwanese teacher at a buxiban has to. I don’t know whathose are, but it sure doesn’t include a health check and a passport from an English speaking country.
(I edited the title of this post, because it’s not really an emergency anymore and this will be better for peoplebrowsing for info in the future).
The MOE guy is a routine checker, he could just say that he knows about the law but in reality knows absolutely nothing, well, that could be the case. I wouldn’t jump through their hoops and would probably pretend to be a friend passing through if they should ever arrive. “Me… Teach…NO… I am just visiting… My picture is on the wall you say, hmmm, we all look alike right!”
The guy is just covering his arse. I’d ignore him. He’s telling you to get a work permit because he doesn’t understand the law and is afraid that he might get in trouble for not trotting out the work permit mantra. If what he said is true, then the new regulations relating to JFRVs are meaningless.
[quote]The guy is just covering his arse. I’d ignore him. He’s telling you to get a work permit because he doesn’t understand the law and is afraid that he might get in trouble for not trotting out the work permit mantra. If what he said is true, then the new regulations relating to JFRVs are meaningless.
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I don’t think so. From what he said, and from what Bassman has said about MOE policy in Taizong, it seems that the MOE is fully aware of the law and have deliberately chosen to ignore it or decide that it doesn’t apply to them. My guess is that they’re miffed that the law takes away their control of some of the foreign teahcers, and they don’t want to relinquish this control. Fotunately for them, most foreigners in this situation are just working on what people tell them about the law and when a MOE official ‘lays down the law’ to them, they’ll believe him.
Would anyone with sufficient Chinese skills be able to help me with this? I would be very grateful to someone for writing a letter to the CLA asking for clarification, and specifically if foreign spouses need to have work permits to work in buxibans or not. I’d also probably need someone to help me contact that legislator Hartzell mentioned and ask if I could have a copy of the letter that he sent to the MOE. And if anyone else can think of any other documentation related to this that I could arm myself with, that would also be useful.
I think making a stink over it would be a big mistake, Taiwanese will probably stick together on this and who knows it could lead to an amendment being made in the law. It wouldn’t be the first time surely?
The best approach, I feel, would be to ask questions to the right people in a non-demanding way and hope that reason prevails (a big ask in Taiwan I know). As the Taiwanese would say is “Give the man a ladder and let him come down”. Let the MOE keep face, they feel more important than you so let them keep their idea and present a way for them to give you what you need and still keep face. This way has always worked for me in any negotiations in Taiwan, hmmmmm… except for the DMV… damn it.
Prepare documentation from legislators but present it in a respectful way. Try to get to the highest ranking person in the MOE that you can get to first, don’t waste time with the low level boys who will want to save face with a simple “no” and not want to ask questions to their boss who they feel may say “this is such a simple matter, you should know the answer, why are you bothering me with this?”. Their boss will then try to cover his own ass too.
