More "Heavy" Motorcycles on Freeways BS

Life Cars & Motorcycles
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http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2018/02/28/2003688412

After monitoring current usage the conclusions were;

"Illegal acts encompass frequently swerving in and out of traffic, overtaking other vehicles or changing lanes without following proper procedures, riding alongside other vehicles in the same lane, riding on freeway shoulders, failing to follow traffic signs or signals, and failing to keep a safe distance from other vehicles."

Sounds like typical driver behavior here for all vehicles! Perhaps they should run another study of car drivers and compare, given their conclusions on motorcycles the final solution would be to close freeways to all traffic!

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Certainly true of car drivers, too… But at 100km/h, the motorcyclists risk doing the worst damage to themselves in almost any accident. Can’t understand why they take such risks at 100km/h. BTW, don’t forget to add speeding, passing on the wrong side, failing to follow road markings/separators, and failing to ride with due caution.

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By the same reasoning, then we would have to ban all drivers and scooters in Taiwan.
There are existing Laws to cover dangerous driving and speeding.
Seems pointless to identify one group .This identifies a problem with driver training , it does not mean that Motorcycles ,themselves, pose a bigger threat to other road users.
A total lack of training and enforcement is what needs to be addressed…Nationwide.
Correlation does not imply causation.

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I agree the term “heavy” is BS. It’s Chinglish translating. A better term would be ‘large displacement’ or similar.

As for the rest, the Chinese know themselves. They know that allowing this class of vehicle would cause more danger and fatalities than are already existent on the freeways. They probably predicted the outcome of the study before they even undertook it. They know how local riders would behave. Yes, yes, laws and all that. Why not tackle the root of the problem. Western logic from westerners. We get it.

Why don’t I explain this with allegory. There was a Chinese guy who was asked why he didn’t replace the broken bugscreen on his door. He replied that if he repaired that, then he’d have to repair the door. If he did that, then he’d have to paint the exterior. If he did that, then he’d have to paint the interior. If he did that, then he’d have to replace the broken fixtures. If he did that…

You don’t change one thing in this culture without changing everything. Alas, 沒辦法… think about it…

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There is no logical reason as to why high performance motorcycles shouldn’t be allowed on freeways. Like with many laws it’s purely for historical reasons. Once something isn’t allowed it follows that nobody wants to make it allowed, because when allowed if somebody dies then the person who made the change is to blame.

If anyone wants to ban two wheelers, then logically four wheelers should also be banned. We could all drive (ride?) Robin Reliants.

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That would be worth observing :smile:
image

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Initially I thought it was weird that motorcycles weren’t on freeways but then again it rains here all the time. Given the atrocious driving I see already I can’t imagine motorcyclists to drive any better on freeways with wet roads at high speeds. In California I hated how fast the (cough) Marines would zip by without following driver safety rules on extremely dry roads. So, I don’t mind that they ban them. All cars have tinted windows, then add in rain and darkness, good luck driving a motorcycle…say your prayers before you do and sign that will.

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If the Lawmakers are genuinely concerned about the "safety " issues , that would be fine.
There are far more lethal practices that should be looked at,

Not "Western " Logic, just logic.
Seems odd to ignore:
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Not sure if you’re aware or not, but your pics actually PROVE my points.

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Who the fuck are these Chinese of whom you speak?

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I think it boils down to the cars provide the most revenue in terms of taxes and they don’t want to piss off voters that might drive expensive cars, that might be “annoyed” with the bikes and potentially affect votes. Safety is a complete non issue, there are still nightly street races along various highways with high end cars all the time, they hammer on the brakes when the GPS alerts them of a speed camera ahead, than continue to race after they pass it.

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Wouldn’t that be bliss. Maybe they could landscape all of them and leave them there as green zones for cities?

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Please don’t get into the facile TI nonsense. Sure, Taiwan is politically defacto independent, but it isn’t populated by ethnic Italians.

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Or many People who identify themselves as “Chinese”, as you keep describing them according to the 2016 Poll.
In a poll dated 2016 about 78% see themselves as Taiwanese only, 20% as both and only 2% see themself as Chinese only.

I love living in Taiwan and although a Permament Resident, accept that I have no “vote”.
Fortunately , at least for now, I am free to express my criticism of silly practices.( Even Winnie the Pooh Memes). I accept many Cultural differences as I am a guest here.
There are many Foreign -born Residents who also have a voice and opinions. Any change will only be driven by voters .
At least you have Democracy…changing the system and lots of re-decorating but worth it maybe?

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Quick. Translate 華人 for me. The polls you refer to are talking about nationality, not ethnicity. They are not the same thing. Locals will alternate between 台灣人 and 華人. When discussing linguistic/cultural issues, it is relevant to say “Chinese.” And, really, I invite you to truly contemplate my main points, rather than go for red herrings.

If you’ve ever taught here, have you ever noticed how chaotic a class can become if not managed with an authoritarian approach? Have you ever noticed how people here seem unable to organize themselves into orderly queues if not explicitly directed to do so (try taking a TRA 出間車 and notice the wall of people jostling to get on before the doors even open)? Ever wondered why road conditions exist like the ones in your pictures? Well, the average local person’s life is dominated from an early age by parents and teachers, and later by bosses, spouses and family. What’s missing from the equation is self-control. People here are so used to being directed that they quite literally go to “7’s and 8’s” when left to their own devices.

