[quote=“bobl”]
Has MS ever done anything original?
Can’t think of anything they haven’t stolen out right or bought from someone else.[/quote]Oh, but I can… your namesake!
DDC-CI is a way to allow monitors and graphics cards to adjust certain settings such as contrast and brightness automatically. It does little more than save users the inconvenience of having to press a few buttons on their display or helps users configure their setup so that they get a decent quality image with the least amount of hassle. The standard is controlled by VESA and is supported by Linux and Mac OS. Unless all previous versions of Windows have been pre-programmed to somehow turn up the display brightness to full or something once Vista is released I don’t see how it serves Vista at all. I think you are confused.[/quote]
I may be confused and may have used poor wording, but I know very well about the effect Vista is expected to have on future manufacturing and sales of monitors. I work for one of the world’s leading monitor manufacturers and have spoken extensively with our engineers, sales managers, and head of our monitor business unit about that, so about that, I’m not at all confused.
I don’t hate Vista because I hate Microsoft. And I don’t deny that Vista may (or may not) be an improvement; in fact, I don’t know about that, which is why I asked. But I do know for a fact that once Vista is launched, all of the leading manufacturers and sellers of monitors are expected to quickly transition into DDC-CI monitors (which are relatively scarce now), rather than the predessors to CI (DDC-B, or Bi, or 2B) that everyone uses today, and CI will quickly become the industry standard and the predecessors will soon be completely phased out. In other words, because of Vista, everyone will buy new, different monitors that are necessary to take advantage of Vista’s features.
So it’s not a whacked out conspiracy theory at all to state that Microsoft’s new OS will bring about huge new purchases of hardware – that’s a fact. So my question was, will Vista be worth it? Will it be better? Is it worthwhile for the world’s population of computer users to discard their monitors so they can enjoy Vista, or is it mostly just a ploy to boost sales?
Are you saying that now is a bad time to buy a new monitor?
Because I was seriously about to get a new one.
It seems all the flatscreen LCDs are dropping in price lately.
Are you saying that now is a bad time to buy a new monitor?
Because I was seriously about to get a new one.
It seems all the flatscreen LCDs are dropping in price lately.[/quote]
I’m no techie, so I’m curious what others have to say, but I believe (a) Microsoft is expected to launch its new, Vista, OS early in 2007 (the launch date has already been pushed back repeatedly, but it seems likely it will come out eventually), (b) for Vista to function fully and properly (or at all, I don’t know) one needs to have a DDC-CI monitor and today very few monitors are CI, and (c) once Vista is launched all the top brands (Dell, HP, Gateway, etc) and manufacturers of monitors will quickly switch over to CI, which will quickly become the predominant standard in monitors.
Therefore, I guess the questions are (1) will Vista really come out in early '07, and (2) is it really necessary to have a CI monitor to use Vista or can one use Vista to a lesser but adequate extent with a non-CI monitor, and (3) if everyone else switches over to Vista will it be necessary for you to do so also for compatibility reasons, and (4) how long do you expect to use a monitor?
I don’t know the answers to those questions, so I’m curious what the techies will say.
If this is true then how can you explain that I’m using Vista without any problems on 5 different monitors ranging from a 4 year old 15” VGA (note this would have been manufactured before the DDC-CI standard was ratified in 2003) up to a 24” Dell. How can I use Vista if my current monitors don’t support it, or rather how will I be forced to go out and buy a new monitor if my current ones work OK?
The only thing I can think of that remotely resembles the situation you are talking about is HDCP. This is the new protection system that will be used by BluRay and HD-DVD video. It’s correct to say that to watch either of these types of movies on a Vista machine, you will have to have HDCP support built into your graphics card and monitor, but this is a restriction imposed by the content owners particularly the MPAA, and is just as true if you are using Mac OS, an X-Box 360, PS3 or a standalone player.
Sure people will go out and buy new hardware when Vista launches, there have been several major advances in PC technology over the past couple of years that mean you’ll get a significantly different computing experience with a modern computer then one that’s 3 years old. Vista is a good way a showcasing those changes in a way that average people will be able to appreciate, (new look, fast search, more responsive system, new games) but I think I’ve demonstrated that there’s absolutely no block on running it on old hardware other than what is reasonable.
Is Vista worth it? Well currently it is free to download and will work on your current PC (providing it’s not that old) so you are not being forced to go out and buy new hardware. At a cost of nothing to try it out and see for yourself if all the things you’ve heard from a sister-in-law of a friend who worked in a computer store 5 years ago are true, I’d say that’s got some value.
