increased muslim immigration to Europe
- It’s good for Europe
- It’s bad for Europe
- Their religion is irrelevant
- It’s already too late
0 voters
Ever increasing muslim immigration to Europe. Often talked about on this forum, so lets put it to the vote.
increased muslim immigration to Europe
0 voters
Ever increasing muslim immigration to Europe. Often talked about on this forum, so lets put it to the vote.
It’s bad for Europe, but I don’t think it’s too late.
(Too late for what, exactly)?
Fenlander,
If you are interested in the topic of Muslim immigration in Europe, I recommend you read Mark Steyn’s America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It .
Steyn’s central points in the above-mentioned book are as follows:
In the ongoing conflict between the West and Islam, both the demographics and the will to power favor the Islamists. That a country like Spain, with a birth rate of 1.15 children per adult women, will extinguish itself in a few generations, while immigrants from countries such as Pakistan (birth rate 4.53) will move in to fill the vacuum.
That as an aggressive, unassimilated minority edges closer to a majority (as in France, with an estimated 30% Muslim population in the under 20 age group), the character of the democratic institutions will become more closely aligned with Islamic law and culture.
That the post-Christian welfare state is largely to blame for the pessimism and failures of will demonstrated by Europe.
That America represents the primary exception to this trend, if only by degree, and that only a concerted effort to save our society stands a chance of reversing these trends.
Dunno about the rest of Europe, but I think a fair swap is that the Mozzers can have England as long as the English can have Morocco and Southern Spain. More than a fair swap I’d say. Hmmm, Leicester or Andalusia…? Tough one. Leave us that bit of France near Italy. It’s quite nice. And Brittany too.
People are people. We’re all equal. (70 years ago it was the Jews who were “different” and “threatening”.)
[quote=“JAS”]Fenlander,
If you are interested in the topic of Muslim immigration in Europe, I recommend you read Mark Steyn’s America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It .
Steyn’s central points in the above-mentioned book are as follows:
In the ongoing conflict between the West and Islam, both the demographics and the will to power favor the Islamists. That a country like Spain, with a birth rate of 1.15 children per adult women, will extinguish itself in a few generations, while immigrants from countries such as Pakistan (birth rate 4.53) will move in to fill the vacuum.
That as an aggressive, unassimilated minority edges closer to a majority (as in France, with an estimated 30% Muslim population in the under 20 age group), the character of the democratic institutions will become more closely aligned with Islamic law and culture.
That the post-Christian welfare state is largely to blame for the pessimism and failures of will demonstrated by Europe.
That America represents the primary exception to this trend, if only by degree, and that only a concerted effort to save our society stands a chance of reversing these trends.
amazon.com/America-Alone-End … 0895260786[/quote]
Interesting. Thanks for the info. Well for me I think Islam and Christianity are both foreign religions to the British Isles.
I will check out the reviews of the book you recommend and may buy it.
Another narrow escape of Christian, God-fearing white folk from the clutches of the heathens, circa 1899:
The Yellow Peril
Actually Chris, much as I detest and worry about Islam, I think you may have something there. On this forum and others you will sometimes hear people decrying how the secular society has eroded religion. Well when it’s a religion like Islam which talks of beheading non-believers and calls them (us) “nasjr” whic is often translated as “impure” but whose meaning is more accurately defined as “filth”(open to correction by any Arabic speakers but there’s a reason we’re not allowed to touch their holy book), you should pray it gets eroded and quickly.
And there are some signs this is happening. For example if you look at “Newsweek” magazine of 10 Feb last there is an article on how churces in Europe are being turned to other uses, profane and secular. The secular one is, as you might guess, that some of them are becoming mosques. The article starts mentioning about how Moslem congregations (if that’s the right word) are rising and of course, they need places of worship. So this sends a frisson up your spine if you believe in the inevitable takeover of Europe. However, this is much alleviated by the (to me at least) cheering news at the end of the article that most of them have been finding that their congregations once they’ve won the battle to open the mosque, start to decline quite rapidly. In other words, Islam appears to be no more resistant to erosion than any of the other religions.
In addition to this, as most of you know, once people get educated, they tend to limit the sizes of their families. And again, Moslems are no more inclined to live in poverty with large numbers of children than us. The first generation certainly, but then the next one cuts down quickly. And irony of ironies, one of the most successful trends in birth control in recent years has been Iran where the birth rate is rapidly approaching that of Europe. There is also the story of Colonel Gaddhafi who once, at an Arabic conference, exhorted the other contries to expand their populations. The other delegates, it is said, roared with laughter, as if they didn’t have enough trouble feeding the mouths they already have.
So yes, we will have 30 or so million people in Europe in the coming decades of Arabic/Turkish Moslem descent. The question is how many of them are going to be Moslem, even nominally. The Internet already has several websites by Moslem apostates who if anything, detest Islam even more than many westerners. The Islamists have tried to shut them down by any means possible and have always failed. Tthey have also failed to get Sharia law established in any form in several places. They have also failed to shake people’s resolve through the various terrorist incidents since 9/11.
So let’s not be too defeatist; once people get religious and secular freedom they often find it to their liking. So my hope is we’ll have a group of people among us who will enrich our culture with worthwhile aspects of their own much as the Indians, Chinese and others have already done, while quietly dropping the obnoxious elements. [/b]
Can some of the apologists for the Mad Mullahs show me where Jews or Christians or Any Other Religion advocates going around murdering people on the basis of their religion?
