New Anti-Chomsky book out

Sure, the Khmer Rouge were totally nuts, no denying that. I’ve been to the killing fields, seen the piles of skull, been to the school they converted to a torture chamber/prison/execution grounds, which is now a museum. And at the time I read a few books about Cambodian history.

But my recollection is that the west only learned very late about the atrocities. And after all the lies and deceit from the US government concerning the facts in Indochina, at that time, one would have been wise to be a little sceptical about government reports. So, until I see proof that Chomsky denied the existence of the killing fields at a time when the facts were widely known of and believed in the west, I don’t believe the statement about Chomsky. You are free to believe what you want, but I need proof.

A debate about Chomsky here, nuanced. With people who, unlike Fred Smith, can analzye and understand information:
mekong.net/cambodia/media1.htm

Chomsky in Zmag
zmag.org/forums/chomcambodforum.htm

Chomsky in 1978
chomsky.info/letters/19780626.htm

Chomsky in 1970
chomsky.info/articles/19700604.htm

1996 Usenet debate on this topic:
cyberussr.com/hcunn/e-asia/ch-khm1-a.html

The situation is, as usual, far more complex than the simpleminded analyses of the anti-Chomsky crowd.

Vorkosigan

[quote=“fred smith”]But isn’t Chomsky’s reputation as an “expert” in linguistics also sort of “manufactured consent” among a certain tribe of thinkers?
[/quote]

Fred, how much of Chomsky’s works on linguistics have you actually read?

I didn’t say he was deep, I just said he was tall. And if Chomsky’s renown in his field is a result of “public relations inspired Key Messages,” then he must have a remarkable public-relations apparatus, and one which has been in existence for a long, long time. For at least the past three decades in the field of linguistics, it has been extremely difficult to have a discussion which is not informed or influenced in one way or another by his ideas.

I’ve chosen a few snippets from surfing the net that I hope will convey the general idea, beginning with this excerpt of an article summarizing Chomsky’s career and importance in linguistics:

“Traditional linguistics produced recommendations about socially acceptable forms of speech, guidelines for learning hitherto unknown languages, hypotheses about the origin and development of vernaculars, and a large amount of useful data concerning their current and actual phonology, morphology, syntax and semantics. It is hard to avoid the impression that there is no unified subject matter here. Cognitive linguistics, as Chomsky conceives of it, is the study of the language faculty of individual human minds (and ultimately brains). The key observation is that having a language is a species property of homo sapiens, both in the sense that linguistic competence (what speakers of a language know in virtue of being speakers) is remarkably uniform across members of our species, and in the sense that a similar competence cannot be found among members of other species. The uniformity of linguistic competence among humans had been obscured by excessive focus on the diversity of linguistic performance of speakers (facts about their actual linguistic behavior) and on the diversity of languages spoken in the world. But, according to Chomsky, brute observation of speaker behavior is a poor guide in linguistics and underneath the apparent diversity we can discover universal principles of human languages. The lack of linguistic competence among non-human animals is obscured by the fact that some of them (e.g. bees or dolphins) have the capacity to communicate and by the limited success researchers had in teaching some of them (e.g. chimpanzees and orangutans) to understand simple verbal instructions. But existing systems of animal communication consist of a finite set of symbols, and there is no evidence that animals can acquire much more than that through instruction. Language, on the other hand, has a recursive grammar capable of generating a potentially infinite set of expressions.”

The rest of the article can be found at adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html )

Chomsky’s 1959 review of B.F. Skinner’s Verbal Behavior is at luna.cas.usf.edu/~weiskopf/philm … inner.html . It should give some idea of the issues of that day and of Chomsky’s thinking about the nature of language.

A summary explanation of Jean Berko Gleason’s 1958 “wug test,” an experiment conducted the year after Chomsky’s publication of his theories of a language acquisition device and a generative grammar in a book called Syntactic Structures, is at childes.psy.cmu.edu/topics/wugs/wugs.doc .

And even if someone were to successfully oppose Chomsky’s main ideas in linguistics, why, Einstein himself got whupped once (please see homepages.paradise.net.nz/rochel … stein.html ), and yet he’s still considered a pretty smart fellow.

Chomsky criticizes any government that deserves it.

My favorite is when he attacked Canada. There are so many smug Canadians who love Chomsky because he criticizes the US so much.

One time, he was being interviewed in Canada, and he called Lester Pearson a war criminal. The interviewer got all indignant and started insulting Chomsky.

Pearson was Prime Minister of Canada and the chairman of NATO when he decided to illegally drop bombs in Yugoslavia, killing thousands of innocents just like the Americans do. Yes, he was a war criminal. And Canada is evil, too. Chomsky’s just reminding them of it. The indignant interviewer was just blinded by his own idiotic patriotism.

Ever read ‘Listen, Little Man!’ by Wilhelm Reich?

Fred and probably most others who regard Chomsky with disdain feel that way not because of his statements on Cambodia 25 years ago or because they feel his linguistic theories are flawed (since when have linguistic theories inspired such controversy and loathing?), but because Chomsky is often critical of various US policies, usually interventionist military policies, and his detractors are mostly of the rah rah America can do no wrong crowd. Rather than admit that they dislike anyone who dares to question US policy at all, they conjure up pretextual reasons for disliking him.

I admit that Chomsky is not easy reading. I never finished Manufactured Consent. But I appreciate that he’s extremely bright, logical and inquisitive, he questions authority (as one should, Fred) and he documents his sources heavily with footnotes, which add a great deal of legitimacy to his writing. If one doesn’t believe what he says, one can look it up.

My guess - and it’s just that, really - is that the reason conservatives hate Chomsky is because he never backs down, he takes no prisoners, and he’s so implacable in his attack on their philosophy(s) that he rings the ‘paranoid’ buzzer that exists in the head of all true conservative ‘types.’

:idunno:

It’s the same buzzer that causes American conservatives to go fetal and want to amend the constitution - even if it means expressly denying certain Americans certain civil rights - or pass a Patriot Act, say, when their world view is threatened. By terrorism, for instance.

He scares the shit out of them, basically.

[i]What I object to is that Chomsky tears up the trail markers that might lead to conclusions different from his. He makes it next to impossible for people unversed in the issues to understand what the live and much-debated points of contention might be.

What I object to is the lack of background [/i][in Chomsky’s book “What Uncle Sam Really Wants”–ed.], to the lack of context. In telling the history of the Cold War as it really happened–even in ten pages–there has to be a place for Stalin, an inquiry into the character of the regimes that Stalin sponsored, and an assessment of Stalinist plans and expectations. But Chomsky ruthlessly suppresses half the story of the Cold War–the story of the other side of the Iron Curtain.

My Allergic Reaction to Noam Chomsky

This is simply not true. While there’s no arguing that virtually no one on the right likes Chomsky, many thinking people in the center and on the left dislike his polemical style and wilfully dishonest partisan politics as well.

It’s very ironic but I seem to think that Fred and Chomsky are two peas in a pod – both have equally immovable held views of the world according to them :slight_smile:.

V:

Thanks for making my job easier and supplying the debate.

I will recopy some of that debate here for MT’s consumption.

From the “Nation” article:

Chomsky approvingly refers to “analyses by highly qualified
specialists who have studied the full range of evidence available, and
who concluded that executions have numbered at most in the thousands.”
(N., p. 791, column 1)

Chomsky repeatedly ridicules refugee reports, which later turned out
to be accurate. (A generation earlier, other leftists showered
similar contempt on refugee reports from Stalinist Russia, which later
turned out to be accurate.):
[Authors approved by Chomsky] “testify to the extreme
unreliability of refugee reports, and the need to treat them with
great caution, a fact that we and others have discussed elsewhere (cf.
Chomsky: ‘At War with Asia’ on the problems of interpreting reports
of refugees from American bombing in Laos). Refugees are frightened
and defenseless, at the mercy of alien forces. They naturally tend to
report what they believe their interlocutors wish to hear. While
their reports must be considered seriously, care and caution are
necessary. Specifically, refugees questioned by Westerners or Thais
have a vested interest in reporting atrocities on the part of
Cambodian revolutionaries, an obvious fact that no serious reporter
will fail to take into account.” (N, p. 791, column 2)