Of course Vista is worth it. If one never upgraded, we’d still be using DOS 1.0 or Windows 1.0. Think of all the people who still haven’t used XP yet here everyone does.
I had Vista Beta 2 running on my MacBook Pro. Probably will install it again after it’s released.
I saw an interview many months ago with the lead UI designer. Some Asian American girl. What lack of talent. 
If this is true then how can you explain that I’m using Vista without any problems on 5 different monitors ranging from a 4 year old 15” VGA (note this would have been manufactured before the DDC-CI standard was ratified in 2003) up to a 24” Dell. How can I use Vista if my current monitors don’t support it, or rather how will I be forced to go out and buy a new monitor if my current ones work OK?[/quote]
I don’t know how to explain your statement, but I know for certain that I am correct: due to the launch of Vista, the world’s leading monitor sellers and manufacturers will quickly phase into CI and discontinue pre-CI models completely.
As I said, I didn’t get my info from a friend of a friend of a friend. I got it from my colleagues, the engineers, sales managers and head of the monitor business unit in my company, which is one of the world’s largest monitor manufacturers, as well as from various lawyers who have been involved in US patent infringement litigation regarding these issues. I’m no techie, but I know everyone says Vista will make CI the new standard in monitors.
Here’s what others have to say:
[quote]The Display Tune architecture is enabled by the DDC/CI (Display Data Channel Command Interface) standard ratified by VESA (Video Electronics Standards Association) in late 2004. DDC/CI describes a standard means for host computers and displays to talk with each other as well as how certain information relating to the display hardware is stored on the display.
However, many monitor manufacturers have been slow to adopt the standard across product lines, admitted McQuillan. He expects that situation to change since the hardware requirements for Vista’s “Designed for Windows” Program 3.0 logo mandates DDC/CI support.
This is a welcome development, since DDC/CI’s bidirectional interface enables these useful features. Perhaps it’s time to reconsider the checklist for display purchases in the enterprise[/quote]
eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1974715,00.asp
[quote]DDC/CI enables two-way communication between the monitor and its video adapter. That is useful for several reasons. First, these days monitors do more than just display text; the best possible display configuration is mission-critical for applications including digital prepress, graphic arts and video production. Colors that don’t match the printed page or are off because of an incorrect setting chew up time and require expensive corrections. Second, having monitor configuration under software control means that end-user software applications can set up the best possible display modes for their screens without having to reboot the PC to a known state. And, third, poorly configured monitors can cause unneeded eyestrain for users.
Currently, NaViSet runs on roughly a dozen different models out of the entire line of NEC/Mitsubishi monitors, although it does run on some of the newer models, including the MultiSync LCD 1880SX and some models of the Mitsubishi-Diamond displays. The free software works only with Windows 2000 and XP versions. That is because earlier versions of Windows are not compatible with the DDC/CI-interface specifications. [/quote]
varbusiness.com/sections/tec … tid=299028
Well judging by many of the replies in this thread anyone who has an opinion worth anything about Microsoft or Windows Vista is still using Win2k.
Here’s a thought. If you think Microsoft products are a POS maybe it’s because you’re using 6 year old software! When Win2k came out OS X was still a twinkle in Steve’s eye. How many in the Mac community are steadfastly sticking to OS 9? Who’s still using Linux kernel 2.2 on a daily basis?
The designed for Windows program is for new hardware and has absolutely no impact on existing hardware. It is also not compulsory that hardware makers take part in it.
Basically what is happening is that Microsoft have added support for an industry standard that contains many useful benefits to end-users* and are suggesting that manufacturers and vendors support it too.
There’s no “forced to buy a new monitor or Vista will not work”. You are claiming to represent a major display manufacturer and using that authority to spread an outright untruth. (unintentionally I will grant you, but that’s no excuse).
People buying a new PC system after the launch of Vista will get the benefits of easy configuration, better color reproduction and reduced eye stain at no extra cost (unless of course your company wants to increase the cost of its displays, but even then Microsoft won’t profit.) People wishing to use their old hardware if it does not support these features will have to resort to configuring their display manually, in a situation almost/if not exactly the same as they do now. Other than that Vista will function the same.
In no way whatsoever will Vista fail to work with a display just because it does not support DDC/CI thus forcing the owner to buy a new display. Anyone suggesting that is will is either confused of the facts or…
(we have both suggested that you could be confused, so I will end there)
*[quote]DDC/CI enables two-way communication between the monitor and its video adapter. That is useful for several reasons. First, these days monitors do more than just display text; the best possible display configuration is mission-critical for applications including digital prepress, graphic arts and video production. Colors that don’t match the printed page or are off because of an incorrect setting chew up time and require expensive corrections. Second, having monitor configuration under software control means that end-user software applications can set up the best possible display modes for their screens without having to reboot the PC to a known state. And, third, poorly configured monitors can cause unneeded eyestrain for users.[/quote]
[quote=“Rik”][quote=“gary”]
Here’s a thought. If you think Microsoft products are a POS maybe it’s because you’re using 6 year old software! When Win2k came out OS X was still a twinkle in Steve’s eye. How many in the Mac community are steadfastly sticking to OS 9? Who’s still using Linux kernel 2.2 on a daily basis?[/quote][/quote]
My IT days ended with XP and 2000 Server. I’ve setup 2003 Server and Exchange 2003 once. I’ve also used XP quite a bit.
Have you really used OS X? For years and years and read books about how to use all of it’s features? If you know Windows, Linux, and OS X like an IT person, then maybe you’ll be able to compare. 
Why I think Microsoft isn’t so great. One thing, I’ve said here before. ) Know about Office 2007? When MS asked customers what they wanted, 9 out of 10 people asked for features already in Office. It took a customer to tell Microsoft that their software is not easy to use.
Apple is still progressing. But they have always thought about how to make computing accessible to the common man.
There are so many little things in the OS X interface. Like I click the minimize or close button of a window not in focus, and it will leave my current front window focused. I can also drag files from a background finder window to my current app and window focus doesn’t change. I can close all windows in an application by option-clicking the close button.
Want to know how bad UI design is at Microsoft. Talk to a place with some perspective like the local university. See what Human Computer Interaction majors at the U of Washington say about MS.
And for people that know Windows or OS X very very well and want to be even more productive, consider scripting. How many Windows applications can be scripted thru VB Script? And how many people do it? Is Picassa VB scriptable? Windows Explorer? the Vista photo application? Outlook Express or Vista’s Windows Mail? Interet Explorer? Is it possible to script let’s say figuring out which IE Windows are open and combining them into tabs? Or vice versa? maybe. I haven’t tried. So many applications in OS X are AppleScriptable; and it’s a language easier to learn for the common person than VB Script.
Here’s some more Rik. I don’t mean any offense to you by posting all of this crap about Vista, and I’m sure you understand tech stuff a lot better than I do, and I believe you when you say that you use Vista presently with non-DDC-CI monitors, but I don’t know how to reconcile your statements and mine, because I know I too am correct. Perhaps, somehow, we’re both right.
[quote]The biggest obstacle in creating a solution for a software managed display is implementing bi-directional communications from the host to the peripheral. The host must be able to send commands to the display and receive information back in real time. In the past, this required the addition of USB, Ethernet, Firewire, or other bi-directional circuitry which was a cost adder to the BOM. A more elegant solution would be to use the display’s analog or digital cable as means to communicate bi-directionally.
The VESA DDC/CI standard does just that. The standard defines the bi-directional pipeline to control the display directly from the mouse or keyboard through the standard analog or DVI cable. This solution requires that the graphics card driver support I2C communication and that an API is available to communicate from the host to the display.
In addition, the display firmware must have the proper hooks in place to accept commands written from the host. VESA has defined a universal set of Virtual Control Panel (VCP) codes in the Monitor Control Command Set (MCCS) Standard. These codes, when embedded in the firmware of the display, allow the host application to read and write commands to control the screen settings of the display. The cost adder for DDC/CI enabled displays is negligible as all mainstream scalers have affordable solutions that are currently shipping into the market.
With the upcoming release of Microsoft’s Vista, all computer displays will be required to have basic functionality in their firmware to take advantage of software controls that will be integrated into the Vista operating system. [/quote]
portrait.com/us/products/dt_ … plays.html
Bullshit. I am not spreading an untruth. Due to the launch of Vista all major monitor sellers and manufacturers will quickly phase into DDC-CI and out of the prior versions of DDC.
I don’t believe I ever said Vista wouldn’t work with a CI display; I believe I asked if it would. However, I did say the launch of Vista would lead to a quick shift in the industry standard in monitors to CI and I stand by that statement. Apparently the reason is because Vista makes possible the use of CI and not the opposite, but that doesn’t make my statement any less true.
oops, dp
Bullshit. I am not spreading an untruth. Due to the launch of Vista all major monitor sellers and manufacturers will quickly phase into DDC-CI and out of the prior versions of DDC.[/quote]
And again I say, this does not affect existing users and their hardware. Nobody will be forced to go out and buy a new display just because of Vista.
