I think you need to get a lawyer and send a letter to that one person environmental group. I saw the pics on TV and they have a point about the ramshackle nature of the buildings there, they did show your place with what looked like the pollution seemingly pouring straight into the water. It could also simply be some people are pushing to improve local environmental standards. So yes it’s not fair to have trial by television, the good thing is the media have a very short attention span…get your docs in order, your lawyer on the case and you’ll be fine.
Uradacous I understand. You are right. I was speaking with my heart. My brain cell tells me I can not successfully do it. My money is not unlimited. Their money virtually is (at least by my standards). And they can report whatever they like along the way. In a western country I would have a chance with a very clear cut case on some things. But here…
But their other effects are bordering on beyond belief. This afternoon I was given the notice. Tomorrow afternoon no more balcony or the room above it…
Insane. All because of F^$%&king TVBS. Who will of course be here to film it…
Apparently they will knock down our balcony. And the room above it. And lots of other buildings near by. It maters not that the balcony has been there for decades and that it survived the the 8/8 typhoon etc. They have suddenly declared it “a dangerous new building”. And if TVBS says it is true… it must be. But this is Taiwan.
One thing does confuse me though. I was (today) provided with a pic from 1996. By the GongWuJu. It shows the balcony in it. But they are writing that it is totally new, like TVBS who claim it was just built recently… Even by their standards this seems confused to me.
Just a thought, you might use the, “Taiwan is making it difficult for foreigners to do business here.” angle. It’s a bit of a stretch, but might help.
Taiwan is really sensitive about how their business ethics are portrayed to the world, because they absolutely need foreign trade connections to survive in the shadow of China. China’s had a lot of bad press about how they do business (anyone read One Billion Customers?http://www.onebillioncustomers.com/) and for Taiwan to be competitive it would help if they branded themselves as the ‘reasonable China’ hahahahaa
Anyways though, I say advertise on tealit or something for amateur documentary film maker and try to interest them in your story. Always have a camera rolling and make sure you mention multiple times that your film will be shown to an ‘international audience’ at film festivals a b and c.
Or maybe these sort of tactics wouldn’t work here— I guess that’s what I’d do in America.
Best of luck though, it’s bullshit what they’re putting you through.
You need to get a legal professional to help you through this, try and get an injunction.
Just an idea.
Put together a coherent rebuttal. Place it on YouTube. Have Chinese words with it.
Send notice of this to your countries reps here (NZ?) and tell them of your persecution.
Send notice of this to TVBS and the person in the “enviro” group who did the hit piece on your place.
Raise the level of media awareness as high as possible.
IMO, I think if you dig deep enough into this you will uncover a developer who wants your location. Just my thoughts about it.
Also, you need a “spokes person.” Preferably Taiwanese who looks like a successful business person. This might be tough as they would run the risk of being accused of selling out to the “foreigner.” But it would add great weight to your claims of unwarranted interference with your business.
A business which not only provides jobs for locals but also brings people to your area and thus contributes to the overall economy.
Have a festival to raise awareness of this crap being foisted onto you and your business.
Does anyone have any links to the Chinese media stories? Searching for 海洋天堂 歐風餐館 doesn’t bring up anything. Thanks.
Yes, this seems to me the only logical course of action. Take all the documentation you have to a good local lawyer, and ask them what your chances are of getting an injunction against the demolition, and also your chances of subsequently successfully having a court find that your property should be “grandfathered in” as a pre-existing structure (if there is indeed a law or policy in place in Kaohsiung allowing this). If the lawyer thinks there is a good chance (what is a “good chance” depends on how risk-averse you yourself are – are you willing to fight for a 70% chance, 50% chance, etc.), then ask the lawyer what they would charge to see your case through these stages. Try to negotiate flat fees rather than hourly rates for each stage of the case. It sounds like you need to act fast, so see if you can get the lawyer on the phone to the government office that issued you the notice first thing with the message that you are seeking an injunction. (A lawyer will also be able to tell you what the proper procedure for seeking such an injunction is – whether it is through an administrative appeal against the disposition to demolish the structure, or through some other procedure.)
Good luck!
Try to get TVBS on your side against the government:
“Honest foreigner who has invested in Taiwan and provide work for local Taiwanese and loves Taiwan more than his home country is fighting against corrupt and incompentent government!!! He has bought a place with confidence in the Taiwanese law and officials!!! He helped to open Taiwan for its international relations!!! Now he is fighting for the future of his !!!Taiwanese!!! wife, children and !!! Taiwanese workers!!! The incompetent government which has known any circumstances since years but did not informed him!!! Many Taiwanese workers and families will loose their income!!! because of the incompentent government!!!
The honest forerigner who has paid taxes and wages for decades is now punished by incompentent officials!!! If you have you have done some mistakes, you will make good but you have not intentionally broken the law!!!”
