NATO security training in Iraq

Where’s Fred Smith. I would have thought he would have picked up on this. NATO agrees to help out with training the Iraqi security forces, but surprise, surprise guess who disagrees and refuses to pick up any of the bill (yet again!)

Let’s move NATO from Brussels to Warsaw and leave the Belgians to exult over their EU bureaucracy. Let’s kick the French and Belgians out of NATO. France left once. Let’s kick them out this time and give Belgium the opportunity of staying or going. It was our own foolish mistake to let the French back in. We will pay dearly for it, but we must thwart them at every turn. Germany will be a new country when Schroeder loses the next election and then we will have a bloc involving France, Belgium, Spain and perhaps Portugal or Italy (depending on who wins the election) and maybe something like Greece. So what? Where’s the relevance? Where’s the power? This is exactly like predicted in 1945 by the author of the treatise in Check it out.

But Germany ultimately is neither culturally, strategically or economically linked with France. The rush of German companies and investment is not to France or Spain but to Poland and the East as is and always will be the case.

Give the amusing article by the Frankfurter Zeitung recently about how the Communists and Fascists were working together and protesting together in East Germany, I recall with much amusement, Gunther Grass’s perfect skewering of the German character and its tendency to dogmatism no matter whant the ideology in the personage of the mother in Crab Walk. Here, once again, we have the urge toward dogmatic paternalistic, inflexible, untolerant nature that has so often characterized Germans of the past. If they truly understood the ideals that they stood for or claimed to stand for how can Germans of the Communist ilk work together with Germans of the Fascist ilk? Does this make sense to anyone other than someone whose main goal is inflexible, intolerant obeisance to a black-and-white ideology? This is how Gunther Grass’s character of the mother in Crab Walk could so easily move from Naziism to Communism but not so easily to Democracy and Free Markets. Interesting, nicht war?

Ahhh…there he is!

I aim to please…

thank you again fred

Germany will not change when we loose Schroeder
and the US will not change when they loose Bush

the former chancellor Kohl linked the Germany very much to France

I disagree. Germany and France always worked closely together but Germany’s foremost ally under Kohl was the US. It was what the nation’s entire security policy was predicated upon. You are thinking of an economic relationship. Already Germany has backed off of its closer political relationship with France and the relationship is back to economics again but several factors are riling this as well.

Spain traditionally has never been such a close ally of the US and when Zapatero was elected, it went back to its more natural position. Germany will return to its more natural position when Schroeder is out. As long as Joschka Fischer is in office, there will be no improvement to the degree that is required to bring US-German relations back to full flower. I think by 2006, we will see substantial improvement one way or another. A little turmoil in Belarus or Ukraine will do much to concentrate Berlin on the necessity of a strong US alliance.

Germany’s greatest security concerns now as always are to the East. The entire eastern bloc is most closely allied with whom? the US. Why? Because they like Germany know where their security guarantees are buttered.

France is a bounced check when it comes to security gurantees. Would you trust the French to come to your aid? or would they despite their treaties with you sell your enemy the weapons and equipment that he needed to prosecute a war against you. Wake up and smell the coffee. The French government is evil and will someday reap its reward. The only difference then will be that no US aid or succor will be forthcoming. Just because a threat cannot be envisioned today does not mean one will not come.

Rather than think conventionally, I think we need to look at the possibility of a fifth column of North Africans or Muslims fomenting a civil war for greater rights. As concerned allies of France, we should then do everything we can to tie the government’s hands there to prevent it from prosecuting such a fight while demanding the rights of those rebelling be protected and perhaps placing economic sanctions on France until it respects the rights of all of its peoples. We should fill the UN with our impassioned rants about the need to respect all people’s rights and aspirations while calling upon France to allow autonomy to wide segments of the population and huge swaths of the country.

I can envision something like this. It may take 20 years to happen but when it does, Americans like me will be there to kick France while it is down and out, over and over and over again. Do not underestimate the rude awakening Americans like me had when France stabbed us in the back over Iraq and they did. Engage in talk shop euphemisms all you want but we know what France did and we will not forget.

no wrong again
Kohl’s most important politial friend was Gorbatschow

But i hope you are right about one thing. When Germany finally will get a new Chancellor a view things will change.

Kohl’s most important friend was Gorbachev? News to me. I disagree but am very confident that given Germany’s strategic and security interests that the US relationship will once again blossom. This cynical approach will not outlast Fischer. It is like Che Guevera becoming the US secretary of state. Incredible. Germany has been upset by past US presidents, namely, James Earl Carter so we must understand that while they were suffering during those four years, we have suffered doing these four years. Every country mistakenly elects an “idealistic” president every now and then. Schroeder and Fischer are Germany’s Carter and Mondale team. We all make mistakes but the sooner those mistakes are corrected the better. I would argue that we are still picking up the pieces of our four years with Carter. It will take another 20 to perhaps erase these.

political friend, Fred
of course i don’t know about Kohl’s personal friends

But in his political career it was either Gorbatschow
or Mitterand.

I strongly disagree that Kohl’s “friends” trumped any political matters then. Germany was strongly in the US camp until this Fischer came along. We have too many mutual and overlapping interests and now that Eastern Europe has once again become the major concern of the German political establishment, where does that leave France? We are already back on track. After 2006, we will have Germany back. Spain was not ours nor really is Italy in terms of political alignment. We got those two but lost Germany. That unnatural situation will reverse itself soon.

well if you think so Fred,
But maybe you are right and the reunification and the Leuna deal were neither political nor important during that time.

But who is WE and on which track are WE already back on?

We is, of course, “right-thinking” Americans haha.

Second, did you know that Gorbachev, Thatcher and Mitterand (all good friends of Kohl’s no doubt) vetoed the reunification of Germany with Mitterand famous saying, “I love Germany so much I want there to be two of them.” It was George Bush Sr that got the deal through and it was part of this deal that Kohl assisted with by sweet talking Gorbachev into allowing Germany to remain in NATO while drinking vodka late one night overlooking the Volga.

But if you want to know why Germany is reunified today, 80% of this goes to the US, 10% to Kohl and 10% to Gorbachev. The British and French were against and so were most of the other European countries secretly.

Bush convinced Gorbachev with Kohl’s assitance that an unanchored Germany was more of a threat than a neutral Germany stuck between two camps. Gorbachev agreed and realized that it was pretty much a fait accompli later. Too bad that Kohl’s drinking sessions with Yeltsin did not see the return of Kaliningrad to Germany or that little problem might haver been taken care of as well. Ah well, cannot have everything can we?

oh no
but if you prefer to belive this…

If America had vetoed German reunification, you would have two separate countries right now. Russia, UK, France and truth be told probably ever country in NATO and Europe were against because of historic fears. The Eastern Europeans were certainly dead set against. How then do you think German reunification came about if not because of American persuasion and support?

Kohl was a great friend of America and his loss was perhaps needed to bring reform to Germany but unfortunately that reform has not come and Schroeder has ripped up important alliances. Ironically, isn’t this exactly what Bush is criticized for? Incredible. Germany without America. I cannot believe it even today two years after the betrayal.

That said, I happen to know that many Germans share my concerns and they are not the peace protesters of Berlin, the love in punksters that plague Hanover or the leaf gatherers of Celle and Luneberg. While German foreign policy may become increasingly independent and why not? Germany and the US will once again be key strategic partners again. How could it be but so? France? Well, I have noticed that Schroeder no longer allows France to represent Germany in his absence. I also note some frictiion over various economic matters particularly France’s screw the rest of Europe’s attempts to save its own companies and subsidize their purchases of other countries’ companies. Schroeder has learned.

It ain’t for nothing that the French are already in Washington currying favor with Bush. If those whores are already in DC talking to Bush administration officials, what does it say about the state of Kerry’s ship? I mean if the rats are the first to know and go, perhaps Kerry may not have such a good future after all.

nothing to say to this
but if this make you sleep better

All right Robi but let’s remember a bit more about history and how your “new ally” was involved…

After initial misgivings, the NATO allies, especially Great Britain and France, offered solid backing for the German and American strategy. Early in the process, during 1989, French President Francois Mitterrand met with Gorbachev in Kiev to explore how to put the brakes on Germany’s unification. The Soviet memorandum of the conversation reveals that Gorbachev was wary of being maneuvered into a negative position and was particularly attentive to the U.S. posture; he felt that a Soviet-French (and even British) blocking combination would not serve his interests if the price were a breach with the United States and West Germany. To ease British and French concerns, President Bush arranged separate private meetings early in 1990 with Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and President Mitterrand. After these sessions, our cooperation at the working level was usually highly effective, supported by high-level aides such as Charles Powell, who worked with Mrs. Thatcher. … 76869/pg_4

Let’s also take a moment to pause and reflect on German actions precipitating the civil war in Yugoslavia.

Reliable intelligence sources claimed in 1990, that in 1988 Mr. Tudjman paid a secret visit to the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) and met with Chancellor Kohl and other senior Government Ministers. It was said that the aim of the visit was to formulate a joint policy to break-up Yugoslavia, leading to the re-creation of a new independent State of Croatia with international borders in the form originally set up by the German Chancellor, Adolf Hitler, in 1941. At a secret meeting in Bonn, the German Government pledged its political, financial, and covert military support for Croatia

[quote]All right Robi but let’s remember a bit more about history and how your “new ally” was involved…

Are you talking about the german reunification or Iraq now?
I am missing the point.

First USA supported German reunification, later France and finally UK. I can still remember Mrs. Thatcher saying “2015” we can do in the beginning :slight_smile:

And I agree with Fred (if I understood right), Germany and US so far away from each other is a strange thing. Bush and Schroeder were both a good relation-spoiling team.

Nevertheless, close cooperation with France for a more united Europe is a big chance for Germany, but should not bring us far away from US.

For our security reasons (some guys in White-Russia may have sharp vegetables to attack us one day) :blush: but also … well … you know … kind of things like common western values etc.

Bob Honest:

I could not agree more. I am a very very loyal Atlanticist and while I will never ever trust the French again, I simply cannot fathom how the US and Germany could drift so far apart. Both sides are taking steps to address the problem and I am highly confident about the future. As to your relations with France, of course, you should have good relations with the French, but BUT did the US ask you not to have good relations with France? Have we tried to break up your relationship with France? Or was it the French trying to break up the German-American relationship and to poison our alliance? Always, even with NATO, the French are perennially trying to fuck up a good thing. They have to have their commanders in charge, they want this, they want that. F*** them. They can go “triangulate” with themselves in the worst possible way.