I was poking around this site
myu.com.tw/main.php?lang=zh&PHPS … f8f5880cd9
when the thought occurred to me that tutoring like this is illegal…uh…isn’t it?
jdstumped
It depends on who you are. Are you Taiwanese? Returning Chinese? A foreigner married to a local? If not, can the person wanting to hire you obtain a work visa for you?
It depends on who you are.
[quote=“myury”]It depends on who you are. Are you Taiwanese? Returning Chinese? A foreigner married to a local? If not, can the person wanting to hire you obtain a work visa for you?
It depends on who you are.[/quote]
Good answer. 
I think that Jd’s question is a very valid one.
As we all know, the majority of foreign teachers are here on ARC’s issued through their companies and therefore are not allowed to do any work outside of their employer - paid or unpaid; at a school or privately.
Although everyone should probably know by now that tutoring is technically illegal for many ARC holders it might be a good idea to add a reminder on your site to this effect. Afterall, if there are people out there who are not aware of this fact it might be a good opportunity to let them know.
I think it may be viewed as illegal by interpretation only. What I mean by that is we are assuming it by extension: ie “not allowed to do any work outside of their employer” is taken, by us, to mean that the rule includes private tutorring. I don’t think that is how the law is actually interpretted or enforced in reality. In my own case, I’ve had police and foriegn affairs police staffers ask me for private lessons. I really don’t think we need to over think this. Private lessons, in reality, aren’t viewed as illegal employment and, in practice, it isn’t enforced as such. IMO, there’s no need for a site like myu.com.tw to warn prospective teachers about something for which their is no realistic risk.
[quote]I’ve had police and foreign affairs police staffers ask me for private lessons[/quote]I think that says more about the knowledge and honesty of the police rather than the legality of tutoring. Teaching English and getting paid for it is defined as work. How can that not be paid work ? And just because you get away with it, doesn’t mean it’s legal. Some policeman may decide one day when you’re not expecting it to enforce it…
We’ve had this discussion before in another thread.
I think that’s our interpretation of what’s illegal. That’s what I’m getting at. Fact is, there aren’t raids of coffee shops and homes looking for private tutors, there aren’t questionings of school children to determine if they have private teachers and there aren’t any deportations that I’ve ever heard of. Based on this, I say the practice is not really illegal, at least not in the sense that you’ll ever receive sanction for doing it.
[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”][quote]I’ve had police and foreign affairs police staffers ask me for private lessons[/quote]I think that says more about the knowledge and honesty of the police rather than the legality of tutoring. Teaching English and getting paid for it is defined as work. How can that not be paid work ? And just because you get away with it, doesn’t mean it’s legal. Some policeman may decide one day when you’re not expecting it to enforce it…
We’ve had this discussion before in another thread.[/quote]
Scott Ezell was also busted doing a county government sponsered gig. Didn’t make it legal when it came to deportation time.
[quote=“bobl”][quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”][quote]I’ve had police and foreign affairs police staffers ask me for private lessons[/quote]I think that says more about the knowledge and honesty of the police rather than the legality of tutoring. Teaching English and getting paid for it is defined as work. How can that not be paid work ? And just because you get away with it, doesn’t mean it’s legal. Some policeman may decide one day when you’re not expecting it to enforce it…
We’ve had this discussion before in another thread.[/quote]
Scott Ezell was also busted doing a county government sponsered gig. Didn’t make it legal when it came to deportation time.[/quote]
An apples and oranges comparison, if you ask me.
There’s legal and there’s feasible. You pay your money, you take your chances. But don’t try to convince people that, technically, any work which is not at the specific job and location specified on your ARC is not illegal, if you are basing your residence on a work permit and ARC. There are specific ways around this – marriage, Article 51 for the few who can qualify, etc. etc. But by and large, all other work is illegal for ARC holders.
My response is: don’t try to convince people that there is any signifigant risk in teaching private students in homes and cafes. It’s not the reality of the situation, not by a long shot.
I’m suggesting that we may be thinking about this one too much when we suggest posting warnings on sites for obtaining private students and we may be taking too literal a reading of the regulations. There isn’t any signifigant risk in this activity. There’s zero enforcement, zero will to commence any enforcement and virtually zero realistic ways to begin any such enforcement.
