Not about Kojen

Gilgamesh · July 16, 2005, 10:11am

And the fact is that this is highly unlikely to happen, despite being technically possible.

[/quote]

Not at all impossible or unlikely. I know of someone who was pre-ARC that was deported and forbidden to return to Taiwan for five years. Happened six months ago.[/quote]

Certainly possible, as I said. But until we can find more than one person in the last 6 months, it remains ‘unlikely’.[/quote]

It also happened to a friend of mine and she was deported for five years. This was a few years ago though.

At a school I taught at in Taipei, the government found out we were working in a kindi as well as a buxiban and they cancelled all of our ARCs (three teachers). They then sent us a letter stating that we had 7 days to leave the country. I went and asked them for more time to get my affairs in order but they said I could stay until my visa expired but I had better not get caught working again at the same place (or anywhere else without an work permit). The other teacher was married so didnt have to leave and the third teacher just took off to China. The owners must have really pissed someone off.

xp_10K · July 16, 2005, 12:30pm

[quote=“Gilgamesh”]It also happened to a friend of mine and she was deported for five years. This was a few years ago though.

At a school I taught at in Taipei, the government found out we were working in a kindi as well as a buxiban and they cancelled all of our ARCs (three teachers). They then sent us a letter stating that we had 7 days to leave the country. I went and asked them for more time to get my affairs in order but they said I could stay until my visa expired but I had better not get caught working again at the same place (or anywhere else without an work permit). The other teacher was married so didnt have to leave and the third teacher just took off to China. The owners must have really pissed someone off.[/quote]

Thanks for the information, citizen k and Gilgamesh. Information such as the above can help people weigh risks, plan, and make decisions.

brian · July 17, 2005, 5:10am

It is not my intention to offend citizen k or Gilgamesh, but I do have some questions about the posts that they have made. Over the years I have become very wary of any comment involving

brian · July 17, 2005, 5:43am

Where is it that I blame the teacher? I don

Toasty · July 17, 2005, 7:10am

The evidence for my claims that you are an apologist and uncritically pro ROC at the expense of fellow expats lies in your posts, Brian. Even look at what you just wrote. People whose names appear on blacklists probably deserve to be there? Can you say that in every case? No abuse at all? C’mon! That policy is pandering to interest groups at the expense of Foreign teachers. Do you think such a policy would exist if we had voting rights or some political capital to give to local politicians and lawmakers? I am pro teacher because I see things more clearly than you. I haven’t lost my perspective as westerner from a real democracy. I don’t look at incompetence and call it responsible, fair government. I don’t see things like police inaction during huge open displays of organized crime and declare “it was an intelligent move on behalf of the government” for them to stand by and do nothing. I’m sure it was in your world Brian. You’ll kindly tell me when the police are planning their big, mass arrests with all that evidence they gathered from the sidelines, then. Most people know they aren’t coming.

The OP’s post should not be seen as just a warning against Kojen. It is also a warning against standard English school practices island wide. I say when teachers encounter problems here it is quite often the result of systemic problems and unfair/unclear practices on the part of schools and even the government. There are teachers with attitudes and who get themselves into their own messes; but for you to claim anyone who finds themself on a blacklist “deserves” it-- or that the very presence of the policy is the fault of teachers-- shows just how much of an apologist you are. Your point of view represents the opposite extreme of Aritotle’s-- just as delusional and incorrect IMO.

Gilgamesh · July 17, 2005, 7:33am

Brian

The friend who was deported is my ex-girlfriend. Sorry, she is long gone and I have no way of knowing where she is. I had to help get her out of the jail station by finding a Taiwanese citizen to vouch for her. Anyway, she was working at a school but did not have a work permit(and no intention of getting one). The police came to the school pretending to be prospective parents and filmed all the teachers teaching. They then stated they were from the police and arrested all the teachers. Once she had a Taiwanese citizen to vouch for her she was allowed to leave the police station but had to leave Taiwan within a week. She left and stayed away for a year and then came back. She thought she was only deported for a year since no one actually told her how long she had to stay away. She arrived on a visitor visa and started working again. She just flew to Hong Kong every two months to renew. On the second or third renewal while she was in the Taiwan airport going through customs the customs officer pulled up her file on the computer and told her that she had been deported for five years and was not allowed back in. She had to get friends to pack up all her stuff and mail it to her since they wouldnt let her leave the airport or go through customs. This all happened about six years ago or so.

