He did. In an interview with the BBC. Bush has failed to address any of the perceived causes of the disenchantment with the US leading to terrorism. So is Musharraf right?
Freda?
BroonAbbottabad
Of course its not working, Musharraf is still in power isn’t he? 
Wait until after US invades Pakistan and frees the citizens from its oppresive regime so they may hold free elections for their leaders who had been previously replaced in a military coup/dictatorship :raspberry:
Perhaps M is referring to poverty and corrupt government as root causes?
Fair enough.
But rectifying those root causes are precisely the point of regime change: democratic governments, market-based economies, allowing all individuals to put their talents to the best use they see fit.
Academics whose job it is to study these things tell us that is what needs doing.
So, if M is saying the US has not tried to address these causes, he is wrong. of course, he may just be looking for a handout.
I agree with Musharaff that any serious approach to terrorism requires a better strategy than simply 'smoking ‘em out’ without a serious look at its root causes and developing a serious way of working as a coalition interested in mutual self-preservation. The reasons for preventing terrorism are clear to most developed (and developing?) nations, but much more dialogue needs to be started on how to stop it. But if you want to kill fire ants, you don’t just bomb their nests. You have to think like the ant, walk like the ant and then you can gas yourself.
That is true. You can.
[i]Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet pavement, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn
Poverty and corrupt governments exist aplenty in Africa, South America and Asia yet where is the terrorism?
Survey after survey of Arab/Muslim populations around the world reveal three main reasons why even middle-class Muslims support or are sympathetic to terrorism:
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Occupation of Arab lands by Israel and the U.S.
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Mistreatment of the Palestinian people by the U.S.-backed Israelis
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U.S. support for corrupt Arab/Muslim governments at the expense of the citizenry
You may argue that Arab populations don’t really know why they’re hostile to the U.S. and Israel but arguing that these aren’t the primary results of survey after survey of Arab/Muslim populations is just willful ignorance – or worse.
IYBF good to see you back.
Israel is obviously a sore point, but the real issues are historical meddling in Arab affairs by the British, followed by the US and Russians.
The backing of the Shar of Iran, the backing of the Ayatollah against Saddam, the backing of Saddam against the Ayatollah, the backing of Kuwait against Saddam, the backing of the Saudi Royal Family, the undermining of the Syrians, the bombing of Lybia, the ousting of Saddam.
Is the US seen as a force for good? So much duplicity ultimately undermines ones credibility if not in the majority of the population in a sizable minority a minority large enough to feed and support more terrorism.
Success in Iraq is more important than ever, but what are the terms of that success. How can it really be measured? It’s one thing to say that we are going to bring democray and freemarkets to the middle east. What does that mean, how can it be quantified and measured? What’s more if it’s nothing short of an unqualified success it has probably led to an increase in terrorism. The reason being that meddling is the perception that makes the west a scapegoat for the maniacs that want to bomb us.
Bleedin’ rampant, mate - that’s wot.
Sudan, Rwanda, S. Africa, Ethiopia… the list goes on. Latin America, too - Shining Path, etc. indonesia…thailand…N.Korea. Many more.
Maybe not much has been directed against the US, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Israel is certainly a bone of contention for Arabs in the middle east. However, I fear that there is also an element of recapturing past Muslim empires. It explains a lot of the rhetoric used by arab terrorists.
Bullshit.
Horseshit.
Dogshit.
This Israel myth as the reason for the whole mess in the Middle East is a crock of shit. Why is it that the Palestinian Christians are not strapping bombs to their children and womenfolk? Aren’t they equally being dispossessed? and ironically many of them are being driven out of their homes and from their land (mostly Bethlehem and Ramallah) by the Muslims. Talk about double dispossession, but only the Muslims are “victims” right? Bullshit.
