Morphed thread:BEST PLACE to teach English to BEST WAY!

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

Let me put this in another light using some of your words:

Well, I’m realistic. I don’t have an education in auto repair, and only have a year of actually working on cars, along with a few years of helping out friends here in the U.S. who needed help. So, if I can get US$15 to US$18/hour before taxes and national health insurance premiums are taken out, I will accept that. I certainly can’t get that much money, if any, repairing cars here in the U.S. So, I’m fine with that. Ideally, though, I hope these auto shops will give raises commensurate with experience and number of years at their shop. Anyway, money aside, a chain repair shop does seem like my best bet, based on what I read. Now for that question…What do you all suggest when it comes to chain repair shops that have established proceedures and tools?

I’d be pretty happy to go somewhere and do something that I am not qualified to do for US$18 bucks an hour…

22

Ok, I’m not an auto mechanic and I’m not a trained ESOL instructor. But, then again, they know that. If they thought I had a degree in TESOL, they’d probably be paying more. I understand why you made the anology to auto repair, but there is a difference. I wasn’t born and grew up with the basics of auto repair knowlege. I did learn English in schools, and do have a basic knowlege of English grammar and vocabulary. I know this is far from making me a good English instructor. There is a lot more to being a good teacher than having this basic knowlege. But, as I said, they know that and I know that. And, I am willing to try hard and apply what I do know.

Of course, the alternative is that I and every other native English speaker not teach at all. There will be left far fewer teachers (albeit it highly trained ones), and far fewer opportunities to learn English in a different environment than the one in the junior high, high school, or college classroom. I studied Chinese formally in college for several years. I also was fortunate to have friends from Taiwan who helped me outside the classroom. That experience was much different from the classroom one, and I believe just as valuable. Now, here we don’t pay for it. In Taiwan, they do. I will be happy to do some language exchange there for free. But, if they do pay for me to teach English, and know ahead of time my qualifications, why would I turn it down? This is especially the case since I am considering a grad degree in TESOL, which requires that I have prior experience teaching English as a second language. Where do they expect me to get this experience? No one works for free.

Peter

23

So what exactly constitutes being “qualified” to teach English ? And while we’re at it, what constitutes being “qualified” to do any of the other things foreigners do in Taiwan ?

24

One other thing I thought I’d throw in. A lot of native foreign language speakers do well in the U.S. as foreign language instructors. I had an instructor in college (not on the tenure track) from Taiwan who taught Chinese. He had no formal teaching Chinese as a second language training or in linguistics, yet was working as an instructor in college and earning around $45,000/year. My high school Chinese instructor came from mainland China, and she had no such training either. Now, my college Chinese department was by no means famous (or, I think, even ranked), but it wasn’t that bad. And, the secondary education system in the county where I grew up (Montgomery County in Maryland) was pretty good, as well. So, all I’m saying is that native foreign-language speakers also get jobs in the U.S. teaching their native tongue. The number of jobs open to them is far fewer than in Taiwan, but they earn considerably more teaching their language than we do teaching English in Taiwan.

Peter

25

Peter, I’ve been following this thread since the beginning. You asked a very legitimate question in your post and I think you deserve a straight answer, so here goes.

My husband and I have been teaching at Kojen English Language Schools for the past year. He’s been in the English for Special Purposes Department (ESP) and I have been teaching mostly children at the higher levels and adults sometimes. Kojen has been fair to us. Upon your initial arrival at the school, you will receive a number of training seminars that will bring you up to speed for teaching the various levels of students. You will also have ongoing training available, provided by teacher trainers who are on site at each school. The pay is fair at 530/hr for children and 520/hr for adults. Raises are forthcoming after approximately your first year. In ESP, you must travel to corporate client’s offices and are paid an extremely generous travel allowance which will skyrocket your hourly rate. It’s also non-taxable. Some people don’t like the split shifts and the travelling but my husband loves his work and goes sight-seeing during his time off. Part of it is having a good attitude. I enjoy teaching children and thoroughly enjoy teaching adults, too. The children are cute, innocent and uninhibited. They are so much fun so please don’t overlook doing some children’s teaching. If you get into a branch with a good director, I think you will be very happy there. Just be responsible. Show up on time, prepare well and work hard for your students.

Now, most teachers work on a contract (hourly) basis and that is what Kojen promotes. If you go to ESP and make yourself available to teach most anything that comes along, you will probably get more hours than you want. If you are picky, you probably won’t. In the branch schools, the hours fluctuate depending on enrollment. You could find yourself below 18 hours a week but probably you will always work at least that many. Many teachers prefer fewer hours because they then have time to do privates.

My husband and I must go home in September, so there are two openings right there. I know of one other opening at my branch that will also be available in September. Usually, teachers take off once the summer rush is over. Some just go on vacation but others leave for good. So, I think this is a very good time for you to come on board.