Yes, but F.com is supposed to be a source of accurate and reliable information. It is unethical for f.com to tell people there is no risk involved in pursuing illegal activities, particularly in a culture where the interpretation of the law changes as quickly as A-Huang’s shirts down at the police sub-station. There may be a hierarchy of risk, but it is not F.com’s place to comment as to what degree of risk is “acceptable” for all users. It is even more inappropriate for F.com to represent activities that are illegal in black-letter Taiwanese law as being legal.
If you want poor or unreliable or anecdotal information, there are plenty of other sources available. I don’t think anyone is trying to scare anyone, but if you truly believe that a) just because it has never been done that way (i.e., enforced) it never will be, or b) because it was interpreted that way in the past, it always will be – then you Just Don’t Understand Taiwanese Bureaucratic Culture.
[quote=“brian”]I think that Jd’s question is a very valid one.
As we all know, the majority of foreign teachers are here on ARC’s issued through their companies and therefore are not allowed to do any work outside of their employer - paid or unpaid; at a school or privately.
Although everyone should probably know by now that tutoring is technically illegal for many ARC holders it might be a good idea to add a reminder on your site to this effect. Afterall, if there are people out there who are not aware of this fact it might be a good opportunity to let them know.[/quote]
We do ask that all users agree to our terms and conditions, which we did write from scratch with readability in mind. We mention in the terms that one should ensure that one complies with the laws of Taiwan. We’ve opted not to post something more prominent since a) it may scare off good teachers who can indeed legally teach privates and b) the risk of deportation is too small (thanks to Toasty for pointing that out) to warrant reminding everyone of what they should already know. After all, it only takes a small amount of personal accountability to ensure that you are not unintentionally breaking the laws of a country in which you have taken up residence.
If a student were to complain that a teacher showed up to tutor, but was not legally allowed to tutor, we would revoke that teacher’s profile as he or she would be in violation of our terms. Otherwise, we have no way of checking a teacher’s legal status, and, as I’m sure most can appreciate, even the official people in charge of checking these things wouldn’t necessarily agree on the legalities (thanks again to Toasty) of a particular teacher undertaking side tutoring work.
As an aside, the site has been up for a year and a half, and the terms and conditions page is fairly popular content, yet we still have only 800 or so registered teachers with about half being of foreign origin. Thus, the numbers nudge me to conclude that there are many teachers who have read the terms carefully and counted themselves on the cautious side, and that is certainly a wise decision if they feel the risk of possible arrest or deportation is too high for them. To each his or her own.
As far as strictly following the law to the letter, speaking from a philosophical and not promotional point of view, I hope that all the world travellers here can see that even the most law-conscious nations on earth have laws on the books that they simply don’t enforce. The laws of certain US states that try to regulate behavior between consenting adults come to mind, jaywalking in Montreal is another example. The list goes on and to be hyper-lawful in one’s behavior while thousands are bending or breaking the law without punishment is simply a lifestyle choice, and an admirable one at that.
All the best everyone.
Ryan
Quite clearly tutoring is work and I think that it is misguided to suggest that it is anything but work. I don’t agree that we are misinterpreting the legislation, in fact I think that the legislation is very much black and white on this issue. Considering the fact that people undertaking unpaid voluntary work outside of their ‘jobs’ have been taken to task for this in the past, I suspect that the government would have no problem classing someone caught teaching privates for money as being in breach of his/her working permit. So pretty much anyone who is teaching privates, paid or unpaid, while here on an ARC/work permit issued by an employer, on a student visa, or on a visitors visa, is working illegally.
I agree wholeheartedly that there is very little chance that one would get caught for teaching privates but this does not make it legal.
My point is quite simple. I believe that myu really should state clearly to the users of their site which categories of foreigners can tutor legally on their site. We are all aware that a large number of the teachers listed on that site would not actually legally qualify to teach privates. Myu is not responsible for what users choose to do with that information however, and if teachers choose to ignore this and take on privates illegally then that is the individuals choice and I would certainly not hold myu responsible for this. By not placing such information more prominently on the site however I believe that they are leaving themselves vulnerable and may just mislead an uninformed teacher into doing something that is illegal – whether or not they get caught for this.
Opinions like this are quite scary if you ask me, especially when they come from someone who has been here for as long as yourself Toasty. Can you guarantee that someone who was unlucky enough to get caught for teaching a private would not get into trouble for this? If not then I suggest that you reconsider the stance that you are taking here.
How so? I don’t understand how this information would scare off teachers who are legally permitted to take on privates. Surely by outlining clearly on your site which categories of foreigners can take on privates (or conversley which ones can’t), people who are legally qualified would be more reassured and you would end up with a list of teachers who are legally qualified to do the work that your users are paying for, rather than a mismatch of teachers some of whom are clearly working illegally.
You may be correct that there is only a small chance of someone getting deported for teaching privates, but surely you should provide the information in a more prominent way on your site such that the individual can make an informed decision about this.
I think that you mention on your site that you phone all new teachers to verify their details before listing them. Would that not be a good chance to verify that they can legally do tutoring work before uploading their information to your site. From the perspective of a paying student I think that I would appreciate your site a lot more if I knew that the teachers I was considering were in fact working here legally.
I agree with your first point here but disagree with the second.
It is not up you to require teachers to provide proof that they can legally teach privates and teachers must be accountable for their own actions. The only way to ensure that all teachers listed were legally able to tutor you would need to require them to provide documentary evidence of this which is not at all practical. This is why my point is not for you to guarantee that teachers are legal but just to make the legalities more visible on your site both for teachers and the students who are selecting them. Then let the teachers and students work it out for themselves. I am confident that the majority of teachers and students on your site would be unaware of the legalities.
I don’t agree that there is any disagreement as to the legalities of tutoring work. It is quite clearly illegal for most foreign teachers in Taiwan. What is being bandied about is the fact that there is very little chance that you would actually get caught for doing this work.
Don’t get me wrong. I think that yours is a novel site and as you are no doubt aware I have supported it since its inception. I just think that the more informed we all are the less chance there is of unexpected problems and the subsequent complaints that come after people get into to trouble for doing something that they believed was legal when it wasn’t.
Brain, I find myself agreeing with you one minute and then disagreeing the next. I can see that all your points are well thought out. Please take my rebuttal in that light, if I come across as defensive or rude.
Yes. I don’t think that can be disputed.
It’s easy to think of myu as a site for connecting foreign teachers to Taiwanese students; however, Taiwanese make up the majority of our teachers. There are many other sites that people, including foreigners, can use to find work, and not one of them to my knowledge has a prominent warning about any laws, let alone laws regarding foreign teachers. I don’t understand why myu should warn teachers for the sake of the few who don’t know the laws, while other sites do not post such warnings.
I would agree that this opinion is scary, if someone could point to a case of a teacher getting busted for private tutoring. What’s far worse is teachers working at bushibans prior to the work permit being finalized and teachers teaching at school branches not listed on their ARCs. The fact is people get deported for these activities; they do not get deported for private tutoring. If someone were to get deported for private tutoring, we would seriously consider putting a prominent warning up.
Do bars and nightclubs put up signs that say Drugs dealing is punishable by death in ROC? Not everyone knows that law, and lots of people break it. Such a sign may keep a few people from getting arrested, but it unnerves many other normal people. Is this a drug dealing bar? Are the managers nervous nellies that are going to toss me out for dancing too well?
And look at coffee shops. They have customers who are breaking the law on their premises. Do they post such warnings? No shirt, no shoes, no service; and no tutoring in the shop. By not having such warnings and not kicking tutors and students out, they are complacent in others breaking the law, and even provide assistance and sanctuary to such criminals. They should at the very least kick these people out like they would certainly kick out any crack dealer or pimp, if for no other reason than their own self-interest in not having charges pressed against them. This might seem like a silly analogy, but I think that a coffee shop would ceratinly post such a sign and kick people out in response to daily raids by the police.
But the majority of coffee shop customers are not breaking the law, you might say. Well, same with myu’s teachers (I’d like to say all, but I can’t prove that obviously).
This is what I meant by saying that a warning would scare off people who are legally able to teach.
I’ve tutored a lot, and I’ve never had anyone ask me if I was doing so legally. To date, we’ve only had one inquiry from a user regarding legal issues, and that was a buxiban that wanted us to help them apply for a work permit, which of course we couldn’t help them with. Honestly, I don’t see this improving the quality of the site for the students/schools.
