quote:- bri
Originally posted by bri:Eg “There’s a fire in Room 35!!!” “My God, that’s the room I’m sleeping in!”[/QB]
bri-N,
it would seem to me that a more simple and natural response to finding out that your room is on fire would be:
JESUS CHRIST MOTHER MARY OF ALL LIVING THINGS BIG AND SMALL, THAT’S MY ROOM (THAT IS BURNING DOWN AS I AM SPEAKING SO ELOQUENTLY AND WITH CORRECT GRAMMATICAL USAGE)!!
something like that. this one is a freebie courtesy of the murphathesaurus.
Brian, the thread is titled “Myths about the English Language.” I didn’t realize we were only discussing grammar.
Anyway, from your post it seems you think grammar rules are stupid but spelling and punctuation rules are not.
I noticed a press release from AP recently announcing that its latest style book no longer regards split infinitives as incorrect grammar, so there’s hope for all you language rebels yet!
getting back to the biggest myths in the english language:
the biggest myth is that which involves paul bunyan and babe the blue ox. clearly the whole thing is a fabrication because theres just no damned way a man or a big blue cow could make the grand canyon because if youve ever been there you know just how gdamned big it is and any red moose would have to be jeez like what- a billion feet tall and sh1t and wed have found his carcass by now certainly and i think it woulda been pretty obvious inasmuch as a billion foot tall carcass is bound to attract a whole flock of birds and the stink would have carried so far and wide that someone would have gotten wise on it and someone would have written a book
and johnny applepucker isnt really that great either
In some ways, I do agree with you, musasa. It’s great if you are wanting to express yourself verbally or through some internet chat program and I’d prefer that in everyday conversation anyway.
Hell, you could even use it in writing novels, publications, etc. For example, I was taught that long sentences weren’t correct either but take a look at JRR Tolkein’s Lord of the Rings. One sentence goes for almost 2 pages. But the trick is that you’d have to “show” your good writing skills in the first place.
On the other hand, wolf is right.
I was tutoring maths as a 2nd job before I came here to Taiwan. When I started tutoring, I was amazed at how much the quality of maths had dropped in the 5 short years since I left high school to the time I started tutoring. One of my students was in his final year of high school, studying the most difficult level of maths and he didn’t even know his times table.
From this tutoring, I found that there are only 2 other … err … “subjects” that have dropped as much as maths. English and research skills.
Just 'caz ya used ta speaken one way doesn’t make it raight! The way one speaks is a very good indication of one’s education and… uuhhh … “social level”.
Wow! Musasa had another cow and I wasn’t even around.
I’ll have to agree with the Sandman and the Murphattarian here. Both have very strong points. BTY, punctuation is a part of grammar for those who don’t know it.
Nice ploy, Wolf. All it took was just a little jab here and little poke there to make him throw a tizzy. (at least, that’s what I think your intent was…)
I feel that the English language is like a recipe. A real cook doesn’t follow the recipe to the letter, but adds their own flavor to it. You won’t, however, see someone on a cooking show making a dish without following the recipe to some form and most cookbooks have a specific recipe to follow. And just like those learning to cook, trying to learn English without a recipe makes it impossible. Only after getting down the basics and the rules can one season their language with non-standard elements. This is why grammar, syntax, pragmatics, and other aspects of the English language are necessary.
I came across these suggestions…
Writing Techniques:
** Avoid alliteration. Always.
** Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.
** Avoid cliches like the plague. (They’re old hat.)
** Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are unnecessary.
** Contractions aren’t necessary.
** Foreign words and phrases are not apropos.
** One should never generalize.
** Comparisons are as bad as clich
First saw that one about 30 years ago, but LOL anyway!
From the point of view of linguistics, if a speech pattern is commonly used by native speakers, whether it sounds “good” or “bad,” it is technically “correct.” So if you’re from the deep South of the USA, and say “Y’all ain’t my friends anymore,” that is perfectly correct by linguistic standards. Many English “teachers” will still mark it incorrect though!
I don’t claim to be an expert in linguistics, but to say that “Y’all ain’t my friends anymore” is obviously just plain incorrect English. The correct way to say that would be “Y’all ain’t my friends NO MORE.” Please get your facts straight lest you erode the great Southern language tradition.
DDE11678,
Perhaps, but do you think that that guy standing in front of a roomful of 10-year-olds in trying to teach linguistics? Explain the “technical correctness” of using dialect to your Chinese boss at the English-language cram school…
Is this a forum for prescriptivist grammarians, or what???
Please.
Next thing, you’ll be complaining about split infinitives…
I’m asking you all to kindly cease and desist!!
Thank you!
The Thirteen Gremlins of Grammar:
1 Correct speling is essential.
2 Don’t use no double negatives.
3 Verbs has got to agree with their subjects.
4 Don’t write run-on sentences they are hard to read.
5 About them sentence fragments.
6 Don’t use commas, that aren’t necessary.
7 A preposition is not a good word to end a sentence with.
8 Remember to not ever split infinitives.
9 Writing carefully, dangling participles must be avoided.
10 Alway’s use apostrophe’s correctly.
11 Make each singular pronoun agree with their antecedents.
12 Join clauses good, like a conjunction should.
13 Proofread your writing to make sure you don’t words out.
Compliments of the Collins Wordpower series: Good Grammar by Graham King. Reproduced without permission!
