New website: CHINA RISING

Politics Taiwan Politics
81

Is that so, huh? Just who are you calling pro-independence? Sure, we’ve got our share, but there are plenty around who have less than black and white veiws. You guys keep coming over here and making these comments about how everybody here is naive and pro-independence. I think you’re too thin-skinned and quick to judge. Just because you’ve been challenged by a couple of people who took the same belligerent attitude as you when presenting their views doesn’t make everybody over here blindly pro-independence. All of these generalizations you keep making give me the impression that you don’t have any substantial arguments to make and that you are just trying (clumsily I might add) to bait people:

Excuse my French, but if you guys stopped stroking each other’s cocks and actually engaged in a debate consisting of more than repeating the same lines over and over again, you might get a better reception.

You guys seem pretty sensitive to the charge thay you’re doing nothing but spewing PRC propaganda. Maybe you should have a look at your own forums. Then you might understand why people are throwing this word “propaganda” around when talking about you. I’m left with the impression that you guys are just running a re-post site for China Daily articles. I’d say you’ve managed to capture the full flavour of that rag, which is no flavour at all. I don’t say that just because all of it is just nonsense propaganda, but because most of it just isn’t newsworthy or interesting. Look at all the articles posted by Cheapshot. Most of them have zero or just one or two posts below them. Captured the flavour of a mainland newspaper indeed. Just like the original papers, nobody reads those posts and nobody is interested in replying. It’s completely up to you if you want to litter your site with articles nobody cares to read or comment on, but such a practice isn’t going to attract intelligent posts.

82

Damn, that was a pointed response Jive Turkey. :astonished:

83

That is utter, utter bollocks! :loco:

Many posters, including some of the ones taken to task by the china-rising crowd here, are accused all the time of complaining and griping too much about Taiwan, its unfair laws and DPP xenophobia!

Sheeesh!

84

First post eh? hehe. Please welcome this newbie here to Forumosa! applause

Oh, what now? (interrupted) fireworks-shooo-shooo-kaboom applause

Alright. Nevermind.
Well visiting C-R website is kinda disturbing… I’m not against it just because it’s created and maintained by people from PRC. It’s just that the feeling of pro-PRC propaganda seems to be filling the atmosphere. Xiao and Cheap certainly tried to remain neutral, but ha, I’m sorry it didn’t work. The “stiffness” is still there apparently, no matter how neutral the words you’ve chosen to use. :noway: Anyways, a bit harsher?

C-R you make sick. (not aiming at anyone btw. just the stuff being posted) :raspberry:

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

85

Nice work Jive,

Been busy and not had time to watch this unfold.

[quote]
You guys seem pretty sensitive to the charge thay you’re doing nothing but spewing PRC propaganda. [/quote]

It seems to me that it’s very common to self censor when you’re posting on a web that might be discussed and viewed in China . . . now why would that be?

I think that really is a fundamental difference between Forumosa and China Rising. At least here we really don’t have to worry about the heat closing us down.

Of course these guys resent our relative freedom . . they can’t say that of course because it would undermine their argument.

HG

86

Excuse me. But many of the forumosa members who got on our forum are currently actively engaged in debate. While you left early because you apparently couldn’t handle the heat, plus your “facts” were obviously unsubstantiated lies and couldn’t hold up. Face the truth.

Well, that’s because you’re a paranoid and biased person. If you would really take a closer look, you’d see that there are an equal amount of articles from the BBC, CNN, Asia times (HK based western source), and others.

That’s because many of the articles are about economic news. I didn’t post them specifically to get replies, but to simply inform.

Well, perhaps if you would finally contribute something intelligent and worthwhile, rather than lies, fantastical impersonations of Asian women and anti-China propaganda, you’d actually get a more rewarding debating experience.

87

[quote]It seems to me that it’s very common to self censor when you’re posting on a web that might be discussed and viewed in China . . . now why would that be?

