NCLB petition for US citizens

From what I’ve heard about NCLB, it isn’t particularly effective. Of course accountability is good, but the way the whole thing was implemented seems to have been counterproductive.

Anyway, I came across this anti-NCLB petition, which I thought some Forumosans might be interested in.
petitiononline.com/1teacher/petition.html

I’m not one for political campaigning, though (especially when I don’t have all the facts), and I’d be genuinely interested to hear from anyone who feels that NCLB is really working, and why.

I would be equally interested in hearing from some one with specific examples as to why NCLB isn’t working and, in their opinion, why it isn’t working.

And who is the money behind “Educator Roundtable” who created this petition?

NEA perhaps?

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I would be equally interested in hearing from some one with specific examples as to why NCLB isn’t working and, in their opinion, why it isn’t working.[/quote]What I hear from some teachers is that it involves a great deal of testing and that the tests come from the “top down” and are not always relevant and well-designed. This has resulted in an environment where schools are having to “teach for the tests”, with predictable impacts on real education. Accountability is good. But it could be acheived in different ways.

You make a good point that it’s necessary to find out who organised the petition. Sometimes perfectly good causes are hijacked by radical groups who have their own agenda.

However, from what I understand, there is quite broad opposition to NCLB. And it would be a great pity if children’s education became any more politicised than it already is. So I hope we can try and avoid partisan politics in this thread and discuss the NCLB policies.

Joesax -
I am ot involved in the “educational” industry and I will admit that I do not have any information, pro or con, on the NCLB Act.
I have however observed that opposition to it has mostly come from the well-entrenched NEA thugs and Admin hierarchy who feel that their domains are being threated by the wide-spread call for some kind of accountability. They don’t seem to like being held responsible for the poor state of being that the US school system has devolved into.
As to “teaching for the test”, man oh man, I understand what you mean with that. And in the best of worlds that would be unnecessary, but how else is the required information to be passed on to children? The school districts are given funding based on student performance. They want the test scores high to get the money.
The education business is not my area and I won’t claim to have any answers.
I just know that ‘Home-Schooling’ is on a very steep
up slope in the US and the reasons are multiple. And despite the proven success with the home-schooled students in academic achievement, it is being fought at every step by the entrenched educational elites. It threatens their bailiwick and purse.

Like I said, follow the money on this one and see who turns up.
Good Luck!

I think it’s such a pity that things become partisan either way, pro- or anti- NCLB. And as you say it’s all connected with other stuff such as business and bureacrats.

I think a fair thing to say would be accountability yes, but with more flexibility at local levels so that tests are coherent (both in method and content) with what children really need to be taught.

Interesting that home-schooling is getting more popular. I was taught at home until the age of twelve. From an academic point of view, I was ahead of my peers. However my parents took the whole responsibility of homeschooling on their own shoulders and did not form home-schooling groups with other parents as some other people we knew did. It’s always difficult to learn from your parents, and in addition I didn’t get used to being around large numbers of other kids. Going to school for the first time at age 12 was a bit of a shock.

But I think home-schooling can be done well, from both the academic and social points of view.

I’m a teacher in a us and a public school. The problems in US education can be traced to 2 sources in order of accountability: 1) parents 2) the teachers’ union. Homeschooling works because the parents are heavily involved. When education fails in the public schools, it’s because the parents aren’t involved. I hate the teachers’ union. Their focus is $$$$ first and foremost. My district is on the verge of a strike. If they do, I will definitely cross the picket line (lots of issues here i’ll leave out for now). Anyway- I have seen NCLB bring about concrete positive changes. First off, if the school districts didn’t buy a reading/literacy series that had gone through rigorous field testing- they would lose federal funding. This is why my daughters’ school finally got good textbooks. The district I work in (which is 40 minutes away) also got a far superior reading series because of this pressure. The school districts didn’t tell parents in detail why the reading series was changed- that would have exposed theirown incompetence. I teach immigrant students whose parents usually never complain when they have lots of reasons to. Before NCLB, these students were just passed from grade to grade. The ones who have a good academic background to begin with and have involved parents at home, can still do well. The others who are barely to non-literate in their home country language, ditto for the parents, can continue to fail throughout the school years unless by chance they meet caring teachers (and there are a great many of these who are life-savers, but who salary and recognition-wise are usually never set apart from their ‘just earning that dollar’ peers). Now NCLB sets standards for these students, as well as special-ed (low) students who were also more or less ignored before, unless they had the good fortune to get a caring teacher. The one valid criticism is that all students- very low achieving, immigrant, whoever, are expected to reach proficiency standards by 2014. Some students really come with inborn learning problems- they just can’t retain information no matter how hard they try. I don’t know how this type of student can reach proficiency. But it is the schools’ and teachers’ own fault for being in this mess: when accountability testing was first being tried, any low achieving student would be put in spec ed because at that time the test scores of spec ed students did not have to be counted. A lot of these students did not truly belong in spec ed, though. They just needed better teachers and parents. By not counting the scores of the spec ed students, the schools avoided embarrassing test scores because they only reported the scores of the good students. Now NCLB won’t let them hide students this way. Huo gai. Teachers are feeling the pressure- and I for one and happy about that. They can’t just ignore my students. Still the union has a strangle hold and will spend my union dues to defend subpar teachers to the death. I’m thinking of withdrawing from the union, but almost the same amount of $ will still be taken out of my paycheck because it is a ‘closed shop’ or something. PS I have no problems at all with the tests the students are required to take. Test items give points for creativity/persuasiveness in writing, and in math some test items require students to give written explanations of how they got the answer so that even if the answer is wrong, they can get some points for having been on the right track if that was the case. As a parent and a teacher, I am very happy with NCLB. It’s the incompetent administrators and teachers who don’t like it and who will even instruct students how to cheat on state tests to circumvent it (as in Camden NJ’s case).

I just checked out the petition, which is a bunch of bs, particularly number 11:
Neglects the teaching of higher order thinking skills which cannot be evaluated by machines.

The written parts of the math and literacy section are all about higher order thinking skills and are not graded by machine, but by an actual human who has a rubric to follow. Teachers are aware of this rubric, and so teach according to it. Here are some of the insidious standards students must follow in their writing: organization, use of vivid vocabulary, focussing on the topic, correct spelling, usage and punctuation etc. I know these are so dangerous to the development of my children. So much so that before NCLB they were given short shrift.

Your welcome. Anytime. :candycane: :fatchance: :ohreally: :wall:

V, thanks for the detailed and interesting reply. It’s good to hear that you feel the NCLB policies are working for the most part.

[quote=“v”]Your welcome. Anytime. :candycane: :fatchance: :ohreally: :wall:[/quote]Sorry I didn’t reply sooner. I was a bit busy today and wanted to post a longish reply so thought it could wait a day or two. Apologies that I offended you.

I’ll post a condensed version of the reply I was intending to make.[quote=“v”]First off, if the school districts didn’t buy a reading/literacy series that had gone through rigorous field testing- they would lose federal funding.[/quote]I’m interested in the field testing. I wonder what kind of testing these materials go through. I read the National Reading Panel Reports and I was surprised how cautious they were in some of their findings.

As regards the situation on the ground, I have more knowledge (though admittedly still not much) about the UK. Although there are some bad things about the UK education system, I think they’re doing OK as regards literacy teaching. They do have systematic phonics programs but limit them to the most common and useful sound/spelling relationships. And they don’t wait until children have completed the phonics course before exposing them to good stories. I heard that in some places in the US it’s a lot more hardcore and kids go through an intense course with a great many phonics rules before ever opening a “real” storybook (i.e. one that isn’t just written for the purpose of practicing phonics skills). But this may well be exaggerated hearsay.

I’d be interested in what you have to say about this, and I hope we can continue the discussion. But I’m afraid I may not have time to post back very promptly.

joesax, no problem; I’m overly sensitive. I know the old argument about how teaching using phonics is too boring blah blah blah. Before we had a change in texts, we had the good ole ‘whole language appoach’ where you have to maybe use the first and last letters to guess the word in context, like 'I like to have l—n with my tea. I think I read that 33% of the total student population (a higher % where children have been exposed to print from an early age because of parents reading to them) can use the whole language method just fine. And it is pretty easy to guess the word is ‘lemon’ from the context. The problem comes with the majority of the kids who are having problems with all/most of the other words in the sentence and so can’t guess the word ‘lemon’ from context. I personally had bad experiences in first grade where the teacher had other kids helping me learn to read using flashcards where, like the whole language method, I had to remember the shape of the word rather than learn to sound it out. I failed miserably at this and was always frustrated and in tears. A lot of American kids have their moms helping them sound out the words at home, cuz when I was young (I’m 41), that generation of moms was taught using the Dick and Jane phonics books. Well my mom was a Russian immigrant. Russian is very easy to sound out, like Spanish, so she didn’t know any phonics rules. Plus she was busy at work and had no energy left to help me with school work. At some point I had a teacher who laid out the basic phonics rules for me, and my mom was always buying me easy books with lots of pictures to encourage me to read. I had problems up until 4 grade with reading- then I took off to become a bookworm who eventually majored in English Literature at Yale, so I have a special place in my heart for teaching reading the right way with phonics. Anyway, in kindergarten the kids learn their abc sounds and after a while, easy combos like at, ap, en, et, etc, that they can use to start blending consonants with. They also learn th, ch, sh and some high frequency words like the, my, with, in etc, that they are supposed to memorize by sight. I buck the current trend because I even use phonics to help the kids sound out the sight words. In first grade the kids get cute stories which aren’t just mini phonics lessons- they have a separate little booklet that only practices a particular phonics rule, and that booklet could be really boring if that was all they were reading, but it isn’t. Their more interesting story contains a little advanced vocab that the students haven’t explicitly been taught the phonics rules for yet that I teach them to sound out using phonics anyway. I have cute little stories I have developed to help them remember phonic rules. Like for ‘sh’, I draw a picture of the ‘h’ palm tree with the ‘s’ snake trying to climb it. The problem is it keeps sliding down, which we act out with body language. Then I draw pics of animals like an elephant, monkey and zebra laughing at the snake, to which it replies: ‘shhhh! Don’t laugh at me!’ Then they never forget the ‘sh’ sound and they (the immigrant kids I teach) learn a useful phrase. So, to make a long story short, school districts have a list of many series to choose from, but all of them have a heavy phonics focus, as well as more advanced vocab development. I get better results from these books.

Thanks for another interesting reply, V. This thread is more interesting than the things I am supposed to be doing, so I’ll take a little time out to carry on the discussion!

Good to hear that you’re able to use real stories as well as the phonics practice ones (though a few of the latter are actually quite good stories too).

I’m sure it’s true to say that whole language, at least in the way it was commonly implemented, wasn’t enough for many children. And I think there is definitely a case for explicit teaching of common and useful phonics principles as a kind of a early support for reading. (Though I don’t think there is clear evidence yet that conscious knowledge of phonics principles directly translates into automatic skills).

Here, I get good results by concentrating on a phonemic approach as regards phonics. Firstly teaching common single letter/phoneme correspondences through well-known, fully acquired vocabulary (especially important in an EFL setting). Then going on to digraphs and later still some of the other common principles such as “magic e”. But I feel that magic e is about the most complex kind of rule that is worth teaching. Any more complex rules than that are very hard for kids to implement in practice.

Here are some simple phonics rules I teach: I use pictures to teach all the letter sounds, so the kids are very solid in their short vowel sounds. Then I teach them about the vowels a,e,i,o,u sometimes y through a song. Then I teach them that most of the time, if a word has one vowel, then we use the picture sound for it. They already know the picture sound for a is like the a in ‘apple’. But if a word has 2 vowels, the second one is silent and the first one says its name, like in the abc song. So I give them the words cap and cape and tell them to put a number one under the first vowel and a number 2 under the second vowel (if there is a second vowel). If there is only one vowel to the word, I tell them to hold up one finger and repeat ‘one vowel, picture sound’, and we sound out c-a-p. For ‘cape’ I tell them that we can’t use the picture sound for the first vowel, we have to use the name sound, like it has in the abc song. So I draw a little musical note over the first vowel, and we sing ‘abc’, so they know that in ‘cape’ they can’t use the short a sound. Then I say that the second vowel is silent (with a finger to my lips) and we cross it out. Then they have to hold up 2 fingers and say, ‘2 vowels, abc song’. The kids get it with practice.

They go on to learn things like not all 2 vowel pairs can follow the above rule. I teach the 2 oo sounds, ou, the 2 ow sounds, ing, ong, aw/au, igh, ar,er ir,ur, or etc. Even in Taiwan I taught kids this way, but I would use Chinese to explain the rules. Also, I would make big cards with say ‘ing’ in one side, and the corresponding KK pronunciation symbol on the back. Chinese students will need to often use the KK pronunciation in their dictionary for longer words that they have never heard before. In the US, if the student has been exposed to a long word (they grew up speaking it, or as in the case of ESL students, the teacher has explicitly taught them the word), they can sound it out using phonics rules even if the rules don’t apply 100% of the time. If I see the sentence: ‘he jumped across the river’ and I initially sound out ‘across’ as ‘ay-crahss’, I can quickly correct myself because of sentence context and because I already have the word ‘across’ in my speaking vocabulary. So for long words, foreign students may have to depend more on a pronunciation system like KK. But for the US, if the student has the long word in their speaking/hearing vocab, they can sound it out without a pronunciation system. But when words get to be long, sometimes they get the sounds all mixed up in their heads. I teach them to say-‘long word, 3 letters’. Most of the time if they cover up all but the first 3 letters of the word and just concentrate on sounding that out first, and do the rest in chunks as well, they can sound out the entire word no problem.

Also, I got a great book about dyslexia that had a lot of all around good reading teaching strategies in it. Just being able to sound out the word isn’t enough, kids have to get fast at it, so that as soon as they see the word, they automatically can read it. Blending is definitely the first step, and, with a lot of kids, they will get to read that word automatically just by seeing it repeated in their stories. But for kids who have auditory retention problems-they can’t remember sound well (like my oldest daughter), they need extra practice with flash cards to make sure they have a deep impression of the words in their brains and can read it automatically when they see it. For my daughter, I would get say 8 words that she already knew how to read, albeit slowly. Then I would get a stop watch and time her as she got to read them faster and faster. We charted her progress and she loved the stop watch thing and trying to beat her own time. She really had difficulty learning to read, as well as speech problems. It was definitely something she was born with. The schools don’t have time to do this amount of remediation usually. If she didn’t have a mom who was willing to put in the time researching her problem, and then implementing a strategy, she would probably have needed to be put in a special class for low achievers. She still sometimes has problems sounding out a long word, but as long as she does it gradually, adding together chunk after chunk of the word, she can get it. For example, the word ‘international’. Even if she uses phonics and sounds it out as in-ter-na-tion-al, she might finally read it as ‘innatertional’, because she can’t keep the sound chunks organized in her mind well. But if she reads it step by step, adding chunks as she goes: in, inter, interna, internation, international- she can do it. I finally found her a series of novels she loves (about warrior cats :idunno: ), and she reads for an hour at a stretch. She just got her 5th grade report card- straight A’s :bouncy: .

[quote=“v”]…a mom who was willing to put in the time researching her problem, and then implementing a strategy…[/quote]That’s great. I think it’s this kind of commitment and determination that also makes home schoolers academically successful.

[quote=“v”]For example, the word ‘international’. Even if she uses phonics and sounds it out as in-ter-na-tion-al, she might finally read it as ‘innatertional’, because she can’t keep the sound chunks organized in her mind well. But if she reads it step by step, adding chunks as she goes: in, inter, interna, internation, international- she can do it.[/quote]Well, the latter is still a kind of phonics approach isn’t it? I think something like that is the best way to do long words, otherwise kids forget what came at the beginning of the word. Also, that way they can get the blends as they go along (because of course phoneme sounds do change as they are blended together).

Something I found very useful in the National Reading Panel reports was the recommendation to concentrate on just one or two phonemic awareness skills at a time (drawn from the evidence which showed this to be most effective). I start with isolating phonemes from the initial position of known words, and also blending. After a few months, we go onto segmentation – dividing words into their constituent phonemes. We do it twice for each word – orally first and then by building up the word on the whiteboard. The kids get really good at it and it helps their literacy all round including spelling.

However, I feel it’s important to remember that phonics skills are only part of successful reading. There are other factors which become increasingly important such as awareness of context and of discourse norms.

And I don’t think that any of this should prevent children from having access to good stories from the start. Reading aloud to kids can be very effective on a number of levels, not least in encouraging them to look at books and reading in a positive light, not just something they are told they have to master.

Reading to children, watching educational shows together, taking trips- all very important for background knowledge. I have a kid from the Phillipines who has good conversational English and can sound out anything you put in front of him- he just doesn’t know what the word means. So being able to sound out a word is clearly not enough. Lucky for him, he has an excellent memory. I just give him a simple definition once and he remembers it. We are working from materials he is using in his regular class. There are too many words he has never encountered before, so he can’t always guess the meaning from context. Anyone who wants to use material on the internet, and so be empowered by it, has to have an excellent vocabulary, or ‘book’ English, so building that vocab is crucial. I was reading something to my children (ages 11 and 9) off the internet today about the pilgrims. I had to explain words like ‘precarious’ to them- it was time well spent.

Also, for immigrant kids who know basic conversational English, there is an electronic dictionary that defines words in easy English and pronounces them (albeit in a robotic voice) put out by the company Franklin at Franklin.com. An English learner’s dictionary (like the different kinds published by Longman) is actually better, but kids are more motivated by the electronic dictionary cuz it’s fast and it looks cool (but it’s US$50 and will break if they sit on it or drop it enough).

When you talk about your teaching experiences, are you talking about in the UK or Taiwan? Also, you were homeschooled, right? Didn’t you get bored to death at home? We have a family of homeschoolers a couple of houses down, and they come out to the park across the street from me to play, but it seems like they have a lot of down time where they are bored. I grew up on a farm away from all the kids in my school and I got bored; but the boredom was beneficial in that I had to be creative to fill my time. I used to draw a lot. I also started a family newspaper on an old typewriter and we had a lot of pets. I was a bookworm (after 4th grade). And there was farm work. Please reply at your leisure :slight_smile:

Hi V,

I totally agree with your system. I teach at a private high school, (Chinese) and I am trying to locate some educational video for my students to watch but I don’t know where to look. Could you help me please? Our internet connection is really bad at school, so I can’t use it during class.

Anything you can provide will be grateful.

tommy, could you give me more information like the grade level? Do you want videos that teach reading to beginners? If your internet connection gets better, starfall.com is good for beginning readers. You can click on the letters and words, and they are sounded out for you.

[quote=“v”]When you talk about your teaching experiences, are you talking about in the UK or Taiwan? Also, you were homeschooled, right? Didn’t you get bored to death at home? We have a family of homeschoolers a couple of houses down, and they come out to the park across the street from me to play, but it seems like they have a lot of down time where they are bored. I grew up on a farm away from all the kids in my school and I got bored; but the boredom was beneficial in that I had to be creative to fill my time. I used to draw a lot. I also started a family newspaper on an old typewriter and we had a lot of pets. I was a bookworm (after 4th grade). And there was farm work. Please reply at your leisure :slight_smile:[/quote]I was talking about teaching in Taiwan.

Regarding being taught at home, my parents did their best, and I read all the books in the house and quite a few of the ones in the local libraries too. But it was a bit boring. We didn’t even have a TV until I was about 11, so in a way I was quite sheltered. It was a bit of a shock in various ways when I first went to school.

I think homeschooling is probably best if a few likeminded parents get together and take turns teaching. It can be quite difficult to be schooled by your own parents all the time, and also you don’t get as many opportunities to socialise with other kids.

Hi V,

First of all, thank you for your quick reply. I need video’s for the intermediate and advance level. They are 8th graders, but however, their Eglish is not at the 8th grade level.

Thanks again

Tommy, if they are at the intermediate and advanced level, you don’t need videos on teaching reading, right? One thing that could improve their vocab, but which is a little tedious, is to get the transcripts from good movies, news shows, science programs, etc, and watch a little bit of it- go over the transcript making sure all the vocab is understood- then watching a little more. The English subtitle function could also be enabled. If you want to make it fun and they are willing, you could make condensed scripts of the movies or whatever, and video the students acting it out. Or you could have a movie critics show that you could video where the students have to give the plot, etc, and state their opinion. Actually, you could pattern the student shows on any kind of show the 8th graders find entertaining. If they like game shows, you could pattern your lesson on creating and acting out a script for one. You could do funny commercials by watching examples of American commercials. You could make fun of American culture while you’re doing it: teens love to do that. When I was learning foreign languages in the US, I hated acting out stuff, but I have certain students who absolutely love it. Maybe some of the shyer (sp?) students could do more of the writing or something. There’s a site on the internet where you can print out lots of movie scripts. I don’t have the web address anymore, but I could google it if you can’t find it.

V -
Thanks for your information. I appreciate hearing some reality based opinions on the NCLB Act.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]V -
Thanks for your information. I appreciate hearing some reality based opinions on the NCLB Act.[/quote]Here are some more:
vsse.net/node/187

I appreciate that you probably won’t like the VSSE, but still, they surveyed 216 teachers, which is a fair few. Can those teachers really all be lazy people who don’t want to be held accountable? Surely not.

Perhaps there is a way to improve the NCLB policies without scrapping the good intentions behind it. From what little I’ve read so far, it seems that that improvement could involve rethinking some of the tests, and allowing teachers to cater more effectively for students of different abilities.