seattleweekly.com/features/0 … arrish.php
In fact, it really happened. Read the truth here.
One writer in the USA calls it the most insincere “retraction” in the history of modern journalism.
MONEY QUOTE: Newsweek had little choice but to disavow its brief report of Koran desecration at Guant
And the infamous ACLU has just released a “smoking gun”:
GUN: New documents released by the FBI include previously undisclosed interviews in which prisoners at Guant
Not exactly Cola.
Allegations are “allegations.” Please check this word in the dictionary. Al Qaeda manuals instruct detainees to allege mistreatment and sacrilege as a matter of course. I think that Mark Steyn had a very good article this week. He noted that Isikoff was not allowed to break the story on the semen stains on Monica Lewinsky’s dress. It went through a rigid editorial process (can you say political bias) and Newsweek decided not to run with it for lack of evidence despite the semen stain whose DNA matched that exactly of one William Jefferson Clinton but no such similar concern or discernment was given to this particular story even though there was no hard evidence. It was an official who had “heard” that such an event had taken place. He had neither witnessed it first hand. That qualifies as hearsay. It would have been different if there had been any “hard” evidence such as the semen-stained dress, photos at Abu Ghraib etc. So if the magazine did not run the semen dress story why this one?
[quote=“fred smith”]
Allegations are “allegations.” Please check this word in the dictionary.[/quote]
Allegations are also sometimes outright “fabrications”, too. 
I suppose some people feel that the photographed prison abuses at Abu Ghraib are still just “allegations,” much in the way that atrocities of many kinds have been denied by certain people over the past 6 decades.
However, not all the allegations come from former prisoners. Former translators from Gitmo have also spoken out.
It would appear that the U.S. has done a variety of things in the course of its “interrogations” that are calculated to offend devout Muslims. Why would Korans knocked or thrown into toilets be any worse than the things we’ve already been doing? Like putting them on leashes, displaying them naked and in simulated homosexual acts isn’t enough? Having female interrogators pretend to smear menstrual blood on detainees not spicy enough? Beating them to death not “severe” enough?
Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is about flushing books down the toilet.
Its called free speech. Anyone here oppose the notion of free speech?
Tigerman:
Hahahahahahah I guess that sort of raises an interesting issue that we have not thought of. I mean banning the ability to flush Korans down the toilet would be yet another fascist infringement of personal rights under the Patriot Act right? hahahahahahahah Brilliant! Score one for you!
If the Korans belong to the prisoners, it would seem that the guards and/or interrogators are engaging in destruction of personal property. If the Korans belong to the U.S. government, then the guards and/or interrogators are destroying government property.
What was that free speech argument, again?
hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah
Why I laugh?
[quote=“fred smith”]…
I think that Mark Steyn had a very good article this week. He noted that Isikoff was not allowed …??? …NOT ALLOWED??? BY WHOM???..to break the story on the semen stains on Monica Lewinsky’s dress. It went through a rigid editorial process (can you say political bias) …CAN YOU SAY PARANOID RIGHTWING NUTCASE??? …and Newsweek decided not to run with it for lack of evidence despite the semen stain whose DNA matched that exactly of one William Jefferson Clinton but no such similar concern or discernment was given to this particular story even though there was no hard evidence. It was an official who had “heard” that such an event had taken place. He had neither witnessed it first hand. That qualifies as hearsay. It would have been different if there had been any “hard” evidence such as the semen-stained dress, photos at Abu Ghraib etc. So if the magazine did not run the semen dress story why this one?[/quote]
Fred, you got it all completely wrong. Mark Steyn is a rabid paranoid righwing facist who writes lies. and you believe them? put your head back on and think again. SO newsweek ran the Koran story to get back at Bush because Newsweeek is a leftwing liberal mag.? You gotta be kiddink?
You take the cake, man.
[quote=“Tigerman”]Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is about flushing books down the toilet.
Its called free speech. Anyone here oppose the notion of free speech?[/quote]
Certainly not.
I strongly support the position of being allowed to flush the bible (or any other book) down the toilet
When those Muslim demonstrators used the American flag as a doormat to wipe their feet on- I’m down with that, in a strictly freedom of speech kind of way.
OTOH, I would object to someone holding a Christian as a prisoner desecrating the Bible as an interrogation technique; I would object to someone holding an American prisoner desecrating the American flag the same way.
It seems that you think that’s hunky-dory, no problem, totally acceptable.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes acceptable behaviour to those whom we have power over- you seem to think that any method of degrading some one in your control is fine; sorry, I disagree.
So, those saying it wasn’t Newsweek’s fault now include the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the American Commander in Afghanistan, President Karzai and Scottie McCLellan
[quote]Q: One other question. Karzai was quite definite in saying that he didn’t believe that the violence in Afghanistan was directly tied to the Newsweek article about Koran desecration. Yet, from this podium, you have made that link. So –
McCLELLAN: Actually, I don’t think you’re actually characterizing what was said accurately.
Q: By whom?
McCLELLAN: As I said last week, and as President Karzai said today, and as General Myers had said previously, the protest may well have been pre-staged. The discredited report was damaging. It was used to incite violence. But those who espouse an ideology of hatred and oppression and murder don’t need an excuse to incite violence. But the reports from the region showed how this story was used to incite violence.
Q: But Karzai seemed to think that that wasn’t what led to the violence, that it was –
McCLELLAN: That’s right, he actually – he talked about – President Karzai spoke about how the demonstrations were aimed at undercutting the progress being made toward democracy in Afghanistan, and the progress on elections. They have elections coming up soon. And I spoke about that, as well, last week.[/quote]
editorandpublisher.com/eandp … 1000930917
On the other side…?
[quote=“MikeN”] I would object to someone holding a Christian as a prisoner desecrating the Bible as an interrogation technique; I would object to someone holding an American prisoner desecrating the American flag the same way.
It seems that you think that’s hunky-dory, no problem, totally acceptable.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes acceptable behaviour to those whom we have power over- you seem to think that any method of degrading some one in your control is fine; sorry, I disagree.[/quote]
Exactly. Everyone’s been laughing at those crazy ayrabs who get all upset over just a silly book, but the fact that it’s not just a silly book to the victims is extremely important. First the US has occupied muslim holy lands ever since it first struck a deal with the saudis for their oil decades ago, leading to tensions of which everyone has long been aware. Then the occupation by such western infidels gradually increases over the decades until the invading troops storm into Iraq, shooting up ancient holy sites, killing thousands of innocents (many of them inadvertently, not that it matters to their families), blasting at the natives in their temples, imprisoning them in their own land, smearing shit on the locals who they have captured, piling them naked, shoving sticks up their asses and sicing dogs on them.
The fred smiths of the world may make their excuses for why such actions were purportedly justified, but there’s no question such acts would increase the tension between muslims who feel they are being oppressed and US troops who are invading their foreign lands, rounding up people at will and imprisoning them without charges for indeterminate periods of time under cruel conditions. Excuses have been made for why such acts are necessary, but one cannot deny that they have led to a highly volatile situation where the US invaders have an obligation to use their utmost means to demonstrate that these actions were taken with the noblest of intentions, to help rid the world of tryranny (or whatever malarkey they claim as their justification).
But the intentional desecration of these peoples’ holy book by the laughing sadistic thugs who have invaded and shot up their lands, grabbed them as prisoners and holding them helpless, now finally forcing them to witness this gleeful contamination of their bible, the book that is central to their lives – it’s hardly any surprise such acts would infuriate them, as that was exactly the intent of the idiot soldiers who committed such acts (if they occurred as repeatedly alleged 
).
It doesn’t work to play innocent and say it’s only a silly book. We all know it’s far more than a silly book to the victims forced to witness such acts of desecration and it’s only the latest in a long line of insults. The violent reaction should come as no surprise.
[color=blue]Denial ain’t a river in Egypt. It’s a state of mind.[/color]
Q The other day – in fact, this week, you said that we, the United States, is in Afghanistan and Iraq by invitation. Would you like to correct that incredible distortion of American history –
SCOTT McCLELLAN: No, we are – that’s where we currently –
Q – in view of your credibility is already mired? How can you say that?
SCOTT McCLELLAN: Helen, I think everyone in this room knows that you’re taking that comment out of context. There are two democratically-elected governments in Iraq and –
Q We’re we invited into Iraq?
SCOTT McCLELLAN: There are two democratically-elected governments now in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are there at their invitation. They are sovereign governments, and we are there today –
Q You mean if they had asked us out, that we would have left?
SCOTT McCLELLAN: No, Helen, I’m talking about today. We are there at their invitation. They are sovereign governments –
Q I’m talking about today, too.
SCOTT McCLELLAN: – and we are doing all we can to train and equip their security forces so that they can provide for their own security as they move forward on a free and democratic future.
Q Did we invade those countries?
SCOTT McCLELLAN: Go ahead, Steve.
I love this wonderful headline in the NY Times. So it is not in fact desecration. It is not in fact abuse. It is not in fact anything but Koran “harm?” and let’s look at what that entails…
[quote]The investigation also explored six more accusations of Koran abuse involving guards. In each of those instances, General Hood said, the guard “either accidentally touched the Koran, touched it within the scope of his duties, or did not actually touch the Koran at all.”
Military policy acknowledges that some Muslims view a non-Muslim touching the Koran as a desecration.
In two other instances of the 13 that were investigated, interrogators either touched a Koran or stood over the Islamic holy book during an interrogation, General Hood said.[/quote]
nytimes.com/2005/05/27/polit … r=homepage
Now for everyone’s favorite M can-I-have-another-please T:
I am so glad to see that MT is sensitive to the accidental touching or not touching of the Koran. I am also wondering where his outrage is at all the terrorist-caused deaths and destruction during the past oh 40 years. So touching or not touching a book gets MT riled but a tens of thousands of deaths, the subjugation of women, the persecution of Christians, Jews and even Shia Muslims and on and on is okay. Gotcha.
Are we in Saudi Arabia now? How is the Muslim occupation of Our Holy Lands any different? Why is it unacceptable for Westerners to “occupy” Muslim holy lands but okay for Muslims to occupy Western holy lands? Just curious why one group is accorded sensitivity to the nth degree while the other is accorded only condemnation?
so why do the vast majority of Iraqis still say that they are happy Saddam is gone with over 80 percent of them happy the US got rid of him?
This is a patent falsehood. The US troops took great pains at great cost of lives to avoid attacking any holy shrines in Kerbala or Najaf. Compare this with the deliberate use of mosques and hospitals by insurgents and terrorists.
How were they killed? Wantonly? Or were they killed because they were often deliberately placed in harm’s way by insurgents or terrorists? If robbers use hostages as shields and they accidentally get killed when criminals open fire on police or other civilians causing the police to respond, would you also blame the police first and foremost?
Muslims don’t have temples, they have mosques. Get your verbiology right. Second, the insurgents and terrorists are the ones using hospitals and mosques to fire on troops. They therefore desecrated these sites. Where’s the outrage? The outpouring of Muslim anger at their hurt sensibilitie?
How many have been imprisoned? How many more would the Iraqis like to see imprisoned if it would guarantee their security?
All of these cases are being investigated and the guilty punished. Compare this with what occurred during Saddam’s regime. MT’s point is a typical leftie obscuring technique. Because the US and its troops do some bad acts even though these are punished and justice is served, we are therefore no better than the very worst regime, one like Saddam’s which has no respect for human rights and whose atrocities are legion.
I would love to hear your excuses about why you were unwilling to take action to stop Saddam or the Taliban or why Muslim women do not have rights and should not have rights. Why are you against religious freedom? religious tolerance? Women’s rights? children’s rights? human rights? democracy? hmmm?
We have invaded two and gee 60 percent of the people of Iraq were more than happy to vote in great numbers and the results were even higher in Afghanistan. Who are you protecting here? the terrorists? the insurgents? Poll after poll shows that the Iraqis and Afghans want security and they want the US to stay to help them get it. They do not necessarily like the US being there but they hate the insurgents and terrorists even more.
I am shocked as well. France has been rounding up and detaining people suspected of terrorism for up to three years since the 1980s. When will this stop. Thank you for joining me MT in condemning this foul matter. Aren’t you pleased that the cases involving the US are so much less even though we are fighting a war in two countries and are the primary force fighting terrorism around the world. And what do we have 500 detainees left in Guantanamo, most of whom were captured directly fighting US troops in Afghanistan. Pretty clear case that and OUT OF UNIFORM.
Too bad all that business fighting Hitler and Tojo also resulted in such a highly volatile situation. Who caused it? the US? haha
Yes, we have seen how touching and not touching the Koran resulted in “harm” as the NY Times put it. We have also seen that Al Qaeda manuals suggest accusing US troops of desecrating the Koran when no such desecrations have occured to earn public relations points with the foolish, vacuous and weak of mind. Sound familiar?
So far no one has proved any “desecration” of the Koran. The one case which involved the most serious “harm” was actually an incident involving an al Qaeda member trying to stuff one down a toilet to plug it. So, again, desecration of a book is cause for all holy hell to break loose, and for Muslims to rampage against other Muslims and kill them? Then, are you suggesting that if such alleged desecrations of a book are worthy of murder that Christians, Jews, Hindus and Shia Muslims should also be allowed to rampage against Sunnis everywhere in the same manner to vent their justifiable outrage? I thought you were all about peace and tolerance and discussion MT. For you to encourage violence like this, well, I think that it is wrong. Try to serve justice rather than fomenting hatred among peoples. Shame on you.
[quote=“mofangongren”]If the Korans belong to the prisoners, it would seem that the guards and/or interrogators are engaging in destruction of personal property. If the Korans belong to the U.S. government, then the guards and/or interrogators are destroying government property.
What was that free speech argument, again?[/quote]
I don’t know who the books belong to… and I doubt that anyone considers that the issue.
Surely the Moslem detainees would be just as offended were I to flush my own copy, their own copy, or a copy of the Koran owned by the US Government, down the toilet.
I stand by my remarks.
These folks have no hesitation or concern when it comes to burning or otherwhise desecrating the US or Israeli flag, or to burning Bibles by the truckload, or to destroying Buddhist statues and other antiquities.
Fuck 'em. They need to get over this.
Flushing a Koran down the toilet is not a legitimate reason, IMO, for killing someone.
If you think it is, then we disagree.
[quote=“MikeN”]OTOH, I would object to someone holding a Christian as a prisoner desecrating the Bible as an interrogation technique; I would object to someone holding an American prisoner desecrating the American flag the same way.
It seems that you think that’s hunky-dory, no problem, totally acceptable.[/quote]
I didn’t say that it would be hunky-dory at all. However, I really don’t think its a big deal at all either.
There are lots of worse ways to be interrogated, I think.
I never stated that using “any method” of degrading an individual was acceptable. Did I?
OOOPS!..NEVER MIND!
[quote]Pentagon: Prisoner Recanted Quran Desecration Claims
NewsMax.com Wires, Friday, May 27, 2005
WASHINGTON – A prisoner at Guantanamo Bay who complained that a military guard threw a Quran holy book in the toilet has since recanted the story, senior Pentagon officials said Thursday.
The prisoner, who made his complaint in an FBI interrogation in July 2002, is one of several quoted in newly released documents as saying that U.S. military personnel desecrated the Qurans of Muslim detainees at the prison. Allegations of Quran abuse have led to heated discussion - and even deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan - since a Newsweek magazine report, later retracted, that U.S. officials had confirmed a Quran was flushed in a toilet.
“Their behavior is bad,” one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent on July 22, 2002. “About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet.”
Lawrence Di Rita, spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, told reporters that U.S. investigators had re-interviewed the unidentified prisoner on May 14.
“He has said it didn’t happen,” Di Rita said. A day earlier the spokesman had said the detainee had not corroborated his original story when he was re-questioned, but on Thursday the spokesman went a step further.
“So the underlying allegation, the detainee himself within the last two weeks said that didn’t happen,” Di Rita said.
Another spokesman, Bryan Whitman, said the detainee “indicated, when asked about the desecration, that he was not knowledgeable of anything.”
In a fresh disclosure Thursday, the ACLU released copies of an FBI document dated Nov. 25, 2003, that referred to “information concerning impersonation by (Defense Department) interrogators at Guantanamo representing themselves to be officials of the FBI and U.S. State Department.” b[/b]
newsmax.com/scripts/printer_frie … 2951.shtml[/quote]
And more from the NYT
[quote][b]No Intentional Abuse of Koran at Guant
Hey, how come when Fred touched my Quran inappropriately nothing was done to him? I want him to pay – and it’s not about the money!
You don’t want to see or know what I will do to your Koran spook if I ever get my evil claws on it.
[quote]These folks have no hesitation or concern when it comes to burning or otherwhise desecrating the US or Israeli flag, or to burning Bibles by the truckload, or to destroying Buddhist statues and other antiquities.
Fuck 'em. They need to get over this.
Flushing a Koran down the toilet is not a legitimate reason, IMO, for killing someone.[/quote]
Absof***inglutely Tigerman. Why is it that there is this double standard between Muslims and everyone else. Someone may or may not have touched not touched a Koran so let’s burn the house down (MFGR inspired) and kill everyone including the cows (ditto) but when Muslims and Arabs bomb plane after plane, kill innocent women, stone retarded girls that have been raped and farm their children out as whores and drug dealers, hey no big deal, just some minor cultural differences and we should “celebrate in the diversity.” Fuck that. Fuck anyone who thinks like that and fuck all this violence once and for all. How’s that? hahaha It’s Friday so it truly is an “F” letter day!