Newspaper "Survivor" - Vote One Off The Island!

Hi Dummies!

First of all to the dummy who said:

So basically what you’re saying is you don’t read at all?

Uh, dummy, I think when you study Chinese, you might be reading SOMETHING…PERHAPS…IN A CLASSROOM…PEOPLE HAVE A TENDANCY TO READ THINGS…

And dummy II who said:

Just how much Chinese class does that NT$15 buy you Poop? Seems to me a small price to pay to have some idea about what’s going on in Taiwan every day.

ok, math…

365days
x15nt
5475nt per year…
3 months of Chinese class:
10,000nt…
well, my little poop, it seems like it costs MONEY to buy a paper, you little doggie poop, you.

Also there’s something called TV news…have you heard of it? It’s FREE…and I can practice Chinese. Poop on you, dummy.

Oh, by the way, dummies, I KNOW my name is DUMB…poop.

quote:
Originally posted by dummy my poo poo: Also there's something called TV news...have you heard of it? It's FREE...

Where in Taiwan exactly is cable TV free? I’ll bet you’re STEALING it … unless you ponce around a friend’s house and watch HIS TV, of course.

Benefits. You know, benefits. Like better job opportunities as a result of having stuff like that on your resume.

To monkey dummy:

Hi Dummy! You don’t need cable to watch the news! Dummy!

How long have you been in Taiwan, dummy?!

Now please stop bothering me with all your little dummy poops. Dummies.
Poop.

You seem really bitter about the Taipei Times. Were you fired from there? Or turned down for a job?

–pooper scooper

Hi Dummy,

First, I just can’t resist talking about the fact that you are imitating my name because you’re not creative enough to think up anything original.

Second, no, every time I see job ads for the English newspapers here, I just think, “What kind of dummy would apply to work there?” That’s as far as applying for a job there as I’ve ever gotten. Sorry to burst your uncreative, uninteresting bubble. I just made up Toilet Times and used it because it sounds dumb. I could make one up for the China Post, too. Uh…let’s see…give me 'till tomorrow. You copycat poo poo dummy.

Poop.

Dummy writes: "…every time I see job ads for the English newspapers here, I just think, “What kind of dummy would apply to work there?”

I give up, what kind of dummy would apply there? Or is this a rhetorical question?

I’ll bet my tail that the “kind of dummy” that would apply for a job at an English newspaper in Taiwan is the kind that can’t cut it doing a real job like teaching English.

I suppose I am opening myself up to endless flack here but, as the managing editor of the Taipei Times, and one of the original group of six behind the newspaper’s founding, I have at least as much insight into the weaknesses of the English-language press, including my own newspaper, as anybody else. I also worked at the Taiwan News, or China News as it was in those days for about three years until being sacked for having the wrong political preferences.

Reading the postings on this site makes me think there is a lack of understanding out there about what the conditions are like for any English newspaper in Taiwan; there is even a lack of understanding about what newspapers are about.

First let’s address the endless accusations of bias. I don’t understand what the argument here is. Newspapers have an attitude. And people buy the newspaper with the attitude that suits them. People accept that the Washington Post is “liberal” (and Democratic) and that the Wall Street Journal is conservative (and largely Republican). In Britain the gulf between the political convictions of the Guardian and the Telegraph mirrors that of their readership. Call it bias, call it conviction, call it editorial policy, the people that run newspapers usually have an ax to grind, a social vision they want to champion, a pet political party. That’s what newspapers are all about.

So what is the Taipei Times about? According to a directive issued by the president of the company yesterday it is to help the world understand the fact that Taiwan is an independent sovereign country, to help Taiwan gain acceptance by the rest of the world as such, and to support the values of democratic freedoms, human rights and the rule of law in Taiwan itself.

So those who accuse us of being pro-DPP are wrong. Actually I think the DPP government is something close to a shambles. We ( by which I mean the editorial board of the newspaper) have ideas in common with the DPP. But that is not to say we are in the DPP’s pocket. We, and I personally, do have a great deal of respect for Lee Teng-hui. I would not say he is without fault, but he has done more good for Taiwan than any other politician ever has. But we aren’t in the TSU’s pocket either and in fact I am skeptical that the TSU will make anything like the impact people think, including my own newspaper, actually.