I think that really is a fundamental difference between Forumosa and China Rising. At least here we really don’t have to worry about the heat closing us down. [/quote]

Please name one incident where someone’s comments on CR has been censored or edited?

88

LOL don’t take me for a fool. I don’t have a problem with Asian women disagreeing with me. For godsakes, we’re talking about a population of several hundred million, and I am sure I disagree with everyone of them depending on the topic.

But it’s another thing to fabricate a character, claim that she is a local when she obviously is not, and then make completely un-factual and unsubstantiated slander.

If we cannot even trust the veracity and truth of a person’s very “existence”, how can we trust the honesty of their “experiences”?

89

Well, I never planned to come in here to change views. But apparently, anything that does not support extremist TI ideology is nothing but “Chicom propaganda”. Talk about close minded.

I’m not even from mainland China.

90

Hands up poll, who here are pro-independence, how many are pro-status quo?

I probably don’t even need to ask.

Kategelan, what is utter bollocks is your inability to carefully digest my words. Taidu is Taidu, it is neither the Republic of China nor the DPP. Simply because you are critical of the RoC laws or the DPP doesn’t change the unflagging support for separatism here.

Jive Turkey, I am calling you pro-independence. Everyone here who was either status quo or reunification has long been driven out of the local politics section, excepting AC_Dropout. Tell me I’m wrong, and I’ll tell you that your blind. So please, STFU.

91

I’ve been greatly disappointed at my experience on this forum. Members here are extremely intolerant and prone to demonize anybody who disagrees with their views as propaganda stooges, reguardless of their real-life experiences. The irony is that many here have been isolated in TI extremist political circles so long that they can no longer concieve of any reality outside of their own. This is the ultimate hypocrisy.

92

It’s ironic to hear you say that, given that as soon as someone strongly disagrees with you you accuse them of being brainwashed by anti-PRC propaganda, and if they claim to be Chinese and disagree, you accuse them of lying about their ethnicity.

93

Although I would disagree with your label, I’ve been called worse and it doesn’t really bother me that you would call me pro-independence. Please tell me, just why is it that you consider me pro-independence?

I will restate my position once again. It is a simple one, yet IMO, one of principle. The only people who have the right to decide the future of Taiwan and other areas administered from Taipei are citizens of the ROC. If you think allowing these people to decide for themselves equates to being pro-independence, then that probably tells us more about your views than mine. What are you afraid of, that if you had to convince them without guns that they wouldn’t hear your case?

As an added condition, if the Taiwanese did indeed choose independence, I don’t believe my country should help them if they have not made a good faith effort to prepare themselves for war. If they aren’t willing to send their sons to fight and perhaps die, then I see no reason for US blood to be spilled for them.

You guys seem intent on oversimplifying this issue and labelling people. Where on this site or any other have I stated that I think Taiwan should be independent? Nowhere. It aint’ my call, and unless you are an ROC citizen, it ain’t yours either. Although I have my own opinions about independence and unification, the only choice I really have in the matter is voting for candidates in the US who I think believe in supporting Taiwanese people’s right of self determination, perhaps even with force.

If the Taiwanese decide to form a union with the mainland, then more power to them. I think there are some good reasons for doing so. If they decide they want official independence and are ready to make real sacrifices to achieve that, then I personally believe that my country should support them. If they just want to maintain the status quo (oh, what a slippery idea), then I believe my country should do its best to help maintain that status quo. However, if the mainlanders try to force the Taiwanese into unification, then I firmly believe that the US should do everything in it’s power to turn back such an invasion and then do enough damage to China so that it doesn’t try it again in the near future.

There you have it. Pick away. If you think believing in self-determination somehow equates to being pro-independence, then I believe that just lays bare your own insecurity about China’s influence and attractiveness (or lack thereof).

94

The feeling is not mutual. After reading your site’s little manifesto and your accusations toward my wife, I had no high expectations for you at all. You have performed exactly as I expected, which is poorly. I haven’t been disappointed, just disgusted.