Don’t sweat it so much. You’ll find work. Don’t listen to those who wish to put you on the defensive. Consider where they are coming from and have self-confidence. You’ll do well. Come over and enjoy.

26

A good question for teachers who would like to see more professionalism here is how to make that happen.

27
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzball:

But, that doesn’t change the fact that Joe Blow from Saint Louis can come over with his degree in Phys Ed and still teach, does it?

FB

Is this true?

Is there any hope of finding a job in one’s own field (if your field is not teaching)?

-Jason.

28

Jason, to the first question, yes. As long as you’ve got a bachelor’s degree in something, a language school can legally hire you to teach. Some places are picky about experience and qualifications, but others aren’t. And if you don’t need a work permit, you may not even need the degree.

In regard to your second question, that’s a whole other topic so why not start a new thread?

29

Autumn, thanks a lot for the info. Kojen sounds like a nice place, and I will definitely look into job openings there.

Peter

30
quote:
Originally posted by ckvw: A good question for teachers who would like to see more professionalism here is how to make that happen.

OK I’ll bite.

Teachers of any discipline are required to have a postgraduate qualification to legally teach in any public institution in most developed/developing countries around the world, economic conditions permitting. The same applies here for natives or non-natives.

Regarding the private sector, again most developed/developing countries insist on a recognised language teaching qualification e.g. CELTA/RSA and a minimum of a postgraduate degree for private universities. Obviously such ‘pieces of paper’ are not considered worthless as has often been suggested in this forum.

I do not know why the government of Taiwan does not consider these qualifications necessary in the private sector but I’m sure that this will eventually be a requirement as the proficiency level of the English learning population improves and the bad institutions are exposed.

31

Right. So what’s the point of giving a hard time to uncertified teachers? It won’t reduce the number of schools willing to hire uncertified teachers for relatively high wages.

Why not take a more constructive approach and encourage those teachers to get certified? Recommend programs. Try to get a local certification program started. Or perhaps there’s something teachers can be doing to speed up the adoption of higher standards for foreign English teachers.

32
quote:
Originally posted by ckvw: Right. So what's the point of giving a hard time to uncertified teachers? It won't reduce the number of schools willing to hire uncertified teachers for relatively high wages.

I believe I simply answered the question as is my right and have given no one a ‘hard time’. If they feel they need certification that is for their conscience to decide.

quote:
Originally posted by ckvw: Why not take a more constructive approach and encourage those teachers to get certified? Or perhaps there's something teachers can be doing to speed up the adoption of higher standards for foreign English teachers.

There are more TESOL courses available than you can shake a stick at, not to mention the fact that the widely known CELTA/RSA is practically a standard requirement in the TEFL profession. These need no personal endorsement.

The TEFL field is renowned for picking up drifters, indeed many notable linguists have followed the same path. If uncertified teachers have similarly drifted into, and become serious about their commitment to the profession they will undoubtedly seek out professional training and are to be applauded in doing so.

33

Autumn,
You may be right in what you say, but one look at the Kojen newsletter that gets stuffed in my mailbox from time to time makes me wonder. If this shite is what they want to use to advertise their virtues as a place to learn English, then I think they are missing the mark by a mile.

By the way. I agree with Abra, however, as a director of a school (unqualified) many moons ago, I interviewed and hired teachers (among other things). Every person who had some sort of formal teaching certificate or had university papers in some kind of learning discipine were, by far, the worst teachers.
It really appeared that they were “book smart,” but when it can to standing in front of students and relating to them, they were like fish out of water.
I’m not saying that Abra or others with letters after their names are lousy teachers, but my experience showed me that interpersonal skills and the ability to learn how to present material (that’s teaching, I guess) was more inportant than having studied language acquisition in school.

Bottom line: The majority of English teachers here are not qualified to teach, but that’s OK. As long as you realize that you are a cowboy in the wild East, that you are doing what you can to help the people here, then the world is in balance. Don’t take yourself seriously, others don’t.
If you are qualifed and are a “good” teacher, great. Have fun.
I am not being facitious here, either. I played the game myself too – for years – but I never pretended that I was some sort of pro, although I think that over the years I got better at helping students and giving them something of what they wanted.

34

Wolf,
I have no idea what they put into their newsletters as I can’t read Chinese. I’d be curious to have an example, though. I don’t really care about that though. What I care about is whether or not I make a differnece in the children’s lives. Is what I pass on to them quality teaching? Do I give them a little extra. You see, really, I don’t work for Kojen. I work for the children and the adults I teach. Nothing is perfect in life and I think you have to keep reminding yourself of what matters or not. So, they don’t put on a professional front. They sure get the students, though and back and back and back those students come. Word of mouth plays a much more important role, I think.