TVBS likes this bullshit, find a worker who is willing to cry in front of TV.
He’s already received a demolition notice. It’s no longer primarily a media problem, it’s a legal one. Getting a competent lawyer to appeal against the demolition notice immediately is the only sensible course of action.
Today we have what is effectively a one day reprieve because of the typhoon.
Yes, we have been talking to lawyers. This stuff is complicated to say the least.
We sought an injunction of sorts that apparently exists that would stop things if it had been issued before the “gongwen” notice but got the GongWen out so fast that it did not happen. Anyway I am meeting face to face with a lawyer first thing tomorrow.
More than one person has suggested that something is very fishy in that something that the notice to when the building was meant to be knocked down (ie today) allowed for less than 24 hours notice. Normally they operate at a snails speed. Even allowing for the TVBS pressuring them effect this does seem to be over the top to say the least. It is taking them longer to knock down a building that was the source of dengue fever in the same district and was reported in the media (but not as a big TVBS story I guess…) and is a government building.
Right now I have really all but given up hope of keeping the balcony for now but someone who should know the law for this (not a lawyer but a relevant government department worker) thought it was very possible to get what would effectively be a legal and almost physically indestructible solution to this.
My focus for now is preventing any future damage to my business (and home). I am looking at a number of other things like going to have every other document (eg business license, property use permit blah blah) that can be checked or mysteriously disappear checked and filming this etc.
Although the media focus was on my place now many “GongWen” notices about intent to knock down have been issued in the area (mine came earlier than most though I think). This has made some of the people near by who are on technically worse ground legally about the legality of their place regarding the land etc change their attitude. Some of the ones who were just in hope of the whole thing blowing over before seem to be turning to my view that the lies in the media need to aggressively countered. Thankfully none of the locals seem to be blaming me for the troubles in the area even though the media focus was on me and they do see the media lies and the so called enviromental protection group as the cause. I am not a big conspiracy fan normally but although I have heard a few extreeme theories about what the real motivations of the “ChaiShan enviromental protection group” but I really don’t know. Some people think they really are people who think that they have the right to decide people should no one should be able to live in ChaiShan even though people have done so since pre-KMT and probably pre-Japanese days. Some people think some kind of business grab at the area but for complicated reasons I am not a big believer in that for this instance even though it would be my normal reaction to guess this first in Taiwan.
TVBS called into question the legality of the use of the land “ta na bu chu” (he didn’t/wouldn’t take it out). This sort of stuff makes it hard because it does not state I don’t have it. I do! But it implies it…
Hiker I would say the chance of TVBS getting on our side is as good as the chance that Chen ShuiBian will be the next KMT leader. They have spun the thing such that I am the devil. The chance that other media take it up in the other direction is huge. We are looking at doing a few things first like making a prepared media statement checked by a lawyer and sending it to basically all the media we can who with think might take it up.
Fitness the TVBS link on line is tvbs.com.tw/NEWS/NEWS_LIST.a … 830181345#
The content on the TV news was somewhat different but along the same lines. Note the place shown in the bottom right of the 3 pics that looks like it has fallen down is nothing to do with mine and was actually knocked down rather than fell down. The TV version had other things eg TVBS called into question the legality of the use of the land “ta na bu chu” (he didn’t/wouldn’t take it out) for the permit. This sort of stuff makes it hard because it does not state I don’t have it. I do! But it implies it and unfortunately people buy that…
I’d say good luck anyway. Some of those structures are really in a bad state, so it’s hard to call on what the motivation is…environmental protection or not.
The speed of the demolition schedule is too fast though, that’s what makes me suspicious.
Hi,
I know two reporters working for other channels (one at GTV did a piece on us opposing the demolition of the outdoor pool at Rong Xin Park in Taipei). I can get you their contact info tomorrow. I don’t promise they will take your story but it might give you a chance to be heard or to get more information about what is going on.
Headhoncho yes, the speed is very questionable. That the houses above us look in a bad state is true, but that the people who have lived there all their life in many cases should be kicked out because of it. Many of them are too poor to repair them. In many cases I don’t see how they are any more of a risk to the enviroment than many other places. Indeed when they are pulled down often what is left is just dumped there and remains for years. Great enviromental result that is. Note I have not seen anything from this so called enviromental group asking the government to clean up areas (which are mostly on government land) where things were pulled down in the past. That would surely be to the benifit of everyone (it would not even cost money, some of that material is worth money as scrap metal). Does make it a little suspicious about this group…
Thank you Asiababy for introduction offer. For now I am focusing on legal means applying to my place specifically and the other people here have been talking about what to do next but the typhoon has literally put a dampner on anything happening. I would much prefer that I am working with them than alone for that. I would be a 100 times stronger that way but I am not really the right person to do the organizing for that. I don’t even speak much Taiwanese and at least half the old people here (the population in the area is amazingly old on average) barely speak GuoYu (Mandarin).
