No documents necessary

In fact, no documents are necessary for a foreigner to marry in Taiwan. Last year my fiancee (Taiwanese) and I held an engagement banquet. No one performed a ceremony of any kind. Unfortunately our relationship ended sometime later. However, my fiancee simply asserts that the banquet was a wedding banquet (she doesn’t want to break up). I spent more than 10 hours in a Taiwanese court earlier this year, but to no avail. The Judge’s verdict is that our “marriage” is a legal one. No passport, no registration, no medical tests, no license, no single certificate. Apparently, this is a “traditional Taiwanese wedding.”

If you want to save a lot of hassle, simply invite two “witnesses” to dinner and tell them you are now married. I wish I were kidding, but I’m not.

If there are any Taiwanese lawyers out there with an opinion about this, I’d appreciate your input.

You may have gotten married, but your marriage was never officially registered. They are two different things. Unfortunately, the judge doesn’t seem to care that you never registered it. Sorry to hear about your trouble.

[quote=“davis”]In fact, no documents are necessary for a foreigner to marry in Taiwan. Last year my fiancee (Taiwanese) and I held an engagement banquet. No one performed a ceremony of any kind. Unfortunately our relationship ended sometime later. However, my fiancee simply asserts that the banquet was a wedding banquet (she doesn’t want to break up). I spent more than 10 hours in a Taiwanese court earlier this year, but to no avail. The Judge’s verdict is that our “marriage” is a legal one. No passport, no registration, no medical tests, no license, no single certificate. Apparently, this is a “traditional Taiwanese wedding.”

If you want to save a lot of hassle, simply invite two “witnesses” to dinner and tell them you are now married. I wish I were kidding, but I’m not.

If there are any Taiwanese lawyers out there with an opinion about this, I’d appreciate your input.[/quote]

Oh, are you in for a shock.

did the judge know your wife’s family or something.

Based on this ruling, I think anyone can be considered married in Taiwan from now on just by having a banquet. God and I had to go through the pain of getting a single cert and getting it stampled in the TECO office in Dublin. Silly, stupid me!!!

BTW who intiiated the court proceedings? You? Your wife?
Why was this done?

No marriage license no legal marriage. simple as that, and this is true for any country, unless someone with powers i.e priest, captain of a ship, mayor, said you were legally married. Perhaps then the judge would rule it as a legal marriage

Why not try and get married again next week and see deos it pop up somewhere in the record or system. You could perhaps got to the VIBE and pull a corner monster, they may be willing

Does your home country regonise this marriage,. Proabily no way, because there is nothing in law to support this as a valid legal mariage in Taiwan

I got married in a similar manner here in 1996. There was a marriage certificate of sorts - a box set of 2 - his/hers that the witnesses, couple and matchmaker had to chop. We did ours over lunch a couple of weeks before leaving Taiwan the 1st time.

I understand that in the event of a Vibe corner monster turning up (as suggested above) the one with the earliest dated cert wins. These certificates were bought at a stationary shop and are spectacularly tacky.

As to recognition back home - yes! Recognised for tax purposes in Ireland anyway.

So the question is - did you make your mark at the engagement party?

[quote=“The Brother”]I got married in a similar manner here in 1996. There was a marriage certificate of sorts - a box set of 2 - his/hers that the witnesses, couple and matchmaker had to chop. We did ours over lunch a couple of weeks before leaving Taiwan the 1st time.

I understand that in the event of a Vibe corner monster turning up (as suggested above) the one with the earliest dated cert wins. These certificates were bought at a stationary shop and are spectacularly tacky.

As to recognition back home - yes! Recognised for tax purposes in Ireland anyway.

So the question is - did you make your mark at the engagement party?[/quote]

thats it in his post… he never said he signed aything… i am assuming the judge ruled on the event of the banquet and not on anything being signed… not even some cert bought at a stationary shop

This story stinks.

He’s either a troll, or he “married” someone with a few too many connections for his good.

Now, you are sure that nobody gave you a piece of paper signed by anyone? Or that they make you sign something? Hartzell, you must have an opinion.