Overall, I am happy at Kojen. They pay me on time, are fair to me and treat me with respect. Chinese and foreign teachers get along with each other in my branch. People are pleasant to one another. There’s no pettiness or squabbling. I come home feeling I’ve made a difference in people’s lives.

Your second point about paper-qualified teachers hit home. I was actually going to address that issue next on this thread.

CKVW asked the question: how can we make teaching more professional? Besides the paper qualifications, in an ideal world, a potential employer would, ideally, interview each applicant face-to-face. Over the course of an hour or two, an intuitive, astute interviewer can glean much from the interviewee. Maturity level vs naive idealism. I say this because an idealistic person will be sorely disappointed when they realize a Bushiban is a for-profit organization. The true professional continues to do their best without becoming embittered and fed-up. To continue with my list, commitment, industriousness, good/bad judgement, caring for others and wanting to make a difference in student’s lives can all be assessed, I think. I also think it’s important to consider who is really the most important person in the room. The one at the front, or the ones looking up at the one at the front. Once ego dissolves and only thought for the learners occurs, a true teacher is born. That’s when real satisfaction occurs, independent of external conditions of many kinds at the school. that’s when the teacher gives more thought as to how I can communicate this lesson more clearly to my students.

35

Abracadabra makes a fair point totally unfairly.

I have an honors degree in Economics, one in Japanese and another in Medical Science. All of which I have never really pursued. However, I have pursued English teaching for almost 20 years. I was an English language teacher before the RSA was a by-word for certification.

As an English language teacher I have managed to be published by a number of well known education publishers. None of which required of me a degree in TESOL, all of which demanded of me a good knowledge of what I was doing. I’ve worked with people who had degrees coming out their ears yet they couldn’t hold down a class with a loaded gun.

However, I am not an advocate for people not to pursue an education in their chosen field. That’s just common sense. I do, however, believe that any teacher who has taught English for a year or two, and in that time worked dilligently at their job with good supervision, and perhaps having a knack for it out ranks any university graduate.

In fact, I can recall now one time reviewing a text created for Prentice Hall by Maquarie University in Australia- home of Australia’s premier research centre into TESOL- and having to send it back some 15 times.

36
quote:
Originally posted by Fox: As an English language teacher I have managed to be published by a number of well known education publishers. None of which required of me a degree in TESOL, all of which demanded of me a good knowledge of what I was doing.

This isn’t an amazing achievement. There are plenty of people putting out EFL texts(especially in Taiwan)without the slightest idea what they’re doing, degrees or not…my desk is shat upon daily by poorly planned, incredibly bland, unresearched textbooks. Tell me you won an international prize for an EFL text or became a billionaire by writing one for an international company, and then, I’ll be impressed. Maybe.

quote[quote]I've worked with people who had degrees coming out their ears yet they couldn't hold down a class with a loaded gun.[/quote]

Me too. On this, we agree. But degrees or not, teaching is a ongoing process of learning and investigation in the classroom. I can’t tell you how many teachers have said to me, “I do this and it works, so why would I try anything different?” Hello? Burn out is a big problem in the teaching profession and it could largely be attributed to this sort of reasoning.

quote[quote]any teacher who has taught English for a year or two, and in that time worked dilligently at their job with good supervision, and perhaps having a knack for it out ranks any university graduate.[/quote]

Do you mean one whose pursued Masters or PHd level linguistics courses? Because I’d beg to differ here. I taught English (successfully?) for 9 years before finally pursuing a Masters and found that I didn’t know a damn thing about this profession, the politics of TESOL, the terminology, the current research going on in the field, the development of curriculum, linguistic theory, discourse analysis, second language acquisition, materials analysis, etc, etc, etc. My knowledge of classroom pedagogy was all intuitive before, and I couldn’t even have understood the lexis or argument in the papers I’ve written since.

quote[quote]In fact, I can recall now one time reviewing a text created for Prentice Hall by Maquarie University in Australia- home of Australia's premier research centre into TESOL- and having to send it back some 15 times.[/quote]

This is normal. Most texts take hundreds of reviews before they’re printed. And you wouldn’t have been the ONLY one reviewing it, remember.

I’m not saying I think that one without a higher level of linguistic education is not a good teacher, or could not learn to become one, I just think that there is quite a different perspective on the profession when one has gone a step or two further in order to put theory into practice and share their findings with the industry at large.
But, it’s not for everyone, it just places you above the masses, when you have. It’s pretty good for the pocketbook and career, too.

BTW, Fox, I’ve got your number, neighbour…Pshaw anyone telling me “I never post on Oriented…”!!

37
quote:
Originally posted by wolf_reinhold: Every person who had some sort of formal teaching certificate or had university papers in some kind of learning discipine were, by far, the worst teachers. It really appeared that they were "book smart," but when it can to standing in front of students and relating to them, they were like fish out of water.