I don’t believe I ever said Vista wouldn’t work with a CI display; I believe I asked if it would. However, I did say the launch of Vista would lead to a quick shift in the industry standard in monitors to CI and I stand by that statement. Apparently the reason is because Vista makes possible the use of CI and not the opposite, but that doesn’t make my statement any less true.[/quote]
You originally said:
[quote]because of Vista, everyone will buy new, different monitors that are necessary to take advantage of Vista’s features.
So it’s not a whacked out conspiracy theory at all to state that Microsoft’s new OS will bring about huge new purchases of hardware – that’s a fact.
Is it worthwhile for the world’s population of computer users to discard their monitors so they can enjoy Vista, or is it mostly just a ploy to boost sales?[/quote]
There’s a world of difference between “everyone is going to have to buy new hardware because Microsoft are part of a conspiracy to force everyone to buy new hardware every 3 years” (I know you didn’t say all of this, but some of the comments in the thread that you were responding to amount to this) and “Microsoft are implementing support for ‘useful’ features into Vista, and by doing so they are finally giving the hardware industry a big enough push that they are being driven to implement a 3 year old standard in to their future product lines.” I think we we can agree on that.
And yes, Vista will work with displays that don’t support DDC/CI.
I wasn’t posting at you, more that your comments about everyone using XP inspired that thought.
As one smugly arrogant cunt talking to another maybe you’ll understand what I’m trying to get across if I said:
“I’ve not used Leopard, it’s just a trick by Apple to make me buy a new MacBook and iTV. Nobody needs anything more than OS 9. My next OS is going to be BSD.”
No, I haven’t used OS X as much as I should have, but no one’s going to get any arguments from me that it’s not a perfectly good choice for a large number of people. I was set on making my next system a Mac, but then Vista came out with a few betas and convinced me that it isn’t going to suck quite a much as I thought it would. That’s probably why I’ve got quite a lot to say on the topic.
[quote=“Rik”]@gary
I wasn’t posting at you, more that your comments about everyone using XP inspired that thought.
As one smugly arrogant cunt talking to another maybe you’ll understand what I’m trying to get across if I said:
“I’ve not used Leopard, it’s just a trick by Apple to make me buy a new MacBook and iTV. Nobody needs anything more than OS 9. My next OS is going to be BSD.”
No, I haven’t used OS X as much as I should have, but no one’s going to get any arguments from me that it’s not a perfectly good choice for a large number of people. I was set on making my next system a Mac, but then Vista came out with a few betas and convinced me that it isn’t going to suck quite a much as I thought it would. That’s probably why I’ve got quite a lot to say on the topic.[/quote]
I understood the comments weren’t directed towards me but was kind of compelled to say something about Vista vs Leopard. I understand Microsoft isn’t quite the best company and agree there are some strange arguments in this thread.
I was curious about VBScript vs AppleScript. I get the impression that not many Windows powers users script their apps to help their workflow. VBScript is still kind of meant for programmers. For example, to get the URL of a browser compare:
Sub Main
Dim ie As SHDocVw.InternetExplorer
Set ie = GetObject(“InternetExplorer.Application”)
MsgBox ie.LocationURL
End Sub
tell application “Safari”
display dialog URL of document 1 as string
end tell
If it is possible to VBScript Windows Media Player, imagine if someone wanted to do search and replace with their music file tags, it’d be quite a program. AppleScript and iTunes is much easier.
As for Vista, I think it’s a big improvement and well worth the upgrade.
Sorry to keep flogging this horse, but I’d still appreciate an explanation from some of you techies. As I said, I am certain that all major sellers and manufacturers of computer displays expect to quickly shift to DDC-CI displays (instead of its predecessors) as a result of the widespread launch of MS Vista. I admit to being less certain whether that’s because (a) CI enables Vista to function fully, or (b) Vista enables CI to function fully. The fact that Rik claims to use Vista on various pre-CI monitors suggests the answer is (b), but some of the research I dug up seems to suggest the contrary, such as this:
[quote]With the upcoming release of Microsoft’s Longhorn [Vista], all computer displays will need to have a basic functionality in their firmware to take advantage of software controls that will be integrated into the OS. . .
The biggest obstacle in creating a solution for a software managed displayisimplementingbi-directional communications from the host to the peripheral. The host must be able to send commands to the display and receive information back in real time. . .