If you are going to have to have the marriage recognized by various government agencies, you are going to need proof in the form of a certificate. That is my opinion. At any rate, the litmus test is to go with your Taiwanese spouse to the Household Registration Office (HRO) and get the marriage registered in the “spouse column” of the Taiwanese spouse’s Household Registration. If you can do that, then you are married. You will be able to get a Joining Family Resident Visa based on the marriage, (with the filing of some additional documentation regarding your personal situation) with MOFA-BOCA.

As an interesting footnote to the original posting in this thread by davis, and as a further explanation of the complications of “recognition of marriage” when one of the parties is not Taiwanese, my friend in Taichung, (originally from Malaysia), a Mr. Shr, proceeded to get married in Taichung to his Taiwanese girlfriend in 1997, and had the banquet with 15 tables, many witnesses, etc. When they went to the HRO to register the marriage, the officials there refused to do it.

The officials said that Mr. Shr needed a valid visa. At that point Mr. Shr thought back to the last time he had had a valid visa for Taiwan, and realized that he had already overstayed by 16 years — an unfortunate oversight.

We later completed the procedures with the Malaysian Representative Office for Mr. Shr to renounce his Malaysian citizenship, so he is now stateless. There are a number of international conventions on “stateless persons”, but of course none of the Taiwanese government agencies know anything about those (including the Ministry of the Interior). At this point Mr. Shr keeps busy running his fried chicken foodstall, and is thinking of opening another branch. He and his wife have one child now. The child is registered under the mother’s name at the HRO, and she is registered as an unmarried mother.

Whenever the Police try to issue a deportation order against Mr. Shr, he faxes it to me, and I file for an injunction in the Taipei High Administrative Court. That is his current situation.

How about poor davis, who went to an engagement party too many, and ended up married? Any news on his situation, or has he left the country?

David,

This isn’t “wry humor” is it? Didn’t I just read about you and Britney - getting married in Las Vegas or something like that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.

Just don’t make a bigger mistake and get “your wife” pregnant. Then the real marriage problems (complications) will kick.

I have heard that you are considered married when you are recognized by family and friends as being married (the wedding dinner). However, I don’t believe that your home country would recognize that - this is only opinion, not fact.

An interesting story by Hartzell about Mr. Shr.

Good luck.
Vince

I’m quite interested in the outcome of Davis’ unfortunate entanglement as I’m in precisely the same situation.
My ex-fiance (Taiwanese born, dual citizen of Taiwan and New Zealand) and I planned to marry in New Zealand where we both live, but to save her friends and family the trip to NZ for the wedding, we had a pre-wedding reception (banquet) in Taiwan. Again, no intention to marry on that particular day, no documents signed, no ceremony, no vows, etc.
When we returned to NZ I had a growing feeling we were making a mistake to be marrying and called off the wedding that we had planned. I subsequently found that I was a few weeks too late in doing this, as it seems that banquet in honour of the upcoming wedding was in fact a legal wedding itself!! (Mutual friends in Taiwan told us this.) At least that is the message I’m getting from Taiwan at the moment – our friends in Taiwan are in contact with divorce lawyers there who are saying the same thing. The suggestion on the table is that we go through the hellish proceedings of registering the marriage and getting a dissolution by divorce. Seems rather a lot of effort to go to when it was an accidental “marriage” that neither of us now want and of which there is no legal record…
I’m wondering, can we not simply both swear and declare that it wasn’t a wedding (she was apparently as ignorant of the legal ramifications of having a banquet as I was!) and let that be the end of the matter?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[quote=“TNT”]No marriage license no legal marriage. simple as that, and this is true for any country, unless someone with powers i.e priest, captain of a ship, mayor, said you were legally married. Perhaps then the judge would rule it as a legal marriage
[/quote]
Not quite true… :wink: at least in the U.S.

unmarried.org/common.html
wordiq.com/definition/Common-law_marriage

[quote=“abram”]
When we returned to NZ I had a growing feeling we were making a mistake to be marrying and called off the wedding that we had planned. I subsequently found that I was a few weeks too late in doing this, as it seems that banquet in honour of the upcoming wedding was in fact a legal wedding itself!! (Mutual friends in Taiwan told us this.) At least that is the message I’m getting from Taiwan at the moment – our friends in Taiwan are in contact with divorce lawyers there who are saying the same thing. The suggestion on the table is that we go through the hellish proceedings of registering the marriage and getting a dissolution by divorce. Seems rather a lot of effort to go to when it was an accidental “marriage” that neither of us now want and of which there is no legal record…
I’m wondering, can we not simply both swear and declare that it wasn’t a wedding (she was apparently as ignorant of the legal ramifications of having a banquet as I was!) and let that be the end of the matter?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.[/quote]

I think there could be a misunderstanding here between a legally registered marriage, and having a banquet, getting hung baos, letting the parents know etc, which to a lot of Taiwanese people may equate to being married.

Back to Hartzell’s comment above… if you are legally married then why not go with the marriage license ( in your case perhaps pictures of the banquet) and add your name to the household registration

I don’t think photos of the banquet would pass as a marriage license or cert. Therefore I don’t think they would register you as being married or in other words recognise you as being married.
You need to sign something and have a piece paper else where is the proof you are married

I am not too sure on how you go about nullifying a marriage in Taiwan… and if there is a way… or is the general rule here when in doubt people just have a divorce

Why not just sign divorce papers??.. if you are really married then you will become divorced… if you are not married, then no loss… the divorce papers mean nothing

I talked to a lawyer in Taiwan and apparently it’s true – the reception in and of itself is legally binding and any attempt by either of us to marry again in Taiwan could be stopped (presumably by those who were “witnesses” at the reception) or even result in prosecution (although how someone would get the charge of “already married” to stick in the absence of any paperwork beats me). Bizarre laws. (No annulments granted in Taiwan either, I’ve been told.)

None of this is of any particular concern to me, as I’m not likely to be “married” in Taiwan again, but for the sake of my ex-fiance (wife?), who may well want to marry in Taiwan in the future, the situation does need some tidying up.

It seems that registering the marriage and then filing for divorce is the only way to leave no legal question marks over our marital status (can’t divorce without registering the marriage first – another bummer). Kind of a pity … I won’t be able to tick the “never married” box anymore when filling in official forms. I guess I’ll attain a form of uniqueness, however, by becoming NZ’s first divorced virgin. (Too much information, I know; still … it shows how truly unmarried we are, doesn’t it?)

I’m a bit confused. I have heard of Taiwanese getting locked into marriage in the same way. They hadn’t yet registered but had a wedding banquet and were considered married by a court of law in Taiwan. They later got divorced.

The original poster, on the other hand, started out by saying that he had an engagement banquet, not a wedding banquet. The two are not the same. Abram, what exactly did everyone call your Taiwan banquet? A lot of people have engagement banquets in Taiwan, HK and China. They are usually small affairs that only involve family and a few close friends. They could be informal; they often serve as a planning meeting for the wedding banquet that comes later. Or they could be more formal, but such banquets seem quite rare. No matter what, though, they are nothing like what would be recognized as a “real” wedding banquet. The latter is full of rituals. The former is just a dinner.

Were you told that this banquet was an engagement banquet? If so, I see no reason why a court would decide that you are married. What exactly happened at this banquet? Practices vary, but most wedding banquets follow similar customs and rituals. Were red envelopes received? Was candy, etc., handed out at the door as guests left? How was the venue decorated? Are there witness who are attesting that it was a “wedding banquet” or a banquet to recognize a wedding? What are they offering as “proof?” If they have none, then any chump who happened to get roped into any sort of banquet with his girlfriend could be told later that he had married her.

This thread highlights what to me is a peculiar attitude that Chinese societies have about marriage and weddings. What’s the average “engagement” period for any Taiwanese people you know? For the couples I know, if they actually had an engagement period, it was usually damn short. Most of them registered before they had the banquet. At first that seemed really strange to me. It seems to me that Chinese people don’t really recognize “engagement.” You’re either married or you’re not. As soon as you make public your intention to get married, you are much more locked into it than in the west. Many parents seem to have the attitude that once the couple have made their intentions known and the parents have agreed, they shouldn’t delay on registration. They don’t want anybody to have a chance to get cold feet.

Chinese weddings seem rather anti-climactic to me. Most couples, especially Taiwanese couples, do all the photos before the wedding. It seems that most Taiwanese couples “register” (which means they are legally married) before-sometimes long before-the day of their wedding banquet. The wedding banquet itself and the hours preceeding it are full of small, superstitious rituals that on their own or all together serve no function to “certify” the marriage. Unlike the Christian, Jewish or Hindu weddings I’ve seen, there is no “moment of truth” when the man and woman are given one last chance to back out. There is no “transformative” moment where just one minute before the couple were seen as single, but one minute later are considered a new family.

I’m quite glad that both my wife and I are Christians. That statement has little to do with actual religious beliefs. To us, our church wedding had meaning. We were single one minute and married the next. There was a clear-cut ceremony with a climax. Rather than having silly games with a blindfold or everyone’s attention focused on the quality of the shark fin soup, the meaning of marriage was explained and everyone’s attention was focused on marriage. It was solemn. The Chinese wedding, on the other hand, had little meaning for us. Despite the expensive food and liquor and the red envelopes, it actually felt kind of cheap and trashy. Even though my wife is Chinese, she felt the same way. It wasn’t just our banquet, either. We’ve had the same feeling at just about every other wedding banquet we’ve attended. This is obviously quite judgemental of us. After a while, we just started reminding ourselves to not think about it so much. If the banquet really means something to the people getting married, then great. I wonder, though, if such banquets really do mean much to the people getting married. From the looks I’ve seen on many of the faces of Taiwanese couples at their wedding banquets, I’m left with doubts about how meaningful the banquet really is for them.

These are obviously just my own views. There are plenty of us here who’ve married Taiwanese or Chinese people. How did you feel about your wedding(s)?

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]
Abram, what exactly did everyone call your Taiwan banquet? A lot of people have engagement banquets in Taiwan, HK and China. They are usually small affairs that only involve family and a few close friends.

Were you told that this banquet was an engagement banquet? If so, I see no reason why a court would decide that you are married. What exactly happened at this banquet? Practices vary, but most wedding banquets follow similar customs and rituals. Were red envelopes received? Was candy, etc., handed out at the door as guests left? How was the venue decorated? Are there witness who are attesting that it was a “wedding banquet” or a banquet to recognize a wedding? What are they offering as “proof?”

There are plenty of us here who’ve married Taiwanese or Chinese people. How did you feel about your wedding(s)?[/quote]

You ask some good questions…I’ll try to answer them.

I wanted it made clear to everyone that it was a reception to celebrate the upcoming wedding, but my then-fiancee wanted it to resemble a Chinese wedding to all on-lookers. I remember us having a bit of a heated discussion of this when I first heard she wanted this, as we’d clearly agreed the wedding was to be in NZ later on. In the end, however, I think it was touted as a wedding in the Chinese written on the invites, although I made sure that the English translation could be read both ways.

We didn’t call it an engagement banquet – it was supposed to be like a wedding reception, only before the wedding rather than after it. A bit weird, but the idea was to save her rellies the expense of travelling to NZ for the real deal. A bit naive of me in hindsight.

Red envelopes were received (they’ll be returned in due course) and candy was given out as the guests left. The decorations were flowery-tacky-wedding-style. I guess every “witness” there was thinking “wedding”, even though I certainly wasn’t – apparently the absence of a ceremony didn’t disconcert anyone. She was dressed in bridal attire, there was a processional played as we walked in, we lit a few candles on the head table. I and a kiwi friend of mine gave speeches. We ate. We toasted the guests at each table. We left. That was it. If there was a ceremony of marriage somewhere in there I’m afraid that I didn’t spot it. (I’ve got it all on videotape.)

I can’t say how I feel about my wedding, as I don’t feel like I’ve had one yet. If that truly was a wedding then I’m feeling horribly cheated. Not by my ex-fiancee (she says she didn’t know the legalities), but by Taiwan’s dodgy legal system.

Smart girl.

It was touted as a wedding? Then it was a wedding, mr married man. I don’t think the guests and the judge will give a hoot about the English translation.

Well… so they attended a wedding. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. They all thought that you were married… So well… You were in the eyes of the whole Taiwanese family. Moreover, face considerations also made their way into it, so well. You are married, and all protests to the opposite will take you nowhere.

All of this above was part of my wedding. It’s a wedding thing, not an engagament thing.

Jive Turkey mentioned that there are no “moments of truth” in Chinese wedding banquets. Therefore a ceremony was not expected. The Taiwanese guests would have become disconcerted if there had been one.

Bridal attire, bride and groom toasting everyone… Yup, that’s a wedding. Congrats. Moreover, if you show the tape to the judge, he will say the same thing.

Hmmm, in the eyes of her family she was a married woman after this wedding. As you broke up shortly afterwards, then well, one could understand that she was not happy. After all, the wedding banquet had been held, and well, then everybody local would say that she’s married. Loss of face for her and her family.

Well, you better change the subject to “Married after wedding banquet”. Moreover, you better find a lawyer.

The thinking must be if the parents agree then in the eyes of the law the couple is married, whether the groom and bride consent in writing or by saying “I do”… must be a throw back from their 5000 years of culture when you would marry you daughter off

Talking of registering the marriage… are you talking about the Household registration and entering your name on it?
But then how can you do that when you have no marriage cert… but then if you are married why do you need a cert to enter your name on the household registration… or will the word of the father in law do
This seems very strange

It would make an interesting case if you did sign the divorce paper and see what happens without registering the marriage…

Can the marriage be annulled since you did not know that you were being married at the time?

Smart girl.[/quote]

If I thought she was that, I’d happily walk away and never give another thought to a half-baked, unregistered “wedding” I’d had in some foreign country of dubious sovereignty, leaving her to deal with it as best she pleases. As it stands, she’s a decent, honest person who deserves better than that.

Well… so they attended a wedding. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. They all thought that you were married… So well… You were in the eyes of the whole Taiwanese family. Moreover, face considerations also made their way into it, so well. You are married, and all protests to the opposite will take you nowhere.[/quote]

Pity that ducks quack so differently in NZ.

“Face considerations”…yes; I don’t doubt that I’ll end up in a shallow grave on the outskirts of Taipei if I ever show myself in Taiwan again. I don’t think, however, that somebody else’s opinion of your marital status is the determining factor as to whether you’re married or not. There must be something more to it than that.

Hmmm, in the eyes of her family she was a married woman after this wedding. As you broke up shortly afterwards, then well, one could understand that she was not happy. After all, the wedding banquet had been held, and well, then everybody local would say that she’s married. Loss of face for her and her family.[/quote]

I didn’t expect anyone would be particularly happy about the whole breaking up business. Heck, I wasn’t happy about it myself, but it had to be done.

“…everybody local would say that she’s married.”…well, yeah, of course they would, but again I come back to the point: is it local opinion that determines whether a couple is married or not? In Taiwan, the answer to that appears to be “yes”; in which case I guess I’ll just have to continue to mutter disparaging comments about Taiwan’s flaky legal system and get on with the rigmarole of registration and divorce.

[quote]Talking of registering the marriage… are you talking about the Household registration and entering your name on it?
But then how can you do that when you have no marriage cert… but then if you are married why do you need a cert to enter your name on the household registration… or will the word of the father in law do
This seems very strange

It would make an interesting case if you did sign the divorce paper and see what happens without registering the marriage…

Can the marriage be annulled since you did not know that you were being married at the time?[/quote]

Yeah, we’re talking about registration at the Household Registration place; doing the whole certificate of singleness thing in order to get a marriage certificate. As to your comment about this seeming very strange … absolutely! I think the whole thing seems damned surreal!! But then, I just did a two week stopover in Taiwan for a “pre-wedding reception” – perhaps it’s not so strange to those familiar with the country, the culture and, in particular, the customs of marriage in Taiwan.

Signing divorce papers without registering the marriage would, I’m sure, simply draw blank stares (and equally blank refusals to comply) from those in the household registry paid to file them.

In New Zealand, marriage by accident is grounds for an annulment. In Taiwan, I’m thus far led to believe, marriage by accident is until by-divorce-do-you-part.

My latest plan is to see whether it can be solemnised in Taiwan and annulled in NZ (since we have some pretty rock solid reasons for annulment under NZ law). Probably not, but I’ll ask lawyers here anyway.