I have no idea what you’re basing this assertion on. Sure, we’ve got some people with strong views. So does every site.

Sweeping?

What are you on about? I don’t give a damn about your “real-life experiences,” mate. They are unverifiable. You can rant as long as you like about “I have XXX experience in XXX,” but why should we believe you? If you can’t make a pointed argument based on checkable facts, then don’t make it. Relating experiences is fine, but you seem to base all of your arguments solely on what you claim to have experienced; I can’t speak for others, but I need a bit more evidence than that. I would also add that if I were to just consider what other Chinese have told me about their “experiences” in minority areas, especially Xinjiang, I wouldn’t believe much of what you’ve written about your experiences.

BTW, are we ever going to see any of the “insults” or “slander” that you say my wife posted? I read but couldn’t find any. I think I asked you to post some links, but you never did. Are you going to explain to us how it is that you “just know” that she isn’t Chinese? I’m looking forward to seeing you dig that hole.

Yes, and I noticed that you wrote on your site that you are a US citizen. That being the case, I would suggest that you tone your rants down and just pull up a chair in the observers’ gallery; Taiwan’s future is no more your business than it is mine. Otherwise, I suggest that you resettle and take steps to put yourself in the process of acquiring ROC citizenship and give up your US citizenship. I wouldn’t want you to be in a situation of conflicting loyalties. Then again, I recall you posting that you’ve never even been to Taiwan. Maybe you’d better visit at least once before making such a life decision or condoning the use of violence to force Taiwan into unification.

95

I haven’t written you off as a fool just yet. Hot-blooded, immature, rude and uncivilized, perhaps, but not yet a fool.

Links? Proof? Basis for any of these comments? I didn’t think so. We can all say the same about you. How do we know you are who you say you are? How do we know anything you’ve said about yourself is true? We don’t, but you don’t see us jumping for the “liar liar pants on fire” button after every post of yours.

Let me get this straight: if a poster who claims to be of XX identity or background doesn’t comform to the stereotypes you assign to that identity or background, then that person doesn’t exist? You sure live in a simple world.

96

[quote=“cheapfujianese”]I’ve been greatly disappointed at my experience on this forum. Members here are extremely intolerant and prone to demonize anybody who disagrees with their views as propaganda stooges, reguardless of their real-life experiences. The irony is that many here have been isolated in TI extremist political circles so long that they can no longer concieve of any reality outside of their own. This is the ultimate hypocrisy.[/quote]Let me point a few things out to you. First off, this board has no agenda. Discussion is not guided or steered in any direction. There’s no ‘big hand’ to push discourse in the ‘correct’ direction. That makes things a bit unpredictable, and things don’t always go the way you planned. Almost never do actually. If you’re used to a more restricted or guided setting, it may be disconcerting.
Second, if everyone is disagreeing with you, it may be worth entertaining the idea that you might actually be wrong. Your real-life experience may be valid to you, but not everyone has had the same experiences.
Third, no-one dragged you here to debate. No-one is pointing a gun at you to coerce you into a particular opinion, or dissuade you from expressing one. You can come here and express your views (as long as they are not personal or discriminatory or hateful in nature), but don’t demand that everyone, or even anyone, agree with you.
Fourth, how you behave will affect how you are treated. If you treat others with disrespect then expect the same, even if it occurred on another forum. If you don’t like that, you can always leave. See point #3.

97

[quote]cmdjing wrote:

[quote]Xiao and Cheap, it was a valiant attempt to interject some more perspectives to the China Rising website, but you fished in the wrong pond. This place has long since become little more than a Taidu fishfry[/quote].

That is utter, utter bollocks!

Many posters, including some of the ones taken to task by the China-rising crowd here, are accused all the time of complaining and griping too much about Taiwan, its unfair laws and DPP xenophobia! [/quote]

And a reply…

[quote=“cmdjing”]Hands up poll, who here are pro-independence, how many are pro-status quo?

I probably don’t even need to ask.