The VESA DDC/CI standard does just that. The standard defines the bi-directional pipeline to control the display directly from the mouse or keyboard . . .
With the upcoming release of Microsoft’s Vista, all computer displays will be required to have basic functionality in their firmware to take advantage of software controls that will be integrated into the Vista operating system. . .
traditional asset control implementations fell short by not controlling the display remotely over the network. Only with the introduction of bi-directional communication did asset management software finally provide the necessary control to track the display and control all functions supported within the firmware. For example,industry-standardDDC/CIbi-directional communication allows the standard monitor cable to communicate between the client’s computer and display . . .
The display is an investment and its visual quality paramount to the user’s computing experience. . . And with Vista on the horizon, now is the time to design the necessary commands for tomorrow’s operating system while adding compelling features that address today’s markets.[/quote]
portrait.com/us/products/dt_ … 20vista%22
If someone could translate that to plain English, I’d be much obliged.
Wow, now I understand why some people run away in panic when two techies start talking about IT stuff. 
Here’s my take: DDC/CI has been around for a while. My Diamond Pro CRT (!) monitor supports DDC/CI, which means I can make certain adjustments through the PC using my mouse or keyboard instead of pressing the corresponding buttons on the monitor. Wohoo! Virtual monitor buttons! I used this feature on the day I first connected the monitor and then never again until this evening, when I marveled at stretching the display using my mouse, clicking on the “stretch display horizontally”-button displayed on my screen (with the ATI driver and Win XP, BTW). Seriously, except for crazy techies, admins in charge of many PCs, bored forumosans and the monitor industry, I believe nobody cares about this issue. The folks in the monitor industry talk about it because apparently their monitors will have to support DDC/CI to get the “designed for Windows Vista” logo.
So: DDC/CI is required to get the logo. It’s not required to run Vista. If you don’t have a DDC/CI enabled monitor, you’ll have to adjust it the same way you do today. With a DDC/CI enabled monitor, you’ll be able to use the standardized Vista interface to configure it.
Ok, time to wake up the audience (throwing stun grenade).
[color=yellow]FLASH![/color] [color=red]BANG![/color]
Welcome back. How come nobody mentioned the multilingual user interface (MUI) yet? Finally you’ll be able to switch the interface language of Windows itself! I hope all versions of Vista will be able to do this. Does it already work with RC1?
I actually purchased new hard-to-get XP Pro multilingual licenses for several PCs 'cause I was so sick of having to deal with the Chinese XP interface and people who can’t translate what that message on the screen says. If Vista ships with the MUI, that’s a much better reason to upgrade than DDC/whatever!
[quote=“gary”][quote=“Rik”]@gary
I wasn’t posting at you, more that your comments about everyone using XP inspired that thought.
As one smugly arrogant cunt talking to another maybe you’ll understand what I’m trying to get across if I said:
“I’ve not used Leopard, it’s just a trick by Apple to make me buy a new MacBook and iTV. Nobody needs anything more than OS 9. My next OS is going to be BSD.”
No, I haven’t used OS X as much as I should have, but no one’s going to get any arguments from me that it’s not a perfectly good choice for a large number of people. I was set on making my next system a Mac, but then Vista came out with a few betas and convinced me that it isn’t going to suck quite a much as I thought it would. That’s probably why I’ve got quite a lot to say on the topic.[/quote]
I understood the comments weren’t directed towards me but was kind of compelled to say something about Vista vs Leopard. I understand Microsoft isn’t quite the best company and agree there are some strange arguments in this thread.
I was curious about VBScript vs AppleScript. I get the impression that not many Windows powers users script their apps to help their workflow. VBScript is still kind of meant for programmers. For example, to get the URL of a browser compare:
Sub Main
Dim ie As SHDocVw.InternetExplorer
Set ie = GetObject(“InternetExplorer.Application”)
MsgBox ie.LocationURL
End Sub
tell application “Safari”
display dialog URL of document 1 as string
end tell
If it is possible to VBScript Windows Media Player, imagine if someone wanted to do search and replace with their music file tags, it’d be quite a program. AppleScript and iTunes is much easier.
As for Vista, I think it’s a big improvement and well worth the upgrade.[/quote]
Guys, how many users of both OS’s are scripting? 1-2%, so I guess it’s not really relevant.
I bought a new laptop a few days ago and there is a sticker on it mentionning “WINDOWS VISTA READY”
Is this just another marketing trick from ASUS, or will there be some benefits already taken off pro-actively?