Why don’t “moderate Muslims” through this scum out of their communities when they start talking about killing all non-Muslims? Is it fear? Or do they actually agree with this shit?
This sort of promotion of murder on a religious basis is illegal in the UK and most Western countries. Why aren’t these people in jail? If the British won’t enforce their own laws then they are just encouraging religious bigots.
Can someone clarify whether it is legal in the USA to stand up and incite people to kill others on a relgious basis? Is that protected under the 1st Amendment? So I can stand in public and say “kill all Jews!” or as a religious leader “kill all the infidels!” is that OK?
I believe you could find such people in Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia. Of course you could argue that their motivation is not strictly religious, but arises from conflicts between identity groups for which religion is the most visible marker.
As for why they’re not denounced–well, how often do YOU go around denouncing stuff? (Issued any press releases lately?)
Oh please, I don’t recall bomb strapped Jews blowing people up, decapitate Buddist monks in Thailand, massacre hindus in bangladesh, go on a rampage on some cartoon. Never heard of Jews taking hostages then decapitate them and distribute videos of their horrendous acts.
Jews represents the most prosperous and talented groups in Europe back in the 1930s while today’s Muslims in Europe are ranked close to the bottom of all indicators of education and social achievements.
Jews were attacked across much of Western and Eastern Europe at worse rates than at any time since the rise of the Nazis in the 1930s, are Muslims attacked at the same rate and verocity today? Jews in the 1930s were a minority everywhere and had no country they could call their own but Muslims today in contrast count more than one billion individuals. Jews in Western countries do not constitute a terror threat, never have and never will.
The comparison between Muslims today and Jews 70 years ago is ludicrous.
"Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES (Dec 2, 1948,signed by Albert Einstein among others):
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the Freedom Party (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants, 240 men, women, and children, and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a Leader State is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism."
(signed)
Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Symour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Orlinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sager, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Schoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Znger, Irma Wolpe, Stefan Wolpe
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
The poll results are very one sided at the moment.
JTFC, Spook, it is Chinese New Years… Give the Evil Bent on World Domination Jews a bit of slack. Resume once the holiday is over. Deal? Especially since there will be so much to discuss what with the Jews working to egg on an attack on Iran…
If you have a problem with the quoted letter to the editor you should take it up with Albert Einstein, who helped write it. Besides, your fellow Forumosans asked for such feedback:
The larger issue though is as gao bo han ably pointed out in the related “Pro-Muslim?” thread:
[quote=“gao bo han”]Calling someone an “Islamophobe” is a clever way to stifle all debate and criticism of Islam and jihad. I know lots of people who have been labelled Islamophobes, including myself, and yet none of us have a “phobia” in the clinical sense of the term any more so than people who oppose gay rights have a “phobia” of gays and lesbians.
The terms Islamophobe and homophobe are nothing more than linguistic weapons used to stifle dissent.[/quote]
In other words, to imply that someone is motivated by anti-Semitism rather than honest disagreement is ‘nothing more than a linguistic weapon used to’ attempt to stifle debate and criticism.
Oh no…did somebody let spook start on ‘Da Jews!’ again?
A guaranteed… :threadjacked:
My view is that we are all just human beings – that seeing ourselves as “Jew”, “Christian”, “Muslim”, “Communist”, “Capitalist”, “White”, “Black” etcetera just creates artificial divisions in our minds.
This artificial “otherness” that we insist on creating among ourselves leads to nothing but endless conflicts.
The only way that being “jew”, “christian”, “muslim” actually exists is as a cultural/philosophical overlay on our common humanity. This overlay may impart color, flavor, vividness to an individual or group of individuals but the core humanity remains the same.
Sorry, not in this century. Unless the Judeo-Christian sect in question has some kind of psychoactive ingriedient amongst its’ rituals.
This IS The Crux Of The Biscuit. If some nutters were congregating in my neighborhood, right in the middle of a public square, demonstrating about their right to cut people’s heads off, I would be on a overlooking rooftop. With a few squaddies, lobbing stinkbombs.
Especially if I belonged to the same ethnic or regional group as the main offenders.
Same goes with the Blackshirts. With whom these bored young Islamo-thugs demonstrating in public centres share much of the same atavistic, tendentious polemical rhetoric.
Sharia must be resisted at all costs.
Hyperventilating nonsense must be resisted at all costs.
[quote=“spook”]My view is that we are all just human beings – that seeing ourselves as “Jew”, “Christian”, “Muslim”, “Communist”, “Capitalist”, “White”, “Black” etcetera just creates artificial divisions in our minds.
This artificial “otherness” that we insist on creating among ourselves leads to nothing but endless conflicts.
The only way that being “jew”, “christian”, “muslim” actually exists is as a cultural/philosophical overlay on our common humanity. This overlay may impart color, flavor, vividness to an individual or group of individuals but the core humanity remains the same.[/quote]
Agree with what you say. However would you of said the same thing about the Nazis ?
Your view is true but is the ideal world. I believe in treating all equally, unless they start infringing on my right to choose the way I want to live my life or the way other people want to live their lives. Do many muslims infringe on the rights of non-muslims ?