Finally, you want to talk about American involvement in countries look at Latin America. When was the last time a Nicaraguan or Cuban thought of sending terrorist hit squads to the US? You think that America has not been muscularly present in Southeast Asia? Where are the Vietnamese bomb squads? What about the Filipino terrorists? Where are the Japanese and Korean shoe bombers? Bullshit.
No. The problem and root causes if you will are as follows:
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Hitler’s Germany and all its anti-Semitism was adopted as a model by many of the Muslim and pan-Arab dictatorships that you see in the Middle East today. That is why you have this virulent and genetic-based hatred. It was a formula and one that has become an all too familiar DNA of the Middle East.
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Given this Nazi base for their regimes, it is hardly surprising that Anti-Semitism and here I mean Jews is part and parcel of that system. There is the same hatred and fear of modernity of which the Americans and Jews are seen as the vanguard. The Germans had to go back to this mythical Valhalla to find their pre-modern Garden of Eden that could be restored if urban, city, modern Jews were removed. I think that Leon Uris put it best when he said that there was something in the Germans that was semicivilized and they wanted to remain pagan and continue their nomadic forest life. They resented the civilizing and controlling forces of Christianity. Look at Wagnerian opera. The archetypes along these lines would give Carl Junge a field day.
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The US may be involved in the Middle East but remember this is not a one-sided picture. We stopped the British, French and Israelis from taking over the Suez Canal. Remember? Remember when we helped the PLO escape from Beirut where it would have been decimated by the Israeli army? Remember all the aid money that we have given Egypt, all the weapons that we have sold to the Gulf Arabs, how we helped Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc etc. This is conveniently never mentioned.
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We are one of the key customers of Arab oil and therefore why would they want to offend their best customer?
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The pan-Arab idea is a tired and failed one. It has never worked in the 50 years that it has been attempted. The populations of these countries know full well that their leaders are corrupt dictators who say one thing in public and do another in private. The protests against Israel and the US are organized just as they were in Communist Russia. When 10 people cannot even “assemble” in most of these countries, just how is it that 100,000 can “spontaneously” take to the streets. Bullshit! How the hell do they all find out where to go and when to protest when there is an absolute crackdown on any dissident or opposition literature being printed? Hmmm? How does that work exactly?
Ergo, get off the Jews. Forget about blaming US policies. This is about Islamofascism plain and simple. World War II is not over yet. The “dreams” that inspired Hitler are alive and well in the Middle East. We should worry about the “root causes” of Islamofascism with the same bombs that we sent to Germany.
My whole family was decimated in bomb attacks in Germany in World War II and I cannot find one that blames the US or British nor can I find one that does not recognize that they were treated most mercifully by the Americans and British. They had the Russians after all for a good comparison.
Ditto in the Muslim world. Had the Iranians taken over Iraq as the Americans have now, what would the local population have been able to expect? When Israel conquers an area, what happens to the populace? What would have happened had the Arabs conquered Israel instead? We all know these things. It is just that some of us are damned and determined to make this a matter involving the Jews and that may be a “root cause” worth looking at. Perhaps, an anti-Jewish upbringing? Who knows but I strongly suggest a little self scrutiny.
But for the rest of this, root causes my ass. Let’s get rid of a few more dictators and see what happens when the population is allowed to actually express itself openly rather than have its frustrations channeled into some government organized “protests.” Bull f***ing shit.
Those that gave us the same shameless illusions about weapons of mass destruction, operational links between Iraq and al Quaeda, the welcoming reaction of Iraqis to American occupation, the cost and duration of the war in Iraq are now telling us they know the roots causes of the violence in the Middle East.
I think not. There’s no reason to think they’re any less clueless now then they were last year or the year before.
Clueless? Really? Tell me Spook what exactly the US accomplished in the Middle East oh I don’t know pre-Sept. 11 that you feel is so noteworthy and then again I have printed this out before but will do it again.
Why is it that Libya turned its weapons of mass destruction over not to the UN not to France not to Germany and that it did so after we invaded Iraq and finalized the deal when we pulled Saddam out of that hole?
Why is it that Pakistan has finally ended Dr. Khan’s nuclear blackmarket and put him under house arrest. This program had been in place for the better part of 35 years and then suddenly it is ended?
Why is it that the Syrians are starting to pull their troops out of Lebanon?
Why is it that elections are being held throughout the Gulf? Why is it that Saudi Arabia is having elections?
Why is it that Saudi Arabia is cracking down on Al Qaeda? Why is it that Pakistan is cracking down on Al Qaeda? Why is it that Afghanistan is free of the Taliban and just had its first ever election? Why are Pakistan and India talking to each other? Why has Pakistan announced new measures to negotiate a settlement to the Kashmir problem? Why has Pakistan announced that it is ending support of Muslim militants in Kashmir?
Why is it that Sudan negotiated an end to the civil war in the South and now had international pressure on it to deal with Darfur? Why is it that Somalia is cooperating with international agencies and is asking for help to build a nation?
Why has the civil war in Algeria suddenly gone very quiet? Why is it that all throughout the Middle East, governments are cooperating to crack down on terrorist and insurgent groups that had been flourishing since the mid-1970s?
Why is it that Arafat was sidelined?
Why is it that there is international pressure on Iran? Was Iran not developing weapons before?
So for all spook’s points that the American people have somehow been misled on some neocon goose chase, I say, look at the changes in the Middle East and tell me that things are not better.
Today, we know Saddam and sons are out of business. We know they are not developing wmds and this is something that no one honestly could say before not just Bush. We know that Iraq has a chance to move toward a more stable democracy, whether it does is up to the Iraqis but no one can say that they were not given a wonderful opportunity.
What spook does have a point about is that there are far more troops in Iraq than we originally planned and that they may have to stay longer than we planned but we also planned on losing 20,000 troops in three months of fighting to defeat Saddam. The insurgency is worse than expected. But overall, I think that we can be very pleased and grateful that we have accomplished so much so far. After all, these were problems for 40 years and nothing was done about them. We are just starting to clean up this rat’s nest. It has been three years so why beat up on us for any policy miscalculations while remaining silent about the utter f***ing disaster that was the last 40?
[quote=“fred smith”]
Why is it that Pakistan has finally ended Dr. Khan’s nuclear blackmarket and put him under house arrest. This program had been in place for the better part of 35 years and then suddenly it is ended?[/quote]
[color=blue]More Neocluelessness:[/color]
Islamabad, Dec 8, IRNA – Pakistan carried out successful test-fires
of a nuclear-capable ballistic missile on Wednesday as part of efforts
to boost its nuclear capability . . .
In October, Pakistan test-fired the nuclear-capable ballistic
missile Hatf V, a type of Ghauri missile with a range of 940 miles
(1,500 km) which can carry a one-ton payload. . .
It was developed by Khan Research Laboratories, Pakistans main uranium-enrichment facility, which was named after Abdul Qadeer Khan, revered as the father of the countrys atomic bomb.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/pakistan/2004/pakistan-041208-irna01.htm
[quote=“spook”][quote=“fred smith”]
Why is it that Pakistan has finally ended Dr. Khan’s nuclear [color=red]blackmarket [/color]and put him under house arrest. This program had been in place for the better part of 35 years and then suddenly it is ended?[/quote]
[color=blue]More Neocluelessness:[/color]
Islamabad, Dec 8, IRNA – Pakistan carried out successful test-fires
of a nuclear-capable ballistic missile on Wednesday as part of efforts
to boost its nuclear capability . . .[/quote]
They sure don’t make black markets like they used to. Black-market nukes (i.e. those are secretly sold to terrorists or rogue nations) used to be easily distinguishable from non-black-market nukes that were, for example, used in a nation’s official (i.e. not black market) ballistic missile programs.
Apparently spook’s sources have informed him that this missile test, which to the rest of the world appeared to be an official Pakistan military exercise, is in fact part of the black-market program that everyone (other than spook and his secret source) thinks has been closed down. This tactic, sometimes known as “hiding in plain sight”, is a reminder of how clever and resourceful those sneaky black market operators can be.
Thus must we be ever vigilant. Ever vigilant.
Sept. 14, 2004
HEADLINE: Pakistan to Tighten Controls on Nuclear/Biological Technology Exports
INTRO: Pakistan’s parliament has passed legislation tightening controls on the export of weapons-making nuclear and biological technology, as well as missile delivery systems. Ayaz Gul reports for Islamabad . . .
The new law calls for a prison sentence of up to 14-years or a fine of up to 85-thousand dollars or both for any anyone spreading nuclear technology or hardware. . .
Pakistan has been under pressure from the United States and other Western nations to strengthen the safeguards around its nuclear weapons program. . .
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf pardoned Mr. Khan, after he confessed his crime and made a televised apology for his role in the
proliferation scandal last February.
The top Pakistani scientist is closely guarded at his house in Islamabad, although authorities deny he is under house arrest.
[color=blue]So the Khan Laboratories which proliferated the weapons of mass destruction technology to Libya, North Korea and Iran are still in full swing, all that stands between us and more lucrative nuclear weapons proliferation is an 85-thousand dollar fine, and Pakistan denies that Dr. Khan is under house arrest.
What’s wrong with this picture?[/color]
What evidence do you have that the nuclear black market is in full swing and what conclusions should we draw? I do not see that your point is proven or that it necessarily follows and EVEN if Pakistan allows Dr. Khan to continue he nuclear black market though I do not believe that is the case, the fact is that the situation now is better than at any time during the past 40 years. So get over it. Bush did something right and his policies are delivering tangible results. Score one for the neocons even though some of them are … Jews…
All the players and all the elements of Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation operation are still in place. The only thing that happened is a few scapegoats received slaps on the wrist.
The only thing standing between them and starting up their clandestine trade again is some fevered delusions.
Big dismissive words Spooky:
Got any proof to go with that attitude? Hmmmm? Didn’t think so…
You’re the one who made the claim, Fred, that the Pakstani weapons of mass destruction proliferation operation has been shut down. I’ve seen no evidence from you or anyone else to back that claim up. The Dr. A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, the primary source of key nuclear weapons technology transfers to Libya, Iran and North Korea, is still in full operation continuing its nuclear weapons development programs.
Is it really permanently out of the nuclear weapons middleman business? You be the judge:
[color=blue]2004-01-05
New York Times
By David E. Sanger & William J. Broad
The Pakistani leaders who denied for years that scientists at the country’s secret A. Q. Khan Research Laboratories were peddling advanced nuclear technology must have been averting their eyes from a most conspicuous piece of evidence: the laboratory’s own sales brochure, quietly circulated to aspiring nuclear weapons states and a network of nuclear middlemen around the world.
The cover bears an official-looking seal that says “Government of Pakistan” and a photograph of the father of the Pakistani bomb, Abdul Qadeer Khan. It promotes components that were spinoffs from Pakistan’s three-decade-long project to build a nuclear stockpile of enriched uranium, set in a drawing that bears a striking resemblance to a mushroom cloud.[/color]
http://nucnews.net/nucnews/2004nn/0401nn/040105nn.htm#021
The bizarre twist here is that the Bush Administration and its neconservative supporters are providing tacit cover and support for the true weapons of mass destruction proliferator in the Middle East, Pakistan, without which North Korea and Iran likely couldn’t have gone nuclear.
Go figure.
Just more evidence that the masterminds of mass incompetence currently in charge of things are way out of their league.
Spook:
First, your report is dated from Jan. 2004 when this whole thing blew up and Dr. Khan was exposed and placed under house arrest.
The report mentions the problem as going back to 1976. Ergo, how can this be laid to Bush’s feet?
Second, what did all the interim administrations do?
Third, given that we have at least exposed and stopped this network (and you have offered no proof that it is still selling arms and trading secrets since it was exposed).
Fourth, what do you suggest? An invasion of Pakistan which is already nuclear armed? This is why we invaded Iraq. To prevent it from BECOMING a nuclear power that would have been much more difficult to handle.
Fifth, given that Pakistan is cooperating in many areas, and appears to be cooperating here, what is your beef? Do you think that we should risk our relationship with Pakistan to uphold your ideals of “black and white” relations? I mean isn’t that what so many of your ilk say about Bush? I mean you are either with us or against us? In fact, is not Bush showing a great deal of “nuance” by attempting to subtly influence Pakistan? Given that our relationship is never going to be perfect, aren’t we in fact getting about as much out of it as we can expect? Does Musharraf control everyone in his intelligence services? The army? Hell, given the leaks in the US, it is apparent that the White House does not have full control over the CIA or the Armed Forces either. Are you suggesting that Bush have a free hand to fire every Valerie Plame, Joseph Wilson, etc. etc.? Are you sure that you want to go down that path?
Also, look once again where the problem truly is coming from… in a quote from your own sources…
So here, we have German authorities determining that a ship in the Suez canal was shipping illegal components? why? does Germany have a fleet in the Suez Canal? Or did Germany once again determine that its companies were illegally arming a nation ala their extensive supplies to nations such as Iraq where their equipment accounted for 50 percent of Saddam’s nuclear, chemical and missile programs?
Then, we have this…
So you are saying Iran is a problem that should be taken out? I would agree. Are you signing up for action against Iran?
Then, we have this…
So again this is Germany which did not act to stop the shipment on its own but because it got caught by the US and this is what brought down the whole house of cards. Look at the stress on European suppliers. Once again, these are the same people that are putting pressure on the EU to lift the ban on sales of weapons to China. Look here who the true flouters of international law are. What do the Europeans and especially the Germans on this forum have to say about their nation’s gross violations of international law and arming of the worst regimes in the world?
Then, from your own sources…
Your own article agrees with me and Bush’s actions in Pakistan. What would you do with Pakistan? What can we do? Do you want to invade? Do you want to put even more pressure that could cause Pakistan to “tip?” and then what? Shouldn’t we try to mop up the region while we have the time? Let’s get rid of Iran and Syria and blockade North Korea first and then hopefully we will have all these other actors out of the picture BEFORE we may have to deal with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. We do not have the luxury of waiting longer. Thank God we took out Saddam when we did. Can you imagine Pakistan “tipping” and then supplying all of these weapons to Saddam while he was still in power? Use your damned head to think about this and you post this article and you actually think this is buttressing your cause? your position? Did you even read this article!!!
It would appear that the Palestinian Christians, living as they do in the midst of the Muslims, would not be in a good position to start strapping bombs to anybody. Why would they do it? Who would they attack? Besides, the bulk of Israeli ire appears to be aimed at the Muslims, not the Christians. However, when the Israelis re-create the nightmarish ghetto experience from Warsaw and Krakow in the Israeli-Palestinian context, we’re supposed to sit back and wonder if it is only “coincidence” that there is a resemblance?? Next time I’m in a night market, I suppose I’m supposed to think it’s a complete accident that the guys running the stalls have coincidentally invented their own shoe brand named “Nike” that also (by pure chance) has a big “swoosh” symbol on it. Sorry, we’re just not that naive.
It would be nice if the Israelis would stop spying on us. Pollard is the tip of the iceberg. When was the last time the Israelis truly played ball with us? Perhaps during Gulf War I, when they held back from whomping Saddam for the Scuds he was sending at them. However, what have they done for middle east peace lately? Squat, squat and more squat. Instead, we have them trying to undermine U.S. security with more spies.