Given that we support Taiwan’s sovereign independence, then we naturally take a dim view of reunificationists. Those of you who want to accuse us of outrageous bias might therefore want to search our Web site and look at the amount of space given to the views of notorious pro-unification figures such as Elmer Feng. We loath Feng, as it happens, but in the interests of balance we DO report what he and those like him say, in considerable detail.

As for the question of James Soong, no we don’t run pictures of Soong on the front page. Mr. Lin, the owner of our newspaper and the Liberty Times, loathes Soong with a passion and gets apoplectic whenever he sees him. Frankly, I don’t think that not running front page pictures of Soong, who I personally believe to be a criminal, is quite as bad as refusing to report human rights abuses in China because you want to sign lucrative deals with the Chinese communists, a policy forced upon papers such as the Times of London (which people still think of as a “respected” newspaper), by Rupert Murdoch. I sleep easy.

On the other hand Mr. Lin was rooting for Lien Chan in the presidential election, whom we thought a joke and frequently said so without any interference from “upstairs.”

So the whole question of who controls a newspaper’s editorial policy is far more complex than most of the contributors to this discussion imagine. I used to write editorials about three times a week when we launched, now I only do it once a week. But I must have written about 150 of the things In the last two years and nobody above me has ever told me what to write or what line to take or taken exception to anything I have written – unlike the China News where I was sacked in 1995 for saying in an editorial that the KMT was stealing the DPP’s ideas.

I might add, having gone into what we are about, it is my impression that the China Post is a staunchly pro-reunification paper with a New Party-style outlook. As for the News, when it was owned by the contemptible Wei family, it used to be similar to the Post, but because it relied on foreign managing editors its attitude was muted to the point of being reasonable. Then I-mei took over and it now seems to be a vanity publication for a handful of Taiwan independence extremists. It certainly can’t be called a newspaper anymore.

On to everybody’s biggest beef, mistakes. Sure our paper has mistakes, so do the others. The point is that picking a typo out of a line of text in the morning is very different from having to proofread a page of text at 11:30pm after a day’s work. All of you who haven’t worked at a local paper wonder how things slip by. All of you who have worked at a paper know how they do. The point is that, at least as far as we are concerned, it is not laziness. We do care. I would say it is lack of skill and lack of time. By the time our news gets to be copyedited and laid out, the proofing is hurried because of our early print deadline. I have begged to get the news in earlier but since so much of it is timed for the evening news broadcasts the reporters can’t finish earlier nor can we go to press later. So we have to do the best we can.

Part of the problem is that the talent isn’t available here in Taiwan. If you a good copy editor you can get a job just about anywhere. In Asia you would head for Hong Kong where you can earn twice as much as we pay. So basically we have to put the newspaper together using people that are sick of English teaching and want to come to us to learn a usable craft. Few people want to stay in Taiwan for a long time so staff turnover is always high, the people you hire have very basic editing skills and no knowledge of Taiwan – some idiot who works for me actually put “Keelung County” in a story the other day – so you fight an uphill battle on quality control every day. A junior copy editor at the Times, working a 44-hour week, earns about the same as an English teacher teaching about 20 hours a week, and we are by far the best payers.

Part of my job is to interview and test prospective copy editors. I probably see a couple of dozen possibles a year. I receive resumes every day. One thing that I have noticed is that people always think they are far better as editors than they really are, and have far better English skills than they really have. I have never met anyone coming in here for a job who thinks that their English skills are less than superlative. When I give job applicants the Chinglish rewrite test, telling them specifically that I want to see something that I can put in the newspaper when they have finished – which means they must polish and proof their finished copy – you would be shocked at the incompetent rubbish that I often get back, articles missed out, words duplicated, mistakes that just reading the copy once should have eradicated. The truth is that the vast majority of people who complain about the quality of the editing of the paper could not pass the test to become a probationary copy editor. That does not justify mistakes. But it does give you an idea of how damned hard it is to find halfway decent staff.