They may have been the worst teachers for chain schools or buxibans in Taiwan, where what is generally valued is the willingness to stick to the pre-established curriculum no matter how badly it sucks or how little its content or presentation has to do with what we actually know about how people acquire languages.

I would be interested to see some hard evidence that their not being able to relate to students was related to their qualifications and not to personality. Perhaps those with qualifications were hired despite unpromising looking teaching demos, while those without were not??? Just speculating.

I do NOT feel that a 30 hour or 60 hour or 120 hour certificate necessarily makes you ‘qualified’ in TESOL. I think the US is now taking an interesting approach in the National Teacher Certification process which requires classroom practice and a portfolio presentation. This type of evaluation before certification is granted is bound to be more professional and accurate a predictor of classroom performance than mere paper tests. As others have pointed out, there is more to it than knowing the irregular verbs; but then again knowing that some of them ARE irregular helps too.

Terry

38

Alien, would you consider the Asia Pacific Publishing Award for the largest listed US education and entertainment publisher good enough?

Personally I don’t necessarily, but I have a perspective born of time, distance, and experience.

As I said, I’m not an advocate for people not pursuing an education in their chosen field. It gives you depth, appreciation and skills. Why would anybody chose to advocate against it? However, it doesn’t make you a good English teacher. It simply provides a standard by which one can be measured. It might also open you up to contribute to your field in other ways such as training, curriculum design and publishing, but that certainly isn’t a given either.

If you were to read my previous posts you will see that I’m certainly an advocate for training and people putting themselves in the way of self improvement.

You yourself admit that after teaching for 9 years you went on to do a Master’s in Linguistics. Does that mean for the previous 9 years I should have recommended your sacking week in week out for not having a qualification? Of course not!

I realize you feel better for having pursued your Master’s and that it has given you back something, but does that mean Peter should not come to Taiwan and pursue a teaching career working with in what Taiwan has to offer? He may well be an excellent teacher for all we know, although I have my doubts about his sanity judging by one or two of his previous posts on other threads.

Wait! That should just about make him perfect!

Alien, telling me that shit is rolling over your desk day in day out doesn’t in and of itself indicate that you could sit down and design a curriculum from woe to go. I learn’t my curriculum design skills from Jack. C. Richards, maybe you’ve heard of him? I don’t want to pretend that that makes me great, but why should you want to be out there trying to put others down for what they are capable of doing? It seems a little odd to me.

BTW, I don’t know who you think I am, although I wish I was that person because she sounds great. Who are you? There’s no need to answer, I’ve figured you already buddy!

You were right about that Linguistics Master’s teaching you one thing, i.e. the politics of TESOL. It appears you’ve embraced it with open arms.

As for which kind of graduate I am refering to, that would be the PHd’s and Master’s graduates. Put them infront of a classroom full of kids and most of them will fold like paper. Some will be able to struggle through an adult class, but that’s about it. Without experience their qualifications have only latent value, and that’s if they don’t get scared off in their first year on the job. I recall when my sister was asked to do her PHd in education and she turned down the offer for that very reason. She knew there was little point in her reasearching a thesis when she only had her teaching rounds as experience.

39
quote[quote] I have no idea what they put into their newsletters as I can't read Chinese. [/quote]

The newsletter is in English. My point being that if they can’t even get this right, how much care and realization must they be giving their other sections?

Let me add this: I don’t really think that teaching your native language is something that requires a university degree or some sort of certification. You can learn to be one hell of a mechanic without being formally educated in it.
I think the paper-trail is overrated. I have a degree in business management…never had to whip it out and use it, per se. Sure, it has helped me insofar as “learning to learn” and fundamental principles of management, but there are many folks in management positions – doing well – who never got the degree.
Some professions, like doctors, for example, need professional training that a university can provide.

quote[quote] I would be interested to see some hard evidence that their (those certified to teach from university or elsewhere) not being able to relate to students was related to their qualifications and not to personality. [/quote]

Probably not possible. I was just relating what I personally saw and, to be fair, the sample size was not large enough to draw valid, statistical conclusions.

Here’s the only way to tell if a teacher is worth his salt: Are the students learning? Do they come back in five years and say how they have been accepted into such-and-such school and their English scores were because of you? I could give more examples, but you get the point. Just being entertaining and having the kids for a couple of months and then never knowing what happened isn’t really To Sir with Love, now is it?

40

The British Council in Malaysia, Indonesia and Japan, offer a part-time CELTA course,

If the BC’s Kaohsiung office offered one I would definitely enroll! At the moment the only option is to go to Thailand for a 1-month full-time course.

Even though I am studying for a Med TESOL I think a CELTA course would be of more practical benefit in the short-term.