Kategelan, what is utter bollocks is your inability to carefully digest my words. Taidu is Taidu, it is neither the Republic of China nor the DPP. Simply because you are critical of the RoC laws or the DPP doesn’t change the unflagging support for separatism here.

Jive Turkey, I am calling you pro-independence. Everyone here who was either status quo or reunification has long been driven out of the local politics section, excepting AC_Dropout. Tell me I’m wrong, and I’ll tell you that your blind. So please, STFU.[/quote]

No actually, I think you didn’t digest my words! I haven’t been to any fishfries let alone any Taidu ones. At a Taidu fishfry I guess they’d talk about Taidu and the glories of a free Taiwan all the time! And I don’t see that! What I read here is quite a bit more nuanced that that.

My primary disagreement is with your belief that Xiao and Cheap made a ‘valiant attempt’ to ‘interject (sic) some more perspectives to the China Rising website’. These are the views the China-Rising forum was set up to promote:

I think I said it before… a forum with aims that explicit is hardly a vehicle for open and dispassionate debate, nor - by definition - can it easily accommodate viewpoints which might want to question some or all of the assumptions underlying the China-Rising position.

For what it’s worth, I’m in favour of self-determination for Taiwan and since I recognise that Taiwan has pretty much chosen to live with the ‘status-quo’ (however we understand that) I think that makes me pro status quo! :smiley: I think that too much energy goes into Cross-Strait wrangling when Taiwan should instead be making itself strong internally with greater social solidarity and solid social democratic politics. In local Taiwanese terms, I think that makes me [color=violet]purple [/color]rather than [color=green]green [/color]or [color=blue]blue[/color]! :rainbow:

This website - and hey you’ve been a poster longer than I have - has no agenda! The opinions here, for what they’re worth, are those of some people. The posters are mostly (but not exclusively) ‘foreigners’ who mostly (but not exclusively) live in Taiwan!

Of course, perhaps anyone who thinks that for historical, cultural and practical reasons Taiwan should have the chance to decide for itself is, by definition, one of those Taiwanese Independence Extremists that keep threatening to ruin everything!

98

cheapfujianese wrote:

Dont be guilty of what you accuse others of. I take strong exception to the following three things that youve stated;

  1. Anti-PRC, anti-China bias in western media. On the contrary, the media in many western countries is quite fair and favourable to the PRC. By contrast, when I lived in China the media continually villified Taiwan, its leader and anybody in Taiwan or around the world who objects to Beijings tactics. This is why there`s almost no divergence of opinion amongst the people on the other side of the straits.

  2. Labelling people Taiwan independence extremists. Extremism is pointing 500 missiles at a nation. Many forumosans support the Taiwanese right to consent to any changes in their status. Neither one of us are Taiwanese citizens and are ineligible to cast a vote. Its not up to us decide the future of Taiwan, its up to them.

  3. White people look down on other races. I think this speaks for itself.

This is a very free and independent website without a “mission” statement. Sometimes the rhetoric is emotionally charged, but hey what forum isnt. Put away the negatives stereotypes and youll get more out of it.

99

Taichungmafia,

  1. Some on this site claim that the mainlanders opinion range from indifferent to patroitic. Yet you counter thier claim and still wish to pertetuate the belief that the Chinese are mindless drones. “Why do you hate the Chinese?”

  2. Oh you mean people like me. Well thanks for the encouragement. “Why do you hate the Chinese?”

  3. I think it is fair to say all ethnicities are willing to put down other ethnicities when it suits their needs. But the question remains “Why do you target the Chinese as the focus of your animosity?”

100

What a stupid question. You ask this every time you have nothing else to write. As if believing that 23 million Chinese people should be allowed to choose their own fate somehow equates to “hating the Chinese.”

I’ll make it clear to you. I don’t “hate the Chinese.” What I do hate is blind, one China ideology. What I do hate are threats of violence made against 23 million people who pose no threat to the mainland.