We have sought at type of injunction based on an air photo of the area that can be applied for with the reason (being in a military area at the time permision is needed but this case would be considered good reason for this). Such a photo would be considered enough to prove that a balcony of the size our one is was there before and it is not just a very recent development. Unfortunately and bizzarely until we get this they can actually procceed with demolishing if they want but the weather is working very much in our favour and the lawyer has clued us up to other ways to slow things down and try to force some real research and checking.
That said even if I do win for now I can’t help but feel that one day I will loose. Maybe not soon. But sooner or later. If enough sh$%^t is thrown some of it sticks. We have been reported about a gazillion times in the last 3 years to different government bureaus. So long as we are reasonably successful I can not imagine it changing. Unfortunately this time we came up against better connected with media people or a slow media day or something. Ultimately I think we can win a battle but not the war. Those are won by TVBS or similar. I just hope I can go for long enough to get a reasonable portion of my money back (if we had never had the 8/8 typhoon a year ago we would have been there now, but that sent us backwards a lot). I know that many people on this forum have been here long enough to understand how things work (or as the case may be don’t work) here but let this whole mess be a good example to those who think of investing here. I thought of myself as long term foreigner and I was able to get through a lot of problems here in the past. I may still do so this time with some luck and good help. But ultimately who wants to spend their life batling BS. And in a country where it seems that trial by TeleVision BullSh*t is how things happen always remember it can be you even when you least expect and have done nothing to provoke it. When I took over Escape I understood their were risks like this. It was a calculated risk. At the time my ex-girlfriend who knew me perhaps better than anyone in the world didn’t want me to take on Escape. She understood all these potential problems. Her father’s business had also once tanked in complicated and unlucky circumstances. Fortunately unlike him I have no real debt.
A little over a year ago before the big typhoon it looked like the cards had fallen very much in my favour. But we went backwards big time when the business level took a big dive and we still had a 600 k a month wage bill etc. When I first took the place on I knew it was a little crazy but I was loathe to put down what I regarded as a once in a life time opportunity to get my hands on such a place. Originally when looking for a place to live in the area I had no intention of opening a restaurant. I knew what a competitive business it can be. But it was the only obvious thing to do with the place other than living there and I had spent more than I would otherwise have liked to. Many of my customers for my first business were restaurants and I have gotten to know a few of them over the years. Unfortunately I did not work my first business so well in the last 4 years because my time and monetary capital was so tied up with the restaruant. As a result of this and that the market for the products that company sells has also fallen while the number of competitors has risen it is no where near as strong as it once was. Recently I have seen a thread on Forumosa about people retiring here. Obviously that is a lot less risky than running a prominent business. But at the same time something like this has made me feel so insecure about things that I don’t think I could ever do that even if I thought I had a nice place to stay… Rant over for now other than to say thank you to all those who have supported us.
Kieran, if you remember we met in January when I came by to interview you. I’m really sorry this has happened to you as I formed a good opinion of both you and the restaurant when I was there.
One thing I have not heard so far is mention of the lizhang (village chief) and your local legislator. Now of course you will need to get your neighbors to talk to such people but it’s the normal Taiwanese way to handle matters. Elections are coming. Kicking a bunch of people out of their homes is not going to look good (remind him of Dapu and the evicted farmers and the public outcry over that).
I’ve met a lot of government administrators involved in tourism and one thing they usually complain about is their inability to do what is being done to you: tear down buildings they want torn down. And these are usually shithole crumbling places. The reason: the owner always gets the politicians involved and everything grinds to a halt.
You need to play the legal angle but it can’t be the only game. Land use laws are changing and as we saw last year thousands of families were removed from their homes because they are now deemed unsafe. Hate to say it but from what I saw the entire hamlet you are in probably wouldn’t pass a proper environmental assessment. Certainly not in any developed country and certainly not if Taiwan ever gets its land use bill passed. Whether there are worse offenders around is not really the issue.
So if this is really an environmental issue I think you need to go along with it, stress that as a westerner, especially a New Zealander you want nothing more than a cleaner Taiwan. But you and the others played by the rules and bought property legally and need to be compensated. There are lots of cases where even squatters get paid to leave areas.
As for whether this is a conspiracy to steal land, I doubt it. The speed at which this happened was surprising but possibly someone at the gongwenju panicked and signed off on having your deck removed and other lots demolished. Once a measure like this is approved it usually gets down very fast. Elections are coming and maybe someone wants to take credit for cleaning up Caoshan and thinks the opposite of what I said above: a few old voters lost in the shuffle won’t matter much.
Anyway, hang in there. I’m praying for the best.
That sucks. The swanboat operators at Bitan – all totally illegal – have been given three YEARS to wind up their business!
For the longer term, would it be possible for you to somehow fulfill a need in the community? I mean, a non-food need? Are there underprivileged kids who need Engrish lessons? Can you donate food leftovers to feed local shut-ins? (The GIO did an article on a police station that is doing that.)
It is much harder to evict a colony of do-gooder nuns than a crack house. I assume your situation falls somewhere in the middle of this continuum 
but you take my meaning.
Exactly. The teahouses of Maokong, the hot springs of Lushan, the…
The poor and disenfranchised tend to get the short shift. But sandman if you want an idea of what the hamlet is like imagine a village running down the undeveloped park of Bitan across the water. Right down to the water. That’s how steep this place is.
Like I said, the speed of the eviction or destruction is unfair, but if I were naguoning I would be thinking about moving even if he wins for now. Sooner or later, probably sooner a land use bill is going to pass and places like this are going to be closed.
I second Mucha Man’s suggestion of trying to talk (through your neighbors in a similar position) to your local lizhang and leglislator to try to slow things down at the same time as you are pursuing legal recourse.
Yes Robert, I do remember you. Actually I am Australian, not a Kiwi, not that it worries me much either way. I can completely believe that someone or some people at the GongWuJu panicked. They were being acused of corruption (which in my case they were certainly innocent of). Incompetence is another matter however…
Do worse offenders exist or not is an issue in my mind in that they focus on here and not bigger problems can only bring into question the sincerity of the group.
This is definately WAY beyond the control of the LiZhang. I heard one of his own places was cut down in part recently. I have spoken with him before for other things but the bottom line is he is really not near powerful enough to control things now.
My objections to the whole situation beyond my own place are numerous. Yes, a lot things about the place could be improved enviromentally. The whole plumbing, pipes, water situation is a mess. But that really should not be the responsibility of those in the village. It should be a city government thing. Unfortunately and one of the things that really annoys me and makes me question the motivations is the way that things have been done. Did the enviromental organization ever come and talk to us or the people near me about whatever problems they saw with my place (perceived or real)? No. Did they propose any real solution other than kick people out of an area that people have been in since before Japanese rule days? No. Were people allowed any chance to fix any safety problems with a warning? No. If you look at what has happened when places have been cut down here in the past the result is not good. Ie they just leave a huge mess… Of course I am biased on this one but from a tourism perspective hmmm I am not sure cutting my place down would be a great idea. Something like 40% of my turnover comes from people who are from outside of Kaohsiung city or county (and this includes counting foreigners who live in Kaohsiung as local). Looking at it another way I would love to have a cleaner area near here. Even if people believe no other reason, because I have a pretty vested business interest in that is I am sure reason enough to believe this. Actually I would happily pay a reasonable tax that was used to clean up the area. I completely agree the way the pipes, water disposal etc in the area is terrible but some things are really not under my control or that of the other people living in the village.
From a legal perspective it is important to understand that that the right to own land and the right to have a building on it are not the same. So far they have not tried to grab our land (or that of anyone else). I have tried to get things started on documenting super well our right to use the land. In a worse case if I did decide to continue I could probably operate like a place in YangMingShan called WuDingShang (I think the English name is at the top). I know it is also difficult to get a new building permit there. They used some strong tents etc and nice garden feel etc. But of course I don’t believe I should have to go that way… And I feel they could still try other ways of putting us out of business. Although with that their are easier come backs than with a building (eg just trade using an English name and get a new business license with a different Chinese name etc).
As to ironlady’s suggestion I understand it and that is a good and logical suggestion. Actually I don’t think the people here are so negative about me. Some of them at least get along with me quite well. Many don’t know me. But by virtue of being the only foreigner with any real command at all of Taiwanese (ok, mine is bad, but better than nothing but they seem to like what little I have) and pretty OK mandarin a lot of them have heard me talk etc unlike most or all of the other dozen or so foreigners out here. The real problem for me is outside people and the spin the media puts on it is more important than what is actually true.
The squatters things can have some aspects that are a lot more complex than some foreigners understand. Some of them have been “squatting” for generations. It goes back to problems with land recording when the KMT first came here and people avoiding tax from what they thought was a corrupt reigeme etc etc so to not compensate such people would be unreasonable.
You have to love the city councils and various other government agencies. Apparently, these bozos can swing a demolition permit faster than the high court can. Laughable.
The short notice tells me that there is definitely more to this story. It doesn’t even leave enough time to initiate a legal defense. More to this story. Not enough information to put a finger on it.
I frequented said establishment on a few occasions. It’s a bit remote but I like it. It seemed well run to me. Shame.