I would disagree since the majority of teachers on the site are Taiwanese and this is clearly not an issue for them. I would also guess (and we can only guess) that most foreign teachers are well aware of the legalities, since many of them find our site through this site and other ‘serious’ teacher sites (we track these kinds of things). We don’t hand out business cards at the airport.
Well, Toasty’s experience suggested that those who know and are supposed to enforce the laws are willing to break them. How seriously can we take a law that is broken by people like this? Do you drive the speed limit when everyone else, including the police, are sailing by at 20 km/hr over?
[quote=“brian”]
Don’t get me wrong. I think that yours is a novel site and as you are no doubt aware I have supported it since its inception. I just think that the more informed we all are the less chance there is of unexpected problems and the subsequent complaints that come after people get into to trouble for doing something that they believed was legal when it wasn’t.[/quote]
Well, thank you. I think that buxiban.com is a novel and interesting site, too. I think most of our disagreements stem from the obvious difference between the sites: providing infomation vs. linking people. I might suggest that you charge for your services, as you might suggest that I educate my users.
Best regards,
Ryan
Well, now, it’s not really myury’s responsiblity to ensure that people have researched the law, IMHO.
I think myury would be responsible to add some kind of statement saying that not ALL foreigners in Taiwan are able to tutor legally, but I don’t see them having to provide specifics. And since there ARE many foreigners in Taiwan who could legally tutor, they are within their (well, not “rights” but “ethics”, perhaps?) to provide a job-match service, I believe. As long as they don’t put up a notice “Come one come all, it’s always okay to teach through myury” I don’t see where it is their responsibility to see that every job seeker knows the law, since those job seekers are supposed to be adults (see my other posts on f.com on being an adult, being responsible and knowing the law in the country you have chosen to work in.)
myury, at the end of the day that site is obviously yours and therefore you will do as you see fit.
I will reiterate my earlier comments that I don’t have a problem with your site and that I think that it is a great idea for both teachers and students. If, as you say, the majority of teachers are of Taiwanese origin, and if the users (students) of the site don’t care about the legality or illegality of the teachers who are teaching them then this is not a problem for anyone. I just think that it is not clearly stated on your site that some foreign teachers do not legally qualify to teach privates. I think that there are a lot of people who are fully aware that teaching in schools outside their main job is illegal, but may not realize that teaching privates is equally illegal even if it is not as widely enforced. Posting something to this effect would ensure that there were no misunderstandings.
I think that forumosa does a pretty good job of alerting people to these sorts of things. Just have a look at the volunteer in Taiwan forum. Who would ever think that volunteering could get you deported. Well it can and forumosa points this out.
I would like to think that buxiban.com also makes things clear in this regard, however the wealth of information there does kind of bury some of the important information so perhaps we should do something about that.
Why wouldn’t myu include such a warning on your site? If it can help some people even if it doesn’t apply to most of the people who use your site, then what’s the harm?
I find this odd. If you concede that it is illegal and that it is possible (however unlikely) that someone could get deported for teaching through your site then wouldn’t it be a good idea to warn them first. It would not be very difficult for certain people to utilize your site to gather information if you know what I mean - and that is a bit of a worry if there are people posting their information there unaware of possible consequences. These people should be aware for their own sake and that is not your responsibility but why not help them out.
I didn’t really get the point of your doing drugs and not wearing shoes analogies. It seems to me that people who know they are not breaking the law are not bothered by these laws. People who are told about them and choose to break the law anyway are in the very least better prepared if they are informed of these legalities. Those who choose not to break the law but weren’t previously aware that such was illegal will probably thank you for helping them avoid trouble.
Fair enough and I think that this is a valid point. But it still fails to address the issue that some of your users may not be aware of these laws and you have an opportunity to inform them. It is all about avoiding trouble.
As someone else alluded to Toasty’s experience does not say much other than that some individuals who should know better either do not or do not care. This situation will not help the poor unfortunate who does happen to get caught out. Much in the same way that should you choose to speed because the police car is speeding you wouldn’t be exempt from a fine for doing so if caught. Playing the devils advocate perhaps those FAP people were setting Toasty up!! I am sure that is not the case as I believe that Toasty has a good head on his shoulders but you never know!
Personally I hope that you do change your mind and post something on your site that may just help people out.
Ironlady I am not suggesting that myu is nor should be responsible for what his users do. I just think that it would be helpful to make it clear to all and sundry that not everyone can legally teach privates here in Taiwan.