As to my case, all of my work was within the same school. The kindi and bushiban were run by the same people at the same place. Our school used to have two different locations, one for the buxiban and the other for the kindi. Eventually, they moved the buxiban to the same location as the kindi but they kept the buxiban address to apply for the ARC’s and work permits. Apparently this fact and that we were in kindi’s were enough to cancel our work permit.
I really don’t know who came to the school to catch us although at different times there were a few people who came and took pictures of us teaching. They just showed up outside of the classroom and took the pictures and left. No warning or anything. We were never arrested or anything like that. Apparently, the government found out about us not working at the same address as the address on our work permits. After this happened, our boss moved us to the buxiban address and would transport the kids from the kindi to the buxiban for our classes (it was about a five minute drive away). This went on for about a month and then our boss informed us that our work permits had been cancelled. A few days later we received letters from the Foreign Affairs Police stating that we had seven days to leave the country. Our boss requested that our work permits be renewed for work at the buxiban but he was told that he could apply for new work permits just not for us. We would not be allowed to work at his school.
I went to the Foreign Affairs Police after receiving the letter stating I had seven days to leave the country. I told them that I had been in Taiwan for a long time and that I needed more than seven days to get my affairs in order. I told them I was willing to leave but needed a few weeks. The woman told me not to worry about it and that since our work permits were cancelled they had to send the letter but since they were not stamping my passport with a stamp stating I had to leave then I could stay until my visa expired. My visa and ARC had just been renewed about a month before this happened so I actually had almost a full year left on my visa. She was quite clear about not working anymore unless I got a new work permit but she did not say that I would not be able to get a new one. She also said I was not allowed to go back to work at my present school.
I had been planning on leaving in four or five months anyway, so I just packed my bags and spent four months backpacking through Mexico, riding the trains through the U.S. and driving across Canada.
Then I came back to Taiwan and entered on my old visa which was still good. I had no problems getting back into the country. I am married now and have had no trouble relating to this incident.
This all happened about four years ago. If you have any other questions I will try to remember but it was awhile ago.

I did get deported for an overstay once but that’s a different story.

Fortigurn · July 17, 2005, 10:41am

Gilgamesh, thanks for your last post. It substantiates what Brian has been saying. It’s good to have firsthand evidence of this kind.

ironlady · July 17, 2005, 1:04pm

The point is, for every school that does apply (in a timely fashion or not) for an ARC – even if it were true that you won’t have any problems if you’re “only” working before getting your ARC – which means working before you have been approved by the government, which leaves open the substantial possibility that you might be turned down – there are probably five more who hire without any intention of obtaining an ARC for the teacher.

The issue at hand is whether or not it is right for a company of any sort to represent that an employee may work at its premises legally. Everyone knows that the companies in question tend to, er, stretch the truth as it suits them in many cases. There are schools which say accurately that one must not work before obtaining the work permit – which means obtaining governmental permission to work – actually the ARC is merely a residence permit which is obtained within 10 days of receiving the documentation permitting you to work.

The problem is that there is an unending supply of newbies who don’t know what the law is in Taiwan. Since very few people would bother to question the word of an “established school” in terms of whether it is or is not legal for them to teach there, and since most people would not suspect that it would be illegal to teach English in any case, the buxibans have in effect an unending supply of cannon fodder. Do most of them get deported? Not as things stand.

But keep in mind that in Chinese culture, the law is a highly changeable thing. Today it’s enforced, tomorrow it’s not, but mostly it depends on whom you’ve offended, or what the major focus of policy is at the moment.

And don’t even get me going on tax abuses by buxibans on foreign employees who “won’t know” the tax law. How many of those schools withhold taxes for the months of work before the work permit is granted, and then never submit that money to the government? Quite a few.

brian · July 17, 2005, 2:10pm

I join Fortigurn in thanking you for the extensive information in your post Gilgamesh. Yours is a very interesting story and one that raises a very valid concern. That is, that the ARC only entitles the teacher to work at one workplace, regardless of the fact that some employers may have more than one school. The only way to be 100% legal is to ensure that the employer name stated on your ARC is the same as the employer name on the certificate of registration which should be hung on a wall in the school. The fact that these are written in Chinese characters makes it difficult for someone who doesn’t read Chinese, but if you can do this then you can be sure that you are legal.

So it does seem that this friend is an example of someone deported for working illegally without an ARC. It was certainly unfortunate for her as there were many working illegally years ago, but it doesn’t bring us much closer to determining whether or not any teachers with an ARC to work have ever been deported for working at a second school or in a kindergarten.

So it seems that you were caught for working at a second school, which up until recently, has been illegal. Each school has its own registered Chinese name, and in order to work in both of the schools legally you would have had to have both of the schools registered Chinese names on your ARC. I have sympathy for teachers who run into strife in this situation as it is very difficult for teachers to determine the legality or illegality of positions in this case. It seems to me that the authorities recognize that the schools are at fault in these situations, and not the teachers, and this is no doubt why teachers are often given warnings. This seems to have been what happened in Gilamesh’s case.

I think that the rest of the story shows how the authorities are not out to get teachers, and that they are willing to work with teachers who have been caught up in this mess. Four years ago when Gilgamesh encountered these problems there was very little information out there about this sort of thing, and I am sure that the Gilgamesh was not the only teacher to have faced these problems. Nowadays, the information is out there for any teachers who even make the smallest effort of looking, and of course, it is advisable that teachers educate themselves and research as much as possible to possibly avoid getting into this sort of a mess.

Thanks again Gilgamesh, yours is certainly an interesting story, and it is refreshing to see that you don’t hold this all against the people of Taiwan as some people do.

brian · July 17, 2005, 2:37pm

Where? Quote me Toasty and maybe then I will see what you are talking about. Otherwise I have to say that I categorically disagree with your opinion.

I used the word ‘legitimately’ in my post as this is an important consideration. So assuming that we are talking about teachers who have been blacklisted for legitimate reasons then yes I do agree that these teachers do deserve to be there. I don’t agree that blacklisting should be forever, but I do agree that there should be repercussions for people who break their contracts and run away without notice. That’s who we are talking about here. We are not talking about people who break their contracts with notice. We are talking about teachers who are there one day and gone the next.

You have raised your concerns of abuse before and I have answered those concerns. In my opinion I do not see abuse as being too much of a concern at all. My reasons are:

I have personally spoken with some members of the CLA involved with this foreign teacher side of things and I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that they obviously have their heads screwed on right.
Schools have no say in the blacklisting process. The CLA puts a mark next to your name, not the schools, and in many cases the schools may not even now that this has been done. So this raises the question as to why someone in the CLA, who has never met you, would go to the trouble of blacklisting you maliciously.
I am confident that the appeals process in place is reasonable. Will it make every teacher a happy camper? Probably not. Will it reverse blacklistings that have been enacted improperly? I believe so based upon the opinions of the people I have spoken with at the CLA.

So now your turn. What evidence do you have that the system will be abused? Can you state categorically that it will be abused?

How so?

I assume that you are referring to buxiban owners when you say interest groups. As I have pointed out, schools do not have any direct say in whether or not a teacher gets blacklisted, and teachers are not blacklisted for any other reason than contract breach without notice. This is a legsilative matter, not one of revenge.

As we all know, there are several buxiban owners on this very forum, and I personally consider most of these to be intelligent and experienced individuals. Interestingly, until a teacher brought the return of teacher blacklisting to all of our attention a couple of months back, not even these owners knew that blacklisting was back again. So if as you suggest, buxiban owners campaigned for teacher blacklisting, then how is that so few of them actually know about it.

The fact is that teacher blacklisting has always been possible under the relevant legislation, and has been used with blue collar workers for some time. It is just that the CLA has now decided to exercise it against foreign teachers also. Learn to live with it!

You know you might be right there.

I can honestly say that I have become a bit of a realist. I no longer subscribe to the concept of people being entitled to things just because certain entitlements exist. Now I actually question these matters and try to get to the bottom of it. You can argue the processes and the motives all you like, but at the end of the day it doesn’t help a single person. I prefer to put my money where my mouth is and try to make a difference. This is why I post here. And this is why I have become involved with the site that you referred to earlier.

I don’t know what your law enforcement experience with organized crime is like, but I can honestly say that I hadn’t given it a second thought. I can see a lot of sense in what I was told about the mafia funeral from a law enforcement perspective, and unless you have something to add that discredits this, then I am quite happy to continue suggesting that there may have been a reason that the funeral was allowed to happen in such a public way.

No mass arrests, but arrests of gangsters stemming directly from the participation of these gangsters in that funeral have already occured. You are out of the loop Toasty and should probably read the local papers more often.

And how does that help teachers?

Give it up Toasty. You have suggested this on a number of occasions and I have answered your posts each time. If you want to continue to suggest this then you are going to have to support it with something.

Fortigurn · July 17, 2005, 3:32pm

I have to agree with Brian here. Toasty, I can’t accept your characterisation of him as an apologist for the ROC at the expense of expats.

Everything I’ve seen of Brian in the last two years on two different forums has convinced me that he has the welfare of his fellow expats very firmly in view.

Toasty · July 17, 2005, 4:31pm

Where? Quote me Toasty and maybe then I will see what you are talking about. Otherwise I have to say that I categorically disagree with your opinion.

I used the word ‘legitimately’ in my post as this is an important consideration. So assuming that we are talking about teachers who have been blacklisted for legitimate reasons then yes I do agree that these teachers do deserve to be there. I don’t agree that blacklisting should be forever, but I do agree that there should be repercussions for people who break their contracts and run away without notice. That’s who we are talking about here. We are not talking about people who break their contracts with notice. We are talking about teachers who are there one day and gone the next.

You have raised your concerns of abuse before and I have answered those concerns. In my opinion I do not see abuse as being too much of a concern at all. My reasons are:

I have personally spoken with some members of the CLA involved with this foreign teacher side of things and I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that they obviously have their heads screwed on right.
Schools have no say in the blacklisting process. The CLA puts a mark next to your name, not the schools, and in many cases the schools may not even now that this has been done. So this raises the question as to why someone in the CLA, who has never met you, would go to the trouble of blacklisting you maliciously.
I am confident that the appeals process in place is reasonable. Will it make every teacher a happy camper? Probably not. Will it reverse blacklistings that have been enacted improperly? I believe so based upon the opinions of the people I have spoken with at the CLA.

So now your turn. What evidence do you have that the system will be abused? Can you state categorically that it will be abused?

How so?

I assume that you are referring to buxiban owners when you say interest groups. As I have pointed out, schools do not have any direct say in whether or not a teacher gets blacklisted, and teachers are not blacklisted for any other reason than contract breach without notice. This is a legsilative matter, not one of revenge.

As we all know, there are several buxiban owners on this very forum, and I personally consider most of these to be intelligent and experienced individuals. Interestingly, until a teacher brought the return of teacher blacklisting to all of our attention a couple of months back, not even these owners knew that blacklisting was back again. So if as you suggest, buxiban owners campaigned for teacher blacklisting, then how is that so few of them actually know about it.

The fact is that teacher blacklisting has always been possible under the relevant legislation, and has been used with blue collar workers for some time. It is just that the CLA has now decided to exercise it against foreign teachers also. Learn to live with it!

You know you might be right there.

I can honestly say that I have become a bit of a realist. I no longer subscribe to the concept of people being entitled to things just because certain entitlements exist. Now I actually question these matters and try to get to the bottom of it. You can argue the processes and the motives all you like, but at the end of the day it doesn’t help a single person. I prefer to put my money where my mouth is and try to make a difference. This is why I post here. And this is why I have become involved with the site that you referred to earlier.

I don’t know what your law enforcement experience with organized crime is like, but I can honestly say that I hadn’t given it a second thought. I can see a lot of sense in what I was told about the mafia funeral from a law enforcement perspective, and unless you have something to add that discredits this, then I am quite happy to continue suggesting that there may have been a reason that the funeral was allowed to happen in such a public way.

No mass arrests, but arrests of gangsters stemming directly from the participation of these gangsters in that funeral have already occured. You are out of the loop Toasty and should probably read the local papers more often.

And how does that help teachers?

Give it up Toasty. You have suggested this on a number of occasions and I have answered your posts each time. If you want to continue to suggest this then you are going to have to support it with something.[/quote]

Whatever, Brian. You call for evidence. I have already given it. Policies unfair and undemocratic come in and you support the government on them. You blame the “bad teachers” for their existence in the first place, as if that is really the issue. No Brian, I have given plenty of evidence. If you won’t accept evidence that doesn’t support your agenda, that’s not my problem.

Fortigun, I have been reading Brian and his various reincarnations over on Daves for quite a while. Longer than you, I’d bet. I used to, like you, support him. However, I have come to see his projection of western law and order mentality onto Taiwan as a flawed view and one that doesn’t fit Taiwan. Brian’s defense of the flawed practices of government and schools here is wrong. His attitude toward his fellow expat (as evident in his assertion that blacklisted teachers always deserve what they get, similarly those who get caught in kindies) is alarming.

My point of view is simple: School practices such as the one shown in the OP are wrong. They are symptomatic of a larger problem. Teachers victimized by unscrupulous practices are not at fault. I make no apologies for being pro-teacher where unfair regulations or shady school practices are concerned. Brian, on these types of issues, is very pro-establishment.

brian · July 18, 2005, 2:15am

Thanks Fortigurn. Your comments are appreciated.

I know that you hate the quote function on message boards Toasty, but I ask you to quote where this evidence is in your posts. This is a genuine request as I just don’t see that you have supported your opinion on this matter.

I am not talking about your opinions that you have expressed on a number of occasions both here and at Daves about me. You may have noticed that I have largely being ignoring your posts over at Daves, and the reason is that you are not bringing anything new to the table. You just keep repeating the same old opinions without even supporting why you have these opinions.

So I ask you again, please show me where, in my posts here and at Daves, have I shown myself to be an apologist?

Do I think that the government in Taiwan makes mistakes and some very silly decisions? Of course I do. Everyone does.

Do I think that Taiwan is a den of inequity for foreigners, and that the government and school owners are out to get us? No I don’t.

Life is not always fair Toasty, you just need to learn to live with it. There are certain things about the way the government and schools handle things that I would love to change, but that doesn’t mean that we teachers need to develop an us and them mentality. That’s not going to help anyone.

Firstly, I have never used the phrase ‘bad teachers’. That is a phrase that you have coined. For me it doesn’t matter if it is a school or a teacher. If you want to quote me in this manner then you should quote me for a phrase that I often use in this situation and that is ‘I support those who have been wronged, and I stand up against those who are doing the wrong thing.’

If the person doing the wrong thing happens to be a teacher then yes I will stand up and call a spade a spade. Why, what do you do Toasty? My guess is that you will stand up for teachers you personally believe in, but go all quiet when you see a teacher behaving badly for fear of appearing anti-teacher.

Where!!!

You keep saying that you have provided plenty of evidence, but I can’t see it. So show me where it is. If there is plenty of it out there then it shouldn’t be terribly difficult for you to find some of it.

Just for clarification, those were not really reincarnations. I have always posted the same content and same opinions, it is just that I have been forced to change names twice now after being removed from that forum.

Huh! And yet you suggest in the quote below that your perspective as a westerner is what ensures that you are right:

So the western perspective used in Taiwan is either good or bad Toasty. I don’t see how it can be good for you, but bad for me.

That’s a bit like your earlier comments in this thread that you never really explained about how in one sentence you suggested that teachers should have no reason to suspect large companies who recruit overseas, while on the other hand you suggested that these companies are dishonest.

I

ironlady · July 18, 2005, 12:16pm

I am not certain why there should be an institutionalized blacklist for teachers when such a list apparently does not exist for other (“white-collar”) foreigners who work in Taiwan. (Obviously there is such a list for domestic helpers and factory workers; that is not the focus of this thread.)

IF the government ensured a standard employment contract for foreign teachers, I could see them having the right to impose a blacklist. But as things are, no matter why a foreigner fails to work out the entire contract period, he faces the risk of blacklisting based on the word of the school, whose contract may or may not have been a) clearly stated, b) the same in Chinese and English (if an English version is even supplied) and c) fair.

If there are consequences for breaking a contract, there should also be consecquences for SCHOOLS breaking contracts – not providing the agreed-upon hours, shifting locations, demanding that folks work before the necessary permits and so forth are in place. Yet there seems to be no talk of THAT. They’re Taiwanese. You’re cannon-fