New incident with china airlines in japan

[quote=“Gelangweilt”]well whatever, but 2 incidents within 4 weeks basically is enough to drive me away as a customer.

and regarding the incident in japan last month: who says it wasn’t a maintenance problem? loose bolt means someone didnt tighten the thing enough? ( I am no aircraft expert, but thats what my logic tells me)[/quote]
No, some bolts are designed to be adjusted at periodic levels, and are designed to stay put between adjustments. A design defect, as has been reported in this case, can result in the bolt locking not working properly even if tightened correctly.

[quote=“Gelangweilt”]knowing how some so called ‘engineers’ work in IT industry here, I have not really the faith anymore to believe that aircarft engineers here have a better (or more strict) attitude.
sloppiness that is in my point of view.[/quote]
The aircraft industry is highly regulated, and cannot be compared to the IT industry.

As a person who actually went through flight school and has logged some hours of flight time, I can back up what Truant is saying about aircraft flying with cracks.

As a part of our walk-around before even getting into an aircraft, we have to check for cracks in the surface of the plane. You will, before any given flight, find at least 3 - 4 cracks in the fuselage, generally around the vertical and horizontal stabilizers. However, these cracks are usually only a few centimeters long and only in the skin of the fuselage, which is at most, millimeters thick. This in no way affects your flight. Only if there is a gash in the surface of the plane will you cancel your flight and have the plane sent in for unscheduled maintenance. And this is in two to four seaters we’re talking about. The cracks come from the constant exposure to various temperatures and, mainly, the impact of landing. They pose no threat to the plane. I pointed out the cracks to my first instructor on the first walk-around I did and he said they were completely normal. Now, if something as small and fragile as a two seat Cessna can fly with cracks in the surface of the plane without you having to worry about the plane splitting in half, imagine how little threat a crack on the skin of a Jumbo jet will pose. And do you know why they pose no threat? Because the frame of the plane is what keeps it from falling apart. The skin is only there to protect the passengers and to cover up all the wires/circuits/gears needed to fly the plane.

And don’t forget, the Concorde would often crack the skin outside of the craft and inside when it landed or took off. But they weren’t sent in for emergeny maintenance because of it. And that had nothing to do with the Concorde that exploded.

I started my college education in engineering, and due to this and other reasons know professionals in both aerospace engineering and the IT industry. I have faith in all of the engineers I know who work in aerospace, without fail, and have no doubts whatsoever as to their attitudes or professionalism. In fact, if I had to stake my life on the reliability of the work done by my engineering friends, I’d choose the aerospace chaps over the IT boys any day.

Okay then… so we’re accepting that small cracks are totally normal on an aircraft, as long as they are within closely regulated parameters… both Truant and rob_the_canuk have gone to great lengths to explain this… since these cracks are so normal, what nobody’s addressed yet (and to get back on topic) is the question from my previous post…

[quote=“plasmatron”][quote=“Truant”]
Ironically, a crack is found during maintenance, the aircraft grounded, and people get all upset. I guess aircraft are not allowed to break down away from their home base without it making the news. [/quote]

If we assume for now that your claim that all aircraft fly laden with cracks day in day out as a matter of routine is true, for a crack to be serious enough to ground the aircraft in Japan, we’re by definition not talking about a “run of the mill” type of crack anymore then are we?..[/quote]

why then did China Air’s ground staff not pick it up, whereas their Japanese colleagues did?.. (Tommy525’s “could have happened on the way over” hypothesis notwithstanding…)

I share Dragonbones’s confidence in aerospace professional’s er… professionalism, but I remain unconvinced that the China Air and the people who work for them are up to the same standards as some of their aerospace industry colleagues… their undeniably abysmal track record speaks for itself…:idunno:

China Airlines has lost a lot of credibility in the minds of the travelling public. After the Nagoya and the Taipei crashes. And of course the Penghu 747 breakup. I myself have not been on a CAL plane in over ten years. But had been a regular customer of theirs for hundreds of flights in Taiwan and to the USA and Europe.

The 747 breakup was an airframe failure which is exceedingly rare, but has been known to have happened . That particular airplane had been in CAL service for over 20 years and in fact was on its last revenue flight before delivery to its soon to be new owner (Orient Thai). The plane broke apart because a repair job done for a tail strike many years ago lost its integrity. MUch like the 747 breakup in Japan some years before. IN that instance the rear pressure bulkhead gave way. And that too was repaired after a tail strike by JAL pilots on an occasion way before the breakup.

Tail strikes are pilot error, but are more common then regularly reported in the news. Unfortunately , even Boeing has not been able to make the damage “go away”. Because in both of those instances Boeing engineers repaired the planes in question. But they crashed . Admittedly many many years later, but . They should have had their service lives way shortened after a major airframe repair. The fuselage acts as a pressure cylinder and its integrity at high altitudes is very important. LIke a balloon . It can POP, just like the CAL 747 over penghu. It broke into at least 3 major pieces. A lot of pressure is exerted on the fuselage at 35,000 feet, when the inside pressure altitude is about 5000 feet.

I personally believe that jets over 20 years old should be grounded. They should not continue flying because the airframe has really had enough. There is talk that newer jets will be designed with a shorter design life. Propeller planes fly safely even after 40 years because they are never subjected to the amount of stress a jet is. IN the Industry, many major airlines now aspire to retire jets after 15 years of regular service. Jets with very low time could fly longer. EVA for example has a stated policy to retire (or sell off) passenger jets with over 15 years service. And a lot of their 747 have been converted to cargo aircraft. IN a cargo plane the only pressurized area remains the cockpit and part of the front fuselage. The rest become unpressurized and therefore no longer is subject to quite the same stress levels. Their 767s have been sold off. MD 11 have become cargo as well. CAL should have done the same with its ill fated flight. But was following international norms associated with other major airlines at the time. The repaired section gave way without warning. There was no way it could have been seen before the flight. The copilots cursory glance around the aircraft before flight did not reveal any major flaws to his eyes . MAYBE he missed something? Donno.

The Taipei crash seems to have been a stall upon trying to regain altitude after a miss approach.

Miss approaches are dangerous. And stalls can happen on a go around. As evidenced by the very recent plane crash in phuket. Especially on a loaded aircraft thats at its upper weight limits. Pilots are supposed to be trained in handling go arounds. And they should be pretty safe. However, I personally think that Airbus aircraft are “underpowered” as opposed to boeing aircraft and have a smaller margin of safety in a critical situation like a go around.(the crash in phuket was a md82 and nothing about airbus ) Thats just my uneducated opinion though. But the A320 for example have engines with a much less rated thrust then its competitor the 757 (which has engines from the 747). However, in the market place the A320 wins and the 757 is now history because those big engines gulzzled gas as opposed to the CFM or the IAE2500 of the A320. But in a go around, Id rather be in a 757 !!

The Nagoya crash happened because of the man/machine interface issue. The airplane was doing its own thing and the pilots another (and not knowing what the airplane was doing because they were unaware they had inadvertantly bumped the TOGA switch). When the pilots realized their situation it was already too late. They were in a stall. And all power was in fact lost at one point even though the engines were on full .

This is a very simplified explanation. But you can read all about the Nagoya crash, the Taipei crash , the Penghu crash etc.

Pardon any mistakes I may have made as I am just going by memory here.

Suffice to say that those crashes could occur with another major carrier. Airbus aircraft have had a few accidents due to the man/machine interaction and its design philosophies. And even the latest TAM crash was due to a misunderstanding of the Airbus flight criteria.

CAL have been most unlucky and they should do whatever EVA is doing . Lets hope they dont have any major crashes for a very long long time.

I think they should rename themselves as some other carriers do that have a bad record.

TAL anyone?

frankly , I personally would be a bit more scared then usual in a CAL plane just because, but hey I am only human

But credit and/or blame should be apportioned properly and CAL doesnt deserve to be unfairly bashed.

[quote=“plasmatron”]Okay then… so we’re accepting that small cracks are totally normal on an aircraft, as long as they are within closely regulated parameters… both Truant and rob_the_canuk have gone to great lengths to explain this… since these cracks are so normal, what nobody’s addressed yet (and to get back on topic) is the question from my previous post…

[quote=“plasmatron”][quote=“Truant”]
Ironically, a crack is found during maintenance, the aircraft grounded, and people get all upset. I guess aircraft are not allowed to break down away from their home base without it making the news. [/quote]

If we assume for now that your claim that all aircraft fly laden with cracks day in day out as a matter of routine is true, for a crack to be serious enough to ground the aircraft in Japan, we’re by definition not talking about a “run of the mill” type of crack anymore then are we?..[/quote]

why then did China Air’s ground staff not pick it up, whereas their Japanese colleagues did?.. (Tommy525’s “could have happened on the way over” hypothesis notwithstanding…)[/quote]
It’s a fair question. Having seen what gets reported in the media vs the actual facts, I must admit I’m pretty skeptical these days about media reports.
Anyway, a quick google search found this:

[quote] TAIPEI, Sept. 21 (AP) - (Kyodo)—A 77-centimeter crack found at the bottom of a China Airlines jet in Japan was caused by ground maintenance crew members who had scraped the underbelly of the plane on its tail, local media reported Friday, quoting Taiwan’s Transportation Minister Tsai Duei.

Tsai concluded that poor ground maintenance was to blame for the crack, which grounded the plane, but did not elaborate as to where the scraping had occurred or when, the reports said. [/quote]
If that report is accurate, it’s possible the incident actually happened in Japan, and at any rate was likely caused by contract baggage handlers, not by CAL engineering staff as you’ve been pretty quick to imply.

[quote=“rob_the_canuck”]Now, if something as small and fragile as a two seat Cessna can fly with cracks in the surface of the plane without you having to worry about the plane splitting in half, imagine how little threat a crack on the skin of a Jumbo jet will pose. And do you know why they pose no threat? Because the frame of the plane is what keeps it from falling apart. The skin is only there to protect the passengers and to cover up all the wires/circuits/gears needed to fly the plane.

And don’t forget, the Concorde would often crack the skin outside of the craft and inside when it landed or took off. But they weren’t sent in for emergeny maintenance because of it. And that had nothing to do with the Concorde that exploded.[/quote]
Just to correct the bit in bold. The skin is indeed a major structural component of an aircraft. It serves a number of structural functions but in particular it transfers loads and stresses to other structural members (i.e. Ribs, Frames, Stringers, Doublers, Spars, Beams etc). Also, a major structural function of the skin (of pressurized aircraft) is to maintain the pressure differential between the cabin and ambient air. We’re talking a few PSI, but over such a large area (i.e. the “SI”) you have lots of force (i.e. the “P”).

I started my college education in engineering, and due to this and other reasons know professionals in both aerospace engineering and the IT industry. I have faith in all of the engineers I know who work in aerospace, without fail, and have no doubts whatsoever as to their attitudes or professionalism. In fact, if I had to stake my life on the reliability of the work done by my engineering friends, I’d choose the aerospace chaps over the IT boys any day.[/quote]

good to know. :slight_smile:
some solutions you see in IT are very homebrew and semiprofessional… :wink:

[quote=“Truant”][quote=“Gelangweilt”]well whatever, but 2 incidents within 4 weeks basically is enough to drive me away as a customer.

and regarding the incident in japan last month: who says it wasn’t a maintenance problem? loose bolt means someone didnt tighten the thing enough? ( I am no aircraft expert, but thats what my logic tells me)[/quote]
No, some bolts are designed to be adjusted at periodic levels, and are designed to stay put between adjustments. A design defect, as has been reported in this case, can result in the bolt locking not working properly even if tightened correctly.
[/quote]

then why was there NO OTHR plane from any other airline taht had teh same problem?
i read a follow up on this and during the boeing launched investigation they found this problem on no other plane from this type they were investigating.
strange uh? :unamused:

[quote=“plasmatron”]Okay then… so we’re accepting that small cracks are totally normal on an aircraft, as long as they are within closely regulated parameters… both Truant and rob_the_canuk have gone to great lengths to explain this… since these cracks are so normal, what nobody’s addressed yet (and to get back on topic) is the question from my previous post…

[quote=“plasmatron”][quote=“Truant”]
Ironically, a crack is found during maintenance, the aircraft grounded, and people get all upset. I guess aircraft are not allowed to break down away from their home base without it making the news. [/quote]

If we assume for now that your claim that all aircraft fly laden with cracks day in day out as a matter of routine is true, for a crack to be serious enough to ground the aircraft in Japan, we’re by definition not talking about a “run of the mill” type of crack anymore then are we?..[/quote]

why then did China Air’s ground staff not pick it up, whereas their Japanese colleagues did?.. (Tommy525’s “could have happened on the way over” hypothesis notwithstanding…)

I share Dragonbones’s confidence in aerospace professional’s er… professionalism, but I remain unconvinced that the China Air and the people who work for them are up to the same standards as some of their aerospace industry colleagues… their undeniably abysmal track record speaks for itself…:idunno:[/quote]

agree 100%.
plus, wasnt it just 5 years ago that a plane from CI on way to HK just disintegrated in midlfight? all people dead.
i start thinking about cracks in airplanes again…

(update: havent read Tommy525 post yet when i typed this about a bad repair job being the cause the for this tragedy)

but maybe it’s karma’s way saying to CI to stop their business. if all those incidents are NOT CI fault as some claim here…
exploding planes, cracks whatever. should make people think.

[quote=“Gelangweilt”][quote=“Truant”][quote=“Gelangweilt”]well whatever, but 2 incidents within 4 weeks basically is enough to drive me away as a customer.

and regarding the incident in japan last month: who says it wasn’t a maintenance problem? loose bolt means someone didnt tighten the thing enough? ( I am no aircraft expert, but thats what my logic tells me)[/quote]
No, some bolts are designed to be adjusted at periodic levels, and are designed to stay put between adjustments. A design defect, as has been reported in this case, can result in the bolt locking not working properly even if tightened correctly.
[/quote]

then why was there NO OTHR plane from any other airline taht had teh same problem?
I read a follow up on this and during the boeing launched investigation they found this problem on no other plane from this type they were investigating.
strange uh? :unamused:[/quote]
Actually, there have been at least TWENTY THREE other 737s around the world with this same problem, and a couple resulted in the same wing skin puncturing. CAL was unfortunate to have the damage located directly above a running engine.
The FAA has since issued an Airworthiness Directive to all 737 NG operators.

see this discussion about the Okinawa fire.

pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288717

[quote=“Truant”][quote=“rob_the_canuck”]Now, if something as small and fragile as a two seat Cessna can fly with cracks in the surface of the plane without you having to worry about the plane splitting in half, imagine how little threat a crack on the skin of a Jumbo jet will pose. And do you know why they pose no threat? Because the frame of the plane is what keeps it from falling apart. The skin is only there to protect the passengers and to cover up all the wires/circuits/gears needed to fly the plane.

And don’t forget, the Concorde would often crack the skin outside of the craft and inside when it landed or took off. But they weren’t sent in for emergeny maintenance because of it. And that had nothing to do with the Concorde that exploded.[/quote]
Just to correct the bit in bold. The skin is indeed a major structural component of an aircraft. It serves a number of structural functions but in particular it transfers loads and stresses to other structural members (i.e. Ribs, Frames, Stringers, Doublers, Spars, Beams etc). Also, a major structural function of the skin (of pressurized aircraft) is to maintain the pressure differential between the cabin and ambient air. We’re talking a few PSI, but over such a large area (i.e. the “SI”) you have lots of force (i.e. the “P”).[/quote]

Ah, right, I had forgotten the load bearing part, thank you. Been a few years since ground school and I was in the cockpit.

The mentality of SOME airlines in Asia (certainly not all) is all about appearances: supermodel flight attendants, in-flight entertainment systems with about 200 PC games or whatever, business class fold-out queen-sized beds… Even many Taiwanese I’ve talked to (adult students doing “Airlines” discussions in conversation classes over the years) echo those sentiments exactly–“beautiful girls as flight attendants!” is the answer I still get every time when asking about priorities. But safety issues can be more of a concern. Most notably, China Airlines and Korean Airlines have had the most problems in the past 10-15 years. Anyone who has flown US airlines (United, NorthWORST) know that they can be kind of bare-bones by comparison, and the flight attendants won’t ever (shouldn’t ever) do a swimsuit calendar. But the safety records are better. Best yet? The “good” Asian airlines: Cathay, Singapore, Malaysian.

China Scarelines–never flown them in 14 years here…never will.

well i stick with my karma theory (so many hints/accidents should tell them stop operating the airline) and i wont use them again.

regarding the asians (well at least taiwans men) opinion about the flight attendants:
you are spot on. thats waht all my friends here were saying: go fly with CI, they got the best flight attendants. (on a side note i didnt think they were particulary pretty, singapore is way better and safer as well) :wink:

Yeah like the one that tried taking off on the wrong runway in Taiwan, and crashed into parked machinery killing passengers and destroying a plane.

I recall the crew claimed that the runway signs were not very clear, nor were the signs showing that runway was closed. Bit of a he-said-she-said story, but given how sloppily many things are done in Taiwan, I don’t think it’s impossible they didn’t do a stellar job with the signs. Viz was also very poor at the time of that incident. Yes you can blame the crew for deciding to take off in poor conditions, but let’s face it, they are under huge pressure from the airline and also the airport to fly on time.

I haven’t flown on CI for over at least 10 years and don’t think I will ever fly with them again.

I recall the crew claimed that the runway signs were not very clear, nor were the signs showing that runway was closed. Bit of a he-said-she-said story, but given how sloppily many things are done in Taiwan, I don’t think it’s impossible they didn’t do a stellar job with the signs. Viz was also very poor at the time of that incident. Yes you can blame the crew for deciding to take off in poor conditions, but let’s face it, they are under huge pressure from the airline and also the airport to fly on time.

I haven’t flown on CI for over at least 10 years and don’t think I will ever fly with them again.[/quote]

That is my recall as well. The runway was poorly marked. Communication from the tower was unclear and the SIN aircrew neglected to verify why an instrument was not lining up with the runway infront of them. Visibility & wind speeds were within limits.

BTW: I think Lufthansa is still doing the safety work for CI. My last flight over CNY last year there was a Lufthansa guy in the seat next to me.

[quote=“Elegua”] I recall the crew claimed that the runway signs were not very clear, nor were the signs showing that runway was closed. Bit of a he-said-she-said story, but given how sloppily many things are done in Taiwan, I don’t think it’s impossible they didn’t do a stellar job with the signs. Viz was also very poor at the time of that incident. Yes you can blame the crew for deciding to take off in poor conditions, but let’s face it, they are under huge pressure from the airline and also the airport to fly on time.

.[/quote]

Singapore Airlines accepted full resonsibility when it was shown [color=blue]that the pilots had in fact missed a safety pre-flight briefing[/color] due to the closed runway and that the pilots who has in fact flown in on 10 previous flights thru that ariport had in fact misread the airport runway lights.

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Singapore Airlines accepted full resonsibility when it was shown [color=blue]that the pilots had in fact missed a safety pre-flight briefing[/color] due to the closed runway and that the pilots who has in fact flown in on 10 previous flights thru that ariport had in fact misread the airport runway lights.[/quote]
I’ll take your word for this, but will still fly SQ over CI every time, just based on the number of incidents they have per million miles flown, over the last 20 years or so. In my mind CI, although they indeed seem to be taking steps to remedy their problems, probably have a long way left to go. I won’t say I will never fly with them again, but it isn’t going to be anytime soon. They will have to fly incident-free for a long time to get off my blacklist. A very long time.

That would make me feel better only if you were the co-pilot. :wink: