[quote=“Boomer”]What about my children who are born here. What rights do they have? Those inconveniences, small slights, and occasional genuine injustices can also be described as human rights violations.
When the government of the ROC declared that my children were not my children but the children of the ROC. They crossed a line and by doing so adopted me, their American father.[/quote]
I don’t know the particulars of your case, but you might have a genuine grievance. Hire a lawyer to help you remedy the specific problem. You might actually improve you and your childrens’ lots that way. The route you have chosen is a fool’s path that essentially causes far more problems than it will ever solve.
Exaggerate much? I too have served my country in war. It does not give me the right for special pleading.
The U.S. primarily defends Taiwan for its own interests, not out of any desire for territory or because of its beneficence. At least one time in the past (under Truman before the outbreak of the Korean War), the U.S. was ready to abandon Taiwan and let the Chinese Communists take over the island.
Slave Army? Was the U.S. military in WW2 or Vietnam a slave army? Do the Swiss maintain a slave army? How about the Israelis?
Modern states have a well-recognized right to compel their citizens to defend the nation. The situation here in Taiwan is not fundamentally different than many other modern and democratic places under threat. The U.S. volunteer army is a recent development and it is one, I might add, that could be dropped immediately if necessary.
Ridiculous tripe. Even die-hard independence advocates recognize the need for an army. I don’t know if you read the papers but we aren’t living under Chiang Kai-shek or Jiang Jingguo anymore.
Hahaha! “I have a dream! I dream that one day me and my children will sit down together in Taiwan with the parents and children of Taiwanese under the suzerainty of the United States!”
I’m sure your average Taiwanese will have a very different opinion of your dream about the U.S. claiming sovereignty over the island for the benefit of their rights.
[quote=“Hartzell”][quote=“Cold Front”]Taiwan is a de facto country . . . . [/quote] This is exactly the point. Taiwan is not a de jure country, and so it should quit its bullying and restrictive behavior. As American citizens, we have as much right to live here and work here as anyone else.
It is a fact that the sovereignty of Formosa and the Pescadores was never transferred to the ROC. As such, that sovereignty is still held by the United States Military Government, which is the principal occupying power of the San Francisco Peace Treaty. (See SFPT Articles 4b and 23.)[/quote]
Regardless of the text of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, the U.S. has acted to the contrary in the more than half-century since it was signed. At least once, the U.S. has been ready to abandon the island to the ChiComs. The U.S. also removed an official military presence here almost twenty-five years ago. No U.S. court is going to overrule the conduct of U.S. government over such a long period of time because of what is essentially a technicality. The courts traditionally give very wide leeway to the executive branch in the practice of foreign policy.
Exactly. The ROC government in Taiwan is illegitimate, hence mandatory military conscription in Taiwan is a violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions.[/quote]
No one of any consequence – not in Europe, the U.S. or here in Asia – is going to take your arguments seriously. Taiwan is not under U.S suzerainty and trying to push and publicize a legal case claiming otherwise is at best a joke, and, at worst, an unnecessary way to cause tensions between the locals and the majority of foreigners living in Taiwan who aren’t interested in the U.S. reasserting its authority here.
I agree with Cold Front 100% on this issue. The majority of foreigners in Taiwan want to continue to live in a pseudo-country which is not recognized internationally, and which allows its own “citizens” to have Taiwan nationality and our country’s nationality, but denies we foreigners the same dual nationality rights. This is the treatment which we want.
Additionally, the fact that we are discriminated against in terms of our work rights, health insurance rights, bank loan rights, withholding tax rights, driver’s license extension period rights, etc. makes us even more grateful that Taiwan is “holding to its own path” and not taking advice or directions from some modern nation such as the USA, and not subject to USA administrative authority in any way, shape, or form.
Taiwan wants to join the UN, while at the same time it ignores the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other UN Conventions and Declarations. Speaking for myself, I can proudly say that my knowledge of this makes me all warm inside and I truly believe that the Taiwan bureaucracy is working for the best interests of all the people who live and work on this island.
In 2002 the American Chamber of Commerce made sixty recommendations to the Taiwan government for improvements in various areas, and by mid-2003 a total of three had been implemented. That is certainly a passing grade in my book, and I fully expect a repeat performance in the years ahead.
I agree with Cold Front 100% on this issue. The majority of foreigners in Taiwan want to continue to live in a pseudo-country which is not recognized internationally, and which allows its own “citizens” to have Taiwan nationality and our country’s nationality, but denies we foreigners the same dual nationality rights. This is the treatment which we want.[/quote]
Wow! You’ve convinced me, Marky! Send the Marines back in and demand that the U.S. reassert its suzerainty here because (wah!) you can’t get a work permit. That’ll teach those DPP bigots to mess with you.
As to your whining about a double standard, grow up. This might strike you as injust but every country in the world has a double standard when dealing with each other in matters of immigration, trade, criminal justice matters, and just about everything else. Congratulations on being the last person in the world to realize this.
That’s right. Because this isn’t the U.S. and some spoiled Americans who have been allowed to live here long enough to get restless and challenge the natives doesn’t change that fact.
The U.S. government can certainly lean on Taiwan in order to let Americans feel more at home on the island with preferential treatment, but that isn’t the nature of Hartzell’s case, which is ridiculously grandiose in its ambitions.
Taiwan ignores the U.N.? Then it certainly deserves membership in the world body since everyone ignores the U.N., especially its own members.
Get this, the American Chamber of Commerce is not in charge of Taiwan nor are they accountable to the people of Taiwan for what the government does here. The people who ultimately give the Taiwan government a passing grade are Taiwanese voters, not organizations that represent foreign businesses.
[quote=“Cold Front”]Wow! You’ve convinced me, Marky! Send the Marines back in and demand that the U.S. reassert its suzerainty here because (wah!) you can’t get a work permit. That’ll teach those DPP bigots to mess with you.
As to your whining about a double standard, grow up. This might strike you as injust but every country in the world has a double standard when dealing with each other in matters of immigration, trade, criminal justice matters, and just about everything else[/quote]
Marky, be careful of what you wish for. Not all foreigners living in Taiwan are married to Taiwan citizens and thus possibly eligible to obtain permanent residency rights.
How would those foreigners who are not married to Taiwanese citizens feel if Taiwan suddenly agreed to reciprocity in immigration rights? For US citizens, at least, many would find it extremely difficult (and expensive) to obtain residency rights based on employment alone.
Ever talk to any non-US citizen who obtained a US green card based on employment rather than family ties? The process sucks.
By the way, I have never claimed that foreigners living in Taiwan don’t have genuine grievances nor have I ever claimed that foreigners should not try to influence the democratic and judicial processes to improve their lives here. They have, and they should continue to do so.
But this remedy is so over-the-top, so removed from reality, that it is the equivalent of using a sledgehammer for work that should require a toothpick. The United States government is not suddenly going to announce that, due to a technicality long overlooked, it’s still in charge of Taiwan, thereby inflaming not only local opinion here on the island, but in China and across the world as well.
The outcry over such a move by the U.S. would make that over its recent policy towards Iraq pale in comparison – and all this just so the U.S. could improve the lot of a few long-time English teachers and other expatriates that feel oppressed by the democratic government here. Sorry, folks, but that’s not happening.
Boomer, thank you so much for protecting me. You were quite generous to give so much of your time to a volunteer cause (you didn’t get paid, right?). By the way, what do you propose that Taiwan’s “slave army” be replaced with? Middleschool kids with pea shooters?
So Chen Shui-bian is an overlord? So the people of Taiwan are crushed under the iron-fisted rule of the DPP, showing that no progress in human rights has been made over the past twenty years? Have you, um, talked to anyone who lived during the martial law period?
By the way, it’s a bit ridiculous to equate, as you did in another post, the plight of Americans in Taiwan with that of blacks in the U.S. in the 1960s. Foreigners in Taiwan make on average more than the locals. They tend to appear in the media in a positive light. Etc. Hardly the experience of the blacks Martin Luther King was talking about.
And this is the part I don’t get–the so-called grievances and discrimination and injustices that make any of these silly lawsuit plans necessary. I’ve never had trouble finding work here, getting work permits, getting licenses, getting health insurance, and I just got permanent residency, and I am not even married to a local. As a long-time resident and American, I really see no need to get restless and challenge the natives. I hate to agree with Cold Front, as much as I would like to drown him in an outhouse, but he’s 100% correct.
I agree with HakkaSonic that most (white collar) foreigners are a lot more affluent than most locals. Aren’t the average incomes of most US states like twice that of Taiwan?
As for having children here who were declared children of the ROC, Boomer, did you know beforehand that there might be this problem? (I am not ripping on you, it is a horrible thing, but very curious.) Both my mother and stepmother either chose to have their children in the US or Hong Kong, not the mainland or Taiwan.
Under Hartzell’s scheme, I thought the operative legal concept is that everyone on Taiwan would essentially be American, not Taiwanese. They would be citizens of a U.S. protectorate, territory, freely associated state, commonwealth, etc. (take your pick). It would be like living on Guam or Puerto Rico. U.S. federal laws would apply and the native Taiwanese could do everything Americans could do but vote in U.S. presidential elections.
Yes… but Mr. Hartzell and others have also been campaigning (or have campaigned recently) for full reciprocity rights between Taiwan and the US. I don’t think that is a necessarily good thing and I don’t welcome some of the changes, such as my son now being a Taiwan citizen, despite the fact that at birth and for the first half of his life he was not a Taiwan citizen. Rather than make our lives simpler, this has made things more complicated.
Regarding the idea of the US asserting sovereignty over Taiwan… Mr. Hartzell also seems to have failed to consider whether the US would want Taiwan as a 51st state or territory. Even if his litigation was successful in the courts, the US would not want Taiwan any more than it would want one or several of Canada’s provinces in the event that Quebec actually ever does seccede… such a scenario would be a real headache for the US (renegotiating various treaties, etc…), and Taiwan joining the US would cause a headache much bigger and more painful than any Canada could cause.
I agree with you, but at least the campaign for full reciprocity strikes me as far more reasonable than a legal battle claiming the U.S. is in charge of Taiwan and all U.S. federal laws still apply here. Like you, I think full reciprocity is misguided, but at least it’s not loopy.
No need to worry. The situation will never get that far.
No. When my son was born I was told that he would not be a citizen of the ROC unless we were willing to jump through the hoops and his American father was willing to hand sole custody to his Taiwanese mother.
Then without any consultation or warning they declared my son a ROC citizen. They told me I must acknowledge that fact by getting him a ROC passport or he could not leave Taiwan. AIT acknowledged this and were otherwise indifferent.
I will not get my son am ROC passport. If the ROC gives up it’s claim to Taiwan and my son can get a Taiwanese passport all the better. Until that time I vow to be the biggest pain in the ass I possibly can until this injustice is rectified.
Hindsight tells me it was a bad decision. I am not new to Taiwan. I know better than most that the goverment of the ROC is based on facist principals. the Republic of China will never allow for the kinds of freedoms and rights that will be necessary for Taiwan to become recognised as a developed nation. It was my mistake and my son may have to suffer because of it.
Ummm…But if I was a Taiwanese man living in the States and I had a child, wouldn’t my child be a US citizen automatically? And wouldn’t my child then need a US passport to leave the country.
Yes, your child would automatically be an US citizen. The difference is that you would have known (or should have known) well in advance of your child’s birth that your child would have US citizenship rights based on birth in the US (indeed, many foreign nationals travel to the US to give birth to their children there for that reason). The difference in my situation is that at the time my son was born (in the US) he did not automatically obtain Taiwan citizenship, as prior to the new Nationality Law, Taiwan citizenship passed through the father, who had to be a Taiwan citizen… i.e., a Taiwan citizen mother could not at that time have a Taiwan citizen baby if the father of the baby was not also a Taiwan citizen.
Then, a while ago, after moving back to Taiwan and setting up a life, based on the knowledge and acceptance that my son could not obtain Taiwan citizenship, Taiwan’s government passed new legislation, effective retroactively, providing (or stipulating, in my case) that children born of Taiwan citizen mothers and foreign national fathers are now Taiwan citizens.
Per my knowledge, infant US citizens do not need to obtain their own US passport as they can be included on their mother’s or father’s passport (US passport, I believe). And if the mother and father are Taiwan citizens, the infant/child can still leave the US on a Taiwan passport, which the parents could obtain at any of the TECOs in the US.
Incidentally, my son does NOT have a Taiwan passport and we have never had any difficulty leaving taiwan on his US passport.