“It is interesting that a 1.2 million estimate [of the Khmer Rouge
death toll] is attributed by Ponchaud to the American Embassy
(presumably Bangkok), a completely worthless source, as the historical
record amply demonstrates. The figure bears a suggestive similarity
to the prediction by U.S. officials at the war’s end that a million
would die in the next year.” (N., p. 791, columns 2 to 3)

“The ‘slaughter’ by the Khmer Rouge is a Moss-‘New York Times’
creation” (N., p. 792, column 1)

Now, as to whether or not he is a linguistics expert that deserves the treatment he gets Hoedad, that is what I am asking. I do not understand linguistics to the degree that is required. I am merely asking whether he deserves these accolades or whether this is “manufactured consent?”

Finally, Noam and I may both be convinced that a certain set of beliefs is true, etc. but I do not see Fred Smith quoting himself to prove points. Why is it that every debate about Noam Chomsky has a series of quotes that are eventually traced back to zmag.org or Noam himself? See the many quotes that v supplied above?

Okay must run. Will try to get back to this later. AGAIN not at the computer much this week so give me time to respond.

Fred, please do not post lengthy articles but instead include the links.
Kindly edit your post accordingly and adhere to this regulation in future.

Thank you,
Rascal
Moderator, IP Forum

Anyone have any views on Chomsky’s quotes above? I mean they do seem to indicate that Chomsky was certainly downplaying the risk? creating doubt regarding refugee accounts of the atrocities etc? no?

[quote=“porcelainprincess”]What I object to is that Chomsky tears up the trail markers that might lead to conclusions different from his.
My Allergic Reaction to Noam Chomsky[/quote]

Well, I haven’t read much of his stuff, but he seemed to do the above and more in his attack on Skinner’s Verbal Behavior. As I recall, his attack would have been successful without any low blows, but he fought dirty anyway, sometimes taking Skinner out of context and sometimes seemingly deliberately misreading some of Skinner’s book.

And I’ve read that Einstein at least sometimes used to create trail markers that might lead to different conclusions, sometimes trying to show people how they might go about disproving his assertions.

Fred, I agree with you totally. The left can only muddy the debate with their hate-Bush screeching. People like Moore and Franken should never be allowed to voice their opinions because they simply increase the partisanship and rancor between the left and the right. What good is that in this era when the U.S. must present a unified front to its enemies around the world? To so vehemently attack U.S. policies while the country is at war is bordering on sedition, in my mind. Indeed, I would go one step further and say that not only do they fail to contribute meaningfully to debate, but they are also akin to the Nazi propaganda machine, as Bill O’Rielly so perspicaciously observed. I believe that Cheney is absolutely correct when he advises Americans to get their news from FOX. Indeed, Cheney has said that FOX’s reporting most accurately represents what the administration is doing. That most certainly is because FOX is, as it slogan so eloquently states, both FAIR and BALANCED. How many on the left can make that claim? For constructive, rational, and meaningful debate, I think FOX News should be watched by all Americans. To fall under the spell of left-wing nuts and wackos who only seek to poison debate in the U.S. with their rants is dangerous in this day and age.

Ninja, pull your head out of your shell. This has nothing to do with george bush. Chomsky was writing about US foreign policy when Bushlet was still evading service in the National Guard. And you’re completely wrong to compare criticism of a country’s wartime policies to sedition; on the contrary, if a government is engaging in lies, deceit, violations of its own and international laws and various inhumane and barbaric acts, then one should be thankful when the citizens catch on to that, voice their protest, force a change in policies and try to hold wrongdoers accountable. I believe the US invasion of Indochina (not just Vietnam, also secret illegal invasions of Laos and Cambodia) was one of the things that triggered Chomsky’s lifetime of investigating and discussing US foreign policy. Contrary to your simple-minded rant, Chomsky’s writing is not shrill or hate-filled. It may be biased (as are everyone’s views), but it is careful, deliberate and methodical.

Fred, I too appreciated Vork’s good links, although I don’t have time to read them closely now (leaving the country in a few hours). But I still doubt that Chompers denied the killing fields at a time when they were widely known in the west to exist. If he did then that’s nutty. But it’s unfair to judge a man solely based on a few statements he made on one subject 25 years ago when he has written so much. Did you never say anything stupid in your past?

MT:

I think that he was being IRONIC. Am I the only one that gets this stuff on this forum?

Of course one should not judge someone from his statements from 25 years ago. That was when I said I started STARTED to dislike Chomsky. Nothing he has written has changed my mind since then. He is highly selective in his outrages but then so are most on the left. As to stupid things said, hell, I could find those from yesterday, I wouldn’t need to trace those back 25 years.

But my main point: What really is Chomsky doing? saying? and is he doing? saying? it well? effectively? fairly?

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Ninja, pull your head out of your shell. This has nothing to do with George Bush. Chomsky was writing about US foreign policy when Bushlet was still evading service in the National Guard. And you’re completely wrong to compare criticism of a country’s wartime policies to sedition; on the contrary, if a government is engaging in lies, deceit, violations of its own and international laws and various inhumane and barbaric acts, then one should be thankful when the citizens catch on to that, voice their protest, force a change in policies and try to hold wrongdoers accountable. I believe the US invasion of Indochina (not just Vietnam, also secret illegal invasions of Laos and Cambodia) was one of the things that triggered Chomsky’s lifetime of investigating and discussing US foreign policy. Contrary to your simple-minded rant, Chomsky’s writing is not shrill or hate-filled. It may be biased (as are everyone’s views), but it is careful, deliberate and methodical.

[/quote]

Mother Theresa,

It’s Bionic Ninja, not Ninja.

Your reading of my post is simple-minded, completely missing the irony. But part of the responsibility lies with me because I didn’t use any emoticons to signal the sarcasm. But I am not sure which emoticon would best express that what I wrote was not a reflection of my political views. Rather, my intent was to poke fun at Fred by illustrating how conservative pundits haven’t offered much in the way of contributions to reasonable and meaningful debate themselves. As you may or may not know, Coulter has accused liberals of being traitors, Hannity has placed liberalism alongside terrorism and despotism as evils to be destroyed, and O’Reilly has likened Moore to a nazi. I did not make this stuff up; these are actually things that the pundits on the right say about the left. And mostly under the FOX rubric of being FAIR and BALANCED. I don’t see how these smears can be seen as reasonable and meaningful contributions to debate. And I am glad that you don’t either.

Personally, I hate it whenever a liberal commentator emerges or writes a book and someone on the right piously asks, “Are they helping the tone of the debate.” They seldom, if ever, turn the question back on right-wing commentators and ask if they are helping “debate.” Such was the case when Franken launched his radio show on Air America. Rather than asking the right to tone down its rhetoric, they would rather the left be silent and not have their say–all in the name of keeping debate civil. Unfortunately, this seems to me to only help conservatives: they can continue to attack, misrepresent, and belittle liberals without anybody on the left offering a rebuttal. And if a person on the left still has the audacity to defend their beliefs on radio, in books, or on film, it is they who are cast as the ones poisoning debate. Fred’s question about Moore and Chomsky contributing to debates struck me as a question in this vein. I was simply parroting conservative pundits to illustrate that the state of debate is as much their fault as any liberal. Indeed, I believe it is mostly their fault. And they should not be held to a different, lower standard than the left.

Peace and Freedom, Mother Theresa.

[quote=“fred smith”]MT:

I think that he was being IRONIC. Am I the only one that gets this stuff on this forum?

[/quote]

Didn’t see your post there Fred. Hey, at least you understand me. See, Mother Theresa? Fred knows I was being ironic.

“NO CHOMSKY, NO!!!”

“Chomp, chomp, Chomsky… that’s what I do!”

Nobody can really say they’re terribly surprised by Chomsky, and most people probably simply tune him out. He’s not particularly easy to listen to in the first place – most people either decide early on that they don’t agree with him (whether or not they understand him) or they decide not to even bother struggling with understanding him.

For a language guy, he sure is a pain in the ass to understand.