As for story quality, the problem is really that of the Taiwanese newspaper mindset. Sensationalist, no sense of following stories, no tradition of investigative journalism. Someone on this thread suggested studying Chinese so that you could read the Chinese press and not be dependent on the “inferior” English press. Well, FYI that is exactly what I did in the early 1990s, spending years at Shih-ta bringing my Chinese up to newspaper-reading level, wading through The Journalist (then much better than it is now, of course) every week trying to find deep background to Taiwan current affairs. Frankly, I was bitterly disappointed. It has taken me a decade to come to understand that what is most interesting about what happens in Taiwan is well known to the political and cultural elite, about 3,000 people who all went to school with each other, and does not get into the newspapers because in a way they consider it to be family business – “this thing of ours.” That was what was so shocking about the Chung Hsing Bills Finance Scandal. Not that it was an attempt to smear James Soong, but rather that the lid had been raised on “business as usual” in an incredibly threatening and dangerous way at the risk of mutually assured political and social destruction.

But hey, I’ve gone on long enough. I would be happy to answer questions, as long as they are civil. Having put up with more BS that a man should ever have to do to get this newspaper this far, I am sometimes surprised to find out that I still care. The Times is not what it was supposed to be when we planned it. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t get there, only that, like Christopher Columbus, we underestimated the difficulty and the time the journey would take.

L.

That was * by far * the best piece of writing I have ever read on this website. Lol, both you and your newspaper just won my vote. Prior to your posting, I was indifferent to the local English newspapers here. Now I have reason to favor yours. Thank you.

L, a very informative post, thanks for taking the time.

I don’t quite agree with the idea that it’s OK for a newspaper to be openly partisan – what usually happens in these scenarios is the people with money are able to outshout everyone else, and mariginalize any other view which doesn’t have backing of money or guanxi.

As for the complaints about talent, how about expanding training, or using some of the new technolgies that enable better-qualified people to work from another location in Taiwan, or even another country?

Lol,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write. Intelligent discourse is what this site, and particularly this forum, are supposed to be all about, so it’s always a pleasure to read postings like yours. Thanks again for writing.

Wow. Eye-opening stuff LOL. Thanks for that.

Q: If you had “carte blanche” what new things would you initiate to increase overall product quality and PR? Would be very interested to hear you think out loud. Cheers.

quote:
Originally posted by Lol: The people that run newspapers usually have an ax to grind, a social vision they want to champion, a pet political party. That's what newspapers are all about. Given that we support Taiwan's sovereign independence, then we naturally take a dim view of reunificationists. Those of you who want to accuse us of outrageous bias might therefore want to search our Web site and look at the amount of space given to the views of notorious pro-unification figures such as Elmer Feng. We loath Feng, as it happens, but in the interests of balance we DO report what he and those like him say, in considerable detail. As for the question of James Soong, no we don't run pictures of Soong on the front page. Mr. Lin, the owner of our newspaper and the Liberty Times, loathes Soong with a passion and gets apoplectic whenever he sees him. Frankly, I don't think that not running front page pictures of Soong, who I personally believe to be a criminal, is quite as bad as refusing to report human rights abuses in China because you want to sign lucrative deals with the Chinese communists, a policy forced upon papers such as the Times of London (which people still think of as a "respected" newspaper), by Rupert Murdoch. I sleep easy. Nobody above me has ever told me what to write or what line to take or taken exception to anything I have written.

So there you have it. The answers to all of our questions, by the head editor of the Taipei Times, no less. Now that we know that all newspapers “have an axe to grind”, that it’s okay that the Times only prints articles critical of people they don’t like because these people are bad people, and that censoring James Soong is nothing compared to what some other papers do, and that, since LOL’s political views are such that his editorials don’t need editing by his superiors, I think we can all rest easy and go home. That concludes this thread. Thank you all very much for coming.

Just kidding! Ok, that was a tad harsh. I actually agree with LOL on a lot of his points, including his evaluation of the other papers, particularly the Taiwan News, but I still think that newspapers should strive to be as objective as possible and not give in to political pressure. They may hate or loathe certain political figures, but they shouldn’t go out of their way to paint certain people in a good light and others in a bad light. They should report the facts as they know them and let the facts speak for themselves. It’s still my opinion that none of the papers in Taiwan are capable of doing this. Some of them might have in the past, but none of them do now.
I realize that copyeditors don’t have the power to dictate their paper’s policy, and that many senior editors are equally powerless in the face of their bosses’ political pressure. I am not blaming them, but those who intentionally skew their paper’s content to promote a certain platform to the detriment of their reporting of the facts of a certain situation.

Or perhaps I am just being naive and idealistic. It may not even be possible to have such a newspaper in Taiwan. Or anywhere else, for that matter. I still think it is something papers should strive for, in any case.

Lol dismisses criticism of bias by saying that bias is present wherever you are in the world, that that is what newspapers are about. So readers must learn to put up with it?

I rarely buy the English-language papers in Taiwan because I don’t know each day how much the news coverage is tainted. Usually very little perhaps – editors have neither time nor inclination. But the slant is still there on occasion in the angles that are used for stories and in where stories are placed (James Soong firmly inside the Taipei Times unless it’s about him being corrupt).

If a newspaper is my window on Taiwan, how can I be sure each day that the view is true, that the glass isn’t tinted green or blue or whatever to make me more disposed to a certain political stance? Harping on about James Soong’s corrupt dealings would be far more convincing if other stories about him weren’t buried.

The Taipei Times (+ the others too) simply doesn’t – and apparently doesn’t try to – give its readers an as objective as possible depiction of events.

That, for me, is what newspapers should “be about:” striving to inform the reader about events in as fair and balanced way as possible. Certainly the Guardian and Telegraph in Britain and many papers elsewhere are “about” something else. But isn’t striving for objectivity the basis of journalistic integrity?

OK, the people who run newspapers usually have an axe to grind. But is it really not possible for newspapers to erect a wall between their newsroom and op-ed section, keep advocacy on one side and news reporting on the other? I enjoy many of the Taipei Times editorials and opinion articles, find much of what they say very compelling but resent those same people trying to lead my opinions in the guise of news elsewhere in the paper.

If the Taipei Times, or any other paper here, did take try for as much objectivity as they could muster in their news reporting, then I’d subscribe. Not now though. Am I alone?

Salmon, you are definitely not alone. But if you are going to stick to the policy of not buying/reading papers that are “tainted”, then your best bet is not to read any news at all.

On the other hand, if your objective is to better understand the ‘truth’, or to get a more balanced perspective on the events that are happening around you, try reading a variety of the available publications. Not just one.

Afterall… history itself is up for interpretation. News is merely putting history in print. If you disagree with what’s being printed, start your own newspaper, and rewrite history as you see it.

I may be a stuffed animal, but I am a popular one at that.

Klaxon speaks of better training or using methods to lure better-qualified editors from abroad to the Taipei Times.
Let’s take the second first:
This was tried early on at the paper. In several cases, however, those individuals that were given incentives to come to Taiwan either left the paper before finishing their contracts (one stayed less than a month) or were steered out the door for a variety of reasons.
The management decided that they had been burned one too many times by foreigners parachuting in with a padded landing only to have them leave the paper.
Overseas hires have been a mixed bag, anyway, with some being utterly hopeless.
Training was done but ultimately much of the onus is on the individual to up his or her own game. Anyone who has been on a copy desk knows that days can be busy and that there is often little constructive time to educate those who are green. Training is done, however.
But more importantly, the Chinese management does not understand the concepts of skill, integrity, training and quality. No Chinese manager or top “editor” at the paper can edit any story in English, lay out a page or taste the wires, to name but three basic functions of the copy desk. This lack of understanding has resulted in a newsroom environment that places competence low on the list of necessary traits for any new copy editor.
Moreover, those copy editors who speak out in favor of streamlined practices or closer adherence to house style, both in copy and design, are branded by the Chinese management as “troublemakers.” The Chinese management also centers power around themselves and their appointed cronies.
The president of the paper wrote the following in a long and disturbing look at how the paper was to be run: " A flat organization needs to be based on team work, shared objectives and consensus, good interpersonal relationships and mutual trust and support. Only then can we operate speedily, efficiently and effectively. Each in the management team is capable of handling teamwork and tapping into pools of ability. At traditional papers, the editor in chief, managing editors and section chiefs are given bureaucratic authority to promote and direct work in the system. The Taipei Times does not adopt this kind of operation."
So the only ones in the paper with any teeth in their bite are the highest in the Chinese management – the ones with the least understanding of how the paper is produced and managed day to day.
Is it any wonder that the finished product has flaws? Given the constraints faced by the Taipei Times, it is a testament to the momentum of the cycle of newspaper production that anything arrives at your local 7-eleven at all.

Some clarification.

People seem to confuse bias in reporting with editorial stance. The two are totally different. I said that the Times has a certain editorial stance – like every other newspaper in the world from the Washington Post to the New Light of Myanmar. I did NOT say that our new stories were written to reflect that stance, nor did I say that it was OK to do so.

Actually, I said that, given what our stance is, I thought that our coverage of those we disagree with was quite fair. I count 82 stories concerning the arch-reunificationist New Party legislators Elmer Feng and Lai Shyh-bao so far this year. That’s an average of two mentions a week. We have mentioned Frank Hsieh in his capacity as DPP chairman – rather than Kaohsiung mayor – 93 times. Given the relative importance of these men in Taiwan’s political life, actually I think Hsieh might have cause for complaint. We have mentioned James Soong in stories (not editorials) 169 times. So I think in terms of quantity of news coverage we can put accusations of bias aside.

What about quality of coverage. I lack a convenient way for determining how many front-page stories we have had mentioning James Soong recently. Certainly if Soong says something really important, worthy of the front page, it will go on the front page. The last time this happened was, at the time of writing, one week ago, where our lead story on Aug. 24 was Soong saying that cooperation with the KMT was dead. (taipeitimes.com/news/2001/08 … 0000099907). The story was almost all about what Soong had to say, and even had a nice big pullquote. And I can detect no editorial bias in the story, it seems like a perfectly fair presentation of Soong’s views. Nowhere does it maintain that he used to be one of he KMT’s chief goons or that he is suspected of bilking NT$1 billion. So Song DOES make the front page, on a regular basis, and nobody is told what they should think of him.

I did say that I don’t put PICTURES of Soong on front. I do this because the man who put up about US$10 million to start this newspaper doesn’t like to see them ( he was screwed by Soong in some political shenanigans over a decade ago and has loathed him ever since). Since I didn’t have US$10 million of my own to invest in this enterprise, not putting Soong PICTURES (get this right) on the front page seems to be a small price to pay for the chance to do what we wanted to do with the Times.

Those of you to whom pictures of James Soong are the sine qua non of journalistic integrity have two options, buy papers that will put Soong pics on front, whatever you lose by way of objectivity or quality elsewhere in their copy, or use US$10 million of your own money and start another paper.
Since so many people out there think that Taiwan English newspapers are universally so poor that anybody could do better – the very reason why I and the then managing editor of the China News spent a year trying to get someone interested in the Taipei Times project in the first place – they are welcome to try; we would relish the competition. But, believe me, be prepared to sacrifice your homelife, marriage, all your friendships, your piece of mind, any idea of sleeping, your self respect and – eventually – your liver to the project.

It’s surprising how non-journalists talk about objectivity so much. Frankly as a journalist, I am not sure what they mean, nor do other journalists use this phrase very much. To me it seems the very act of listening to what someone says, deciding what is important about it, and structuring a story around that decision seems to preclude the kind of unintermediated news content that “Salmon” seems to be talking about. What is important about Lien Chan’s confederation speech to a reporter who thinks it is a good idea is almost certainly going to seem different and result in a different report compared with that of a reporter who is skeptical about its practicality and notices the lack of detail in its presentation. Yet both will report “only the facts.”

Only verbatim transcripts of press conferences would seem to satisfy “Salmon’s” idea of “objectivity.” Not only would this be incredibly boring but also remember that a press conference, which is where most news in Taiwan comes from, is really a one-sided PR stunt. As Lord Northcliffe said: “News is what people don’t want you to know, anything else is just advertising.”

I guess a “lack of objectivity” means stating an opinion in a news story, what is known in the trade as editorializing and is universally frowned on when it is done by reporters, as much at the Taipei Times, as in its respected London or New York counterparts.

What journalists do – or perhaps should – care about is fairness or balance. There are two sides to every story. Are those fairly reflected in your coverage? I take the accusation that our coverage is unbalanced somewhat personally because I and the other senior editors are always trying to force on reporters the importance of getting the other side’s version of events. If we fail to achieve this properly, it is not because of editorial bias on my part or that of any other editor at the paper. Rather it is because of the way Chinese reporters work. Reporting in Taiwan is not a proactive thing; for the most part reporters go to scheduled press conferences and write up what was said and that is that. They don’t ask penetrating questions – often because their paper’s clipping on the issue are hopelessly disorganized or none -existent so they are unable to acquire the background that would make question more probing. When they get back to the office they don’t ring around to get reaction or comment. There seems to be an assumption that if the “other side” has something to say it will call its own press conference tomorrow and then they will report that. As a result, the copy we get often is not balanced to our liking but at 9pm there is little we can do to rectify this.

Sometimes it is just the immaturity of the reporter that gets the better of professional judgment. I personally do not think that we covered the fourth nuclear power plant debate very well. Why? Because it was handed to our environmental reporter, whose sympathies clearly lay with the anti-nuclear lobby and environmental NGOs. As a result we seemed to give the impression that the anti-nuclear side was far larger and more influential than it really was. Personally I am anti-power plant myself, I think it is a boondoggle for KMT cronies. But I do think that we might have better shown that most Taiwanese were more concerned with stable power supplies than potential nuclear dangers.

“I enjoy many of the Taipei Times editorials and opinion articles, find much of what they say very compelling but resent those same people trying to lead my opinions in the guise of news elsewhere in the paper,” says “Salmon.”

I can assure him that nobody is intentionally trying to “lead his opinions in the guise of news” at all. If he thinks that the Times tries to do this more than other reputable papers elsewhere than I would like him to give some examples to prove the point. But Salmon admits that “the Guardian and Telegraph in Britain and many papers elsewhere are ‘about’ something else.” Well yes they are because that’s the newspaper business. So perhaps it is just newspapers in general that he object to, or he is searching for the Platonic “form” of the “objective newspaper” in comparison with which all earthly exemplars are naturally grossly inferior.

I should add that one of the most highly respected publications in the world is The Economist (and I do not say that just because I have, apart from my work at the Times, been their Taipei reporter since 1995). And yet The Economist is ALL opinion. Yes it has lots of facts, yes it has balance but, by God, who could not be absolutely clear about what it supports (for example free trade) and what it abhors (anti-globolizers) and this is absolutely apparent in its news stories, not just its editorials.

To all of you who crave this mythical goal of objectivity, take “Hello Kitty’s” advice and read more than one news source. Think of us as the liberal, democratic, pro-independence, anti-China (well anti-the Chinese communist regime actually ) when you read us. And if you think the ultraconservative KMT Old Guard view of things is not fairly represented by the Times, read the Post, where it forms the substance of their editorial policy. I do.

That’s another 1,300-word slab and it’s 9:30pm and I have work to do so I won’t go on. My thanks to those of you who commented so kindly on my last post. Those of you with questions to ask, I haven’t forgotten you. Let’s just see how this thread develops for a couple of says and I will get back to you.

L.

Betrayed by my spell checker

That was of course “peace” of mind

L.

Actually, Wolf, I wasn’t suggesting hiring foreign copy editors and parachuting them into Taiwan, but using electronic means (e-mail, collaborative Internet apps) to have a talented set of eyes somewhere else look at the article, clean up the grammar, write a snappier head and lead, and send it back to the editors in Taiwan with any outstanding questions.

This would let existing copy staff and editors in Taiwan concentrate on pagination, and answering any questions left over from the initial edit.

Yes, it would require a significant re-evaluation of the workflow, as well as other bureaucratic hurdles (payment, hiring, taxes, etc.). But clearly the system that’s in place now isn’t working, and there is a glut of talented copy editors in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. who are looking for extra work, even a few freelance hours per day.

Wow.
Klax, you are a man with a vision. But to explain the computer system at the Taipei Times (unique in the world) and the buffoons who try to maintain it would fill volumes.
Yes, you are right in your thinking, but it’s like you are trying to convince a crop duster of the advantages of installing a Star Trek transporter.
Right technology, wrong millennium…