Musharraf Says Bush War On Terror Not Working

Politics International Politics
21

[quote=“mofangongren”]

It would be nice if the Israelis would stop spying on us. Pollard is the tip of the iceberg. When was the last time the Israelis truly played ball with us? Perhaps during Gulf War I, when they held back from whomping Saddam for the Scuds he was sending at them. However, what have they done for middle east peace lately? Squat, squat and more squat. Instead, we have them trying to undermine U.S. security with more spies.[/quote]

Would it be possible to get a quick explanation of how you got from A to B here?

[color=blue]Fred’s Question: [/color]Why is it that the people in Latin America or Southeast Asia (those who feel they’ve been oppressed/harmed by US military action) have been, in comparison with Muslims, so much less likely resort to murdering innocent people to express their anger?

[color=blue]Mofangongren’s Answer:[/color] “It would be nice if the Israelis would stop spying on us.”

I’m sure the quicker minds on the board understood the segue. But please give a hand to us slow kids in class who are still struggling to find the connection?

22

The answer to Fred’s question I think is that wherever religion – in any of its forms – and politics intermix the level of barbarity knows no bounds.

In the Middle East Islam and Judaism teach that the road to heaven is paved with the bones of non-believers.

In East Timor and Mindanao it’s Christianity and Islam mixing with statism to create religious monsterism.

In Vietnam, Central America and 20th century China the barbarities arose from the clash of the religions of Marxist-Leninism with Christian Capitalism.

Wherever on earth God and country are indistinguishably one, hell reigns. That’s why every wise man and woman the world has ever produced has preached that the commingling of God and Mammon is anathema.

23

Bullshit spook:

Where is the Jewish terrorism? Why are 11% of the Knesset representatives Arabs? Why does the Israeli high court routinely rule in favor of the Arabs and their causes? Why is half the population of Israel generally leftist and in favor of making great concessions to the Arabs and Palestinians? Where do you see that on the other side?

The problem in Mindanao is primiarly Muslim extremism as it is in southern Thailand as it is in Bali as it is in India as it is in Kashmir as it is in Pakistan where the Shias are routinely targeted, as it is in Iraq as it is in Syria as it is in Lebanon as it is in Palestine as it is in Saudi Arabia as it is in Egypt as it is in Algeria as it is in Sudan as it is in Morocco as it is in the slums of Europe’s cities. Only you would be able to morally equate all of this as somehow religion and politics mixing. Where has Christianity shanghaied a government and turned it fundamentalist? What about Hinduism in India? What about Hinduism in Bali? What about Buddhism in Thailand? So bullshit. Get off this kick that all these fights are somehow involving two parties that are equally to blame. That ain’t the case my friend and as MFGR always says Denial ain’t a river in Egypt. And give me a f****ing break, Vietnamese Christian capitalism vs Communism? Are you serious? Try just simply a ruthless communist regime hell bent on conquering another country.

If you could just step outside your hatred, paranoia, suspicion and jealousy of the Jews for two seconds you might be able to see that. Sorry you cannot. Perhaps that is a case of your religion and politics mixing unfavorably?

24

You might want to consider taking your own advice and checking into the “hatred, paranoia, suspicion and jealousy of Muslims” clinic for a round of treatment.

My only jones is separation of church and state. Actually nothing more sinister than Civics 101. Whenever Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shintoism, Hinduism – atheism – has joined with state power and ambition, rationality goes out the window and unbridled barbarism enters the stage.

No religion is immune to this pernicious consequence.

Western Christian traditions have at least in some measure learned from their pasts the monstrous consequences of combining church and state power and put up barriers against it.

25

As it is in your dreams Fred.

26

Ah yes, historical examples again. Why is it that no one can condemn Muslim extremism which is happening NOW because someone may have done something similarly bad 500 years ago. There is only one source of this violence and hatred and marrying of religion and politics and it is occurring everywhere around the world with regard to only one religion and that religion is Islam. Why must we look at what Christianity did to the Jews 500 years ago? Why cannot we simply and straightforwardly condemn this now? Where is the moral confusion?

As to Hitler, exactly what religion was he aligned with? The politics was there? What about communism? Where was the religion there? Or did in fact politics become as a religion to these socialists, communists and leftist idiots? See even now, the left is busy apologizing for the actions of these fanatics. Why?

27

I condemn Islamic terrorism. It’s currently the lowest form of barbarism which results when nationalism and religionism are melded into one, overwhelming rationalism, integrity and common sense.

“The Third Reich - Third Empire was the official designation for the Nazi regime in Germany that lasted from January 1933 to May 1945. Presumably it was the successor of the medieval and early modern Holy Roman Empire, which ran approximately from 800 to 1806, also called the First Reich and the subsequent German Empire, or Second Reich, which lasted from 1871 to 1918.”

“Israel Gershoni of Tel Aviv University has shown through his scholarship that the liberal mainstream of Egyptian society roundly condemned fascism. It simply isn’t true that Arabs were Nazis or Nazi sympathizers in any numbers. Those who did support Germany mostly did so in ignorance of what Nazism stood for, and mainly as a counterweight to British imperial power in the Middle East.”

http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/have-arabs-or-muslims-always-hated.html

28

Israel clearly is a part of the tensions in the region. When Israel’s army began a bloody drive to force the Palestinians from their lands it worsened an already insecure area. Obviously many Muslims want the Palestinians to return, and not for the good of the Palestinians. In every serious negotiation the topic of Israel is brought up again and again, and in talking to Muslims (especially some of the parties my friends invited me to) Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians and the West’s, specifically the US’s, support for Israel really bothers them. Osama’s support for the Palestinians is a good illustration of how terrorist groups will use an unrelated cause to gain support for their own (just like Osama’s support for the Iraqi people though he allegedly wanted to replace Saddam with someone else). Poverty is just as much to blame as anything else for terrorism, and when someone is desperate he will try anything. Being brainwashed that you will score with dozens of virgins is also a significant incentive for young men to blow up buses full of children, women, etc. who are the ‘enemy.’
Has Bush really done much good for the US economy, however, now that our grandchildren will be paying off the debt for the war? Is the dollar’s slide in value really unrelated to a belief that he will spend even more? These are also good questions to ask.

29

I swear sbmoor:

You are not really a true poster but the ultimate manifestation of my ideal mindless leftist who just keeps making a satire of that side’s views. You really must be one of the conservative posters on this forum who is just trying to make my day…

Why then did not the Israelis just sweep all the Palestinians out and kick them out. It was done to 12 million Germans after World War II. Surely the Israeli Army could have massacred a few hundred thousand and kicked a few hundred thousand more out. That was the extent of the population back then. Why didn’t they just as Nike says "do it?

I will assume that we have now jumped to those exiled? Those that left did so on their own volition. Israel rarely forced anyone to leave or flee.

Gosh, first color me surprised that you get invited anywhere. Then, my goodness, it really bothers your friends. So f***ing what? Do you want to hear what my vegetable lady says about China? or how about my taxi cab driver and his views on France? Or better yet, wanna hear about what my Filipino maid thinks of the Scott and Laci Peterson trial? No doubt utterly fascinating to some but I could not give one toss of a fig.

Yeah. Funny that. Almost like Osama was trying to exploit a totally unrelated matter to gain supporters for his dubious motives. Funny how some people can see through that though while others cannot. Also most amusing was Osama’s original manifesto where he mentions the loss of Spain and Portugal as his main motivators and NOT Israel. Interesting huh? But he did catch on when he realized that this would gain him the support of the mindless left. Reading your post it looks like he won over yet another intellectual giant to the cause. haha

Yup. Heard this old chestnut trotted out quite a bit but unfortunately, those that were involved in 911 were all upper middle class, well educated Saudis and Arabs, not the poor and downtrodden. They had everything in life and chose this nihilistic pattern. Sounds more to me like spoiled French university students posing and posturing rather than truly desperate. Also, many Palestinians who kill themselves are either shamed women who are going to be killed in honor killings so they retrieve honor by dying for the cause or young men who are brainwashed into doing so by their local religious leader.

I seriously doubt that the prospect of 72 virgins is really what motivates these actors. They are taught and instilled with so much hatred that they believe that they are striking a blow against evil. Unfortunately, they are manipulated by people like Arafat who just want to stay in power. Peace and prosperity do not long leave leaders like Arafat in power and how else will he continue to be able to siphon off millions and billions without chaos?

Now, we are on to Bush and the economy. Does this brain get any simpler than this? First of all, the war in Iraq is costing us about US$60 billion per year and after nearly two years the total with what we are spending in Afghanistan and the fight on terror in the region is count it up US$120 billion. Ergo, in a US$2.2 trillion dollar economy, you have US$60 billion per year. That makes it what? 3.5 percent of our total budget. I am glad, however, that you are interested in talking about budget deficits and cutting unnecessary waste. Consider than that we have spent US$7 trillion on social programs with absolutely no benefit from the time they were implemented. Poverty rates did not drop. Single family rates rose. Poverty rose. Educational standards dropped. Now, we are axing these programs and the opposite is occuring. Single family rates are dropping, teen pregnancy is dropping, black povery rates are dropping. So are you telling me that you think this US$7 trillion is nothing but the US$120 billion for Afghanistan, Iraq and fighting terrorists within the region is not?

I’lll be the judge of what is or is not a good question to ask if you do not mind. Yes, the dollar is dropping. So? The dollar has been at these levels before? It has been much higher before. The world has adapted. I assure you that should we have another Democrat in the White House and should the US dollar be where it is now, nary a word will be spoken, kinda like how the price of oil is back down to around $43 per barrel and no one is talking about oil prices anymore, why it seems since Nov. 3 after the election was over. Strange isn’t it?

30

Hobbes:

Admit it. YOU are sbmoor aren’t you! Stop it I tell you. It is just too easy! haha

31

After being 0-for-10 on Iraq and sinking fast I’d be inclined to be at least at least a little humble if I were a neoconservative.

Not them, though. The hubris that made them rush into Iraq without a real plan or a real understanding seems bottomless.

More news from the front:

“So basically, this war helped us make a transition from a secular country being run by a dictator to a chaotic country being run by a group of religious clerics. Now, can anyone say ‘theocracy in sheeps clothing’?”

“It’s like we’ve turned into another Palestine- occupation, bombings, refugees, death. Sometimes I’ll be watching the news and the volume will be really low. The scene will be of a man, woman or child, wailing in front of the camera; crying at the fate of a body lying bloodily, stiffly on the ground- a demolished building in the background and it will take me a few moments to decide the location of this tragedy- Falloojeh? Gaza? Baghdad?”

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

32

Spook:

How are we 0 for 10 on Iraq?

Did 20,000 US soldiers die in the invasion? No. To date with all accidents that number is 1,300 in 20 months.

Did it take three months to overthrow the regime? No. Three weeks.

Was Saddam captured? Yes.

Were Saddams sons taken out? Yes.

Of the 55 top leaders, how many remain uncaptured or unkilled? Six.

Has there been a massive humanitarian crisis? Nope.

Was the museum looted? Nope.

Were there massive refugee flows? Nope.

Did power get transferred? Yup.

Did the Iraqis agree on an interim constitution? Yup.

Are the elections scheduled? Yup.

Was Fallujah taken out? Yup.

Is power at or exceeding prewar levels? Yup.

How about water? Yup.

What about the economy? Just look at all the new cars and consumer items flooding into Iraq. Most interested statistic that I read recently is that Arab money is flooding into the country. There is a building boom in Baghdad right now. How can that be if the country is a disaster and people expect it to end up like Beirut? I mean if you expect a civil war you don’t build buildings that are going to get destroyed right?

Has there been a civil war? Nope.

What about Sadr? Sidelined.

What about the Kurdish areas? Completely quiet.

What about the Shia areas? Relatively stable.

What about wmds? Wrong about their existence but not wrong about the intent to set up the programs once sanctions ended therefore the threat assessment was essentially the same.

So, having a bit of trouble understanding where the 0 for 10 is spook. Care to help me out here. Wanna discuss all the dire predictions for Afghanistan too?

Then, if this is such a serious mess, why don’t you share with me how the other glorious US and UN adventures are doing in the following countries:

Haiti
Cyprus
Bosnia
Kosovo
Cote d’Ivoire
Sudan
Somalia
Congo
Rwanda
Burundi

I mean if one can be expected to wave one’s wand and solve all thee problems in a second, then what are your assessments of these programs? No comment? Why not?

It is coming up on two years and that is when I will give my final assessment on Iraq. Did we make mistakes? Some. Were we overconfident? Yes. Will we ultimately be successful? I believe so. Again, if we really want to put pressure on the Sunnis to behave and cooperate, why don’t we just threaten to leave. That means the Shias will be there waiting. How many Shias did the Sunnis kill again? 1 million? 2 million? How many hundreds of thousands of Kurds did the Sunnis kill? Sure you want us out of the picture?

Be of good cheer spookie. Soon, things may start gelling into a nice mold. I know that must be difficult for you to accept given that it has indirect benefits for the Jews and all but try to think of the Iraqi people first spookie. Does it matter if the Jews benefit as long as Iraq is stable and moving toward democracy. Can you really be that mean-spiritedly anti-Semitic? (and for all the “overly intelligent” word smiths here, I mean this in the traditional sense of the word: anti-Jewish. I am fully aware that the Arabs are Semitic as well).

33

Well, you’re 10-for-10 on straw men, no doubt.

Meanwhile, back in the real world where Iraq is generally regarded as a tipping quagmire today:

WMD? Nyet.

Proven operational links between Saddam and Al Qaeda? Nyet

Enough troops in Iraq to do the job? Nyet

Mission accomplished: terrorism in Iraq bagged? Try taking a stroll in Baghdad today without getting killed by a terrorist.

Coalition of the Willing? When was the last time a soldier from other than the U.S. or Britain was willing to take a bullet?

Iraqis welcoming U.S. troops with rose petals? Showered with RPG’s is more like it.

Self-financing Iraqi occupation? Yeah, sure.

Prosperity and normalcy restored in Iraq? You should read a little more “Baghdad Burning” and less Wall Street Journal if you really want to know the truth on the ground in Iraq.

Iraqi sovereignty restored? Ask the Iraqi people who’s really in charge today.

“We won’t occupy Iraq a day longer than necessary.”? A day longer than forever is still forever.

Regime change? Will it really have been worth all the death and destruction just to end up replacing a secular tyrant with an Iranian-style theocracy?

Stability and peace in the Middle East? Most of the Iraqi soldiers who fight with the U.S. today against Shiite and Sunni insurgents are Kurds, sowing the seeds of long-term civil war in Iraq when the U.S. tries to withdraw behind the scenes into its ‘enduring’ bases.