So why no large displacement bikes on freeways? THINK about it…

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I only wish I could.
Maybe this allegory can explain it ,

A group of prisoners have been confined in a cavern since birth with their backs to the entrance, unable to turn their heads, and with no knowledge of the outside world. Occasionally, however, people and other things pass by the cave opening, casting shadows and echos onto the wall the captives face.

The prisoners name and classify these illusions, believing they’re perceiving actual entities. Suddently one prisoner is freed and brought outside for the first time. The lights hurt his eyes and he finds the new environment disorienting.When told that the things around him are real, while the shadows were mere reflections, he cannot believe it. The shadows appeared much clearer to him. But gradually, his eyes adjust until he can look at reflections in the water, at objects directly and finally at the Sun, whose light is the ultimate source of everything he has seen.

The prisoner returns to the cave to share his discovery, but he is no longer used to the darkness, and has a hard time seeing the shadows on the wall. The other prisoners think the journey has made him stupid and blind, and violently resist any attempts to free them.

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The difference between my allegory and yours is that mine reflects what a local person would actually tell you (it’s a variant of what I’ve heard over and over throughout the years). It’s an indirect way of relating local culture. Yours has no relevance as a reply to mine whatsoever. Changing driving habits here would require changing a host of other cultural characteristics and attitudes, which are ingrained in local people from when they are small. The one thing that people here do know is themselves. They know that large displacement motorcycles on freeways would not be a good thing. Maybe it would be fine with people like you. However, you are not a local. The majority of people here were not raised in western families with western educations and western notions of autonomy and personal responsibility. Contemplate what those pictures you posted really portray.

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Now I understand your “reasoning”.
Platos allegory was relevant , in that people won’t change if they hold on to the views they are resigned to from past experience , without even considering change for the better that may be viable , simply because it is an outsider viewpoint and not worthy of consideration.
The pictures portray People driving Coaches, whilst drunk for instance.
Your argument that “They won’t change”, makes no sense in that area , as Taiwan has dramatically enforced drink driving Laws recently, which has had a major impact .
If you have been here for a long time, you would see that it has become a no-no to drink and drive now compared to 7/8 years ago.
It takes a long time to change attitudes, yes, but you seem to be polarizing , “not a local”, "Us’ and “Them” and “not western educated” , as a reason for Drivers being so intransigent.
You keep saying “they know bikes would be blah blah”, your arguments seem nothing more than generalisations. Perhaps we just have to leave it as a difference of opinions.

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I’d like to add my two cents to this discussion about allowing large motos on the freeway.

We (in California) allow large motos on freeways. I have even seen scooters (vespas, maybe 250cc? not sure) on the freeway.

At least once a week , often more then once I hear on the radio on my 50 mins drive to and from work about a motorcyclist down on the freeway. And that is just during my less then two hours on the road listening to traffic radio. I am sure there are reports that I don’t hear because I was not listening at the time. Suffice to say motorcycle accidents on our freeways are , sadly, quite common.

And as i drive our freeways I see motorcyclists splitting lanes, which is not illegal. However, it is the manner with which they do this that present a real hazard, mostly to themselves and to others. Most of the “rider down” on the freeway actually resulted from lane splitting and cars not seeing the bikes in time, which also resulted from the bikes travelling at an excessive speed for the traffic conditions.

I rarely see motos on our freeways behaving in a proper manner. What they are supposed to do is ride it like they are a car. Cars are NOT allowed to pass them in the SAME lane. Cars are to treat motos as if they were cars and it is completely forbidden to pass them in the same lane. And in my near 20 years of driving here in California i have never seen a car pass a moto in the SAME lane. So that is not the problem. The problem is that motos are allowed to “lane split” and pass between two cars and therefore create a “new unmarked lane” for themselves. They are supposed to do this with caution. But in FACT, we have SPEEDING, very excessive at times. We have essentially reckless riding on the part of a large part of the moto riding crowd on our freeways.

However, the “good news” here is that overall there is not a huge amount of motos on the freeway. As there likely would be in Taiwan.

I shudder to think if our freeways were congested with motos like it would be in Taiwan, based on all the reckless riding that I see. For sure the behavior of the riders will be hard to change and for sure we will have multitple deaths on a daily basis. We already have several deaths per week, just from what I hear 2 hours a day on traffic radio. This number will go up exponentially if OUR freeways in Calif had a huge number of moto riders.

I do not think Taiwan riders can change their riding behavior (our riders here can’t) enough to make it a safe enough of a proposition for all concerned to have motos in large numbers on Taiwan’s freeways.

Yes and it often rains in North Taiwan, this doesn’t help 4 wheel vehicles and is very dangerous for 2 wheeled.

I see massive carnage should bikes be allowed on Freeways in TAiwan.

YES, there is blatant disregard of rules on normal roads, YES, many people do things that are completely unsafe and in fact insane, YES< kids on bikes without helmets…insane.

If it was up to me. I would NOT allow passengers on scoots at any time. NONE. Only one rider per scoot. Yes that includes dogs. NO more taking your dogs on scoots. It’s not safe and it is distracting to the rider as well.

And I would not as yet allow motos on freeways in Taiwan. Lives will not be saved by allowing this. More lives will surely be lost.

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I hear your argument. However in 2012 Central Government did pass a Law allowing ( restricted ) use on Freeways, which has been ignored by County and Local Government,.That was the reason some Bikers are angry.
I also know that it’s possible to create some safe drivers with training , in every Country, so it’s sad to penalize large bikes because a few will be stupid.
Same goes for Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini drivers in Taiwan. Do we ban all fast cars because they are potentially more dangerous, Tommy?
P.s. I sold my bike .