May I also present Aozhouren’s handy dandy guide for writing better sentences:
When in the delicate process of constructing a masterful sentence the number of words used is the critical, or crucial if you, the author, prefer, factor which allows one to simply and easily, by conducting a simple count, distinguish a superior sentence from a merely average one; assuming that the meaning can still accurately be conveyed despite the reduced number of words used.
OR
Fewer words, same meaning: better sentence.
Ummm. Sentence guide also “borrowed” but I can’t remember where from.
Well… on the grammar topic… Are you people considering “ebonics” as a language then? I’m personally from California. More specifically, the bay area, about 40 minutes from Berkeley. It was in Berkeley and Oakland where it was proposed that ebonics be taught as an actual language…
Oh, btw, plz excuse my incorrect punctuation and grammar and such… I’m from the “D” generation, where we all communicate through AIM and have our on online language… It’s already straining my fingers to not be able to type in my usual abbrievations and expressions, etc… =)
^_________^
Okay, there’s no rule that says senetences can’t end in prespositions. According to my Gregg Reference Manual (9th edition), “Ending a sentence with a prepostion is not incorrect. Wheteher or not you do so should depend on the emphasis and effect you want to achieve.” All of the usage guides I’ve read agree with this opinion.
Infinitives may be split. Gregg reference manual, Section 1046.
And why can’t I start a sentence with a conjunction?
These “rules” can and should be broken when necessary. However, I try to avoid doing so in formal writing because people without the proper training may misconstrue the usage as being incorrect.
And here’s another one. You don’t need two spaces after a period. With desk-top publishing, one space works just fine. The US Government Printing Office and the Chicago Manual of Style both agree.
I agree that language is flexible and constantly evolving. However, communication that is clear and precise helps reduce the risk of misunderstanding.
Just a few examples:
“This offer is not available in all areas.” (Commonly used in adverstising disclaimers in the States.) What does this mean? It’s not available in ANY area, or it’s not available in SOME areas?
Danglers:
“Lying deep inside the large colon, the physician noticed a grade 3 tumor.” What this sentence is supposed to mean is that the doc saw a tumor deep inside the colon. What it actually says is that the physician saw a tumor while he or she was lying deep inside the [patient’s] colon. An uncomfortable situation for both parties, I’d imagine. Or a more sublte example: “Based on my information, this candidate is in an excellent position to win the election.” Does this mean that my information will help the candidate win, or, more probably, that I have information suggesting that the candidate has a good shot at winning? The fact is that the canidate is not based on my information.
There are dozens of other examples of poor grammar and usage practices that (notice “that”, not “which”) can make your meaning imprecise. I brought up these merely to illustrate the point that, while many supposed grammar rules are antiquated or not useful, clarity is still critical for effectice communication. Once you understand the way the language works, clear communication is more about logic than remembering rules. I also brought up these points because the message boards have been sort of slow lately, and, well, I was bored.
Hey Guys:
Great debate, I’ve learned a lot by reading all of the reply’s.
My questions are very basic, so please excuse my ignorance:
-What’s an infinitive?
-Why can’t you split them?
Examples would help immensely as I, like most people, speak English fairly well, but don’t remember a lot of the “rules” of grammar. This is mainly because I wasn’t interested in them at the time I learned them, and because High School was a long time ago (I was too busy drinking beer).
Oh well, never too late to learn.
quote:Remember Star Trek's Intro? [b]To Boldly Go[/b] where no man has gone before... Traditionally, this has been a grammatical no-no. A better alternative would have been "to go boldly". Time changes everything, however, and nowadays, it's considered acceptable English, although me being the tight-ass that I am, I still strive to diligently avoid such phrases. [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]
Originally posted by tristach: What's an infinitive? Why can't you split them? Examples would help immensely.
Verb: Go
Infinitive form: To go
Split Infinitive: To boldly go where no man has gone before
Proper form: To go boldy where no one has gone before
That said, here’s a fuller reading from Dictionary.com:
quote[quote]The split infinitive has been present in English ever since the 14th century, but it was not until the 19th century that grammarians labeled and condemned the usage. The only rationale for condemning the construction is based on a false analogy with Latin. The thinking is that because the Latin infinitive is a single word, the equivalent English construction should be treated as if it were a single unit. But English is not Latin, and distinguished writers have split infinitives without giving it a thought.[/quote]
quote:
Originally posted by BaKaBaKa: Well... on the grammar topic... Are you people considering "ebonics" as a language then? I'm personally from California. More specifically, the bay area, about 40 minutes from Berkeley. It was in Berkeley and Oakland where it was proposed that ebonics be taught as an actual language...^_________^
I belive the issue was not to teach Ebonics (known also as African American Vernacular English, or AAVE), but to recognize it as a legitimate language or dialect rather than as a collection of errors. Ebonics was thus recognized as the primary language of “many” African American students, and that such students could be taught in AAVE. The idea was that recognizing the legitimacy of the “home” language would help students learn the standard version. In this way, speakers of AAVE could be taught standard English in the same way as speakers of other languages, such as Spanish, would be taught.
Ammended resolution: http://linguist.emich.edu/topics/ebonics/ebonics-res2.html
Also see http://www.cal.org/ebonics/ebfillmo.html for an overview of the issue.
Tristach,
Are you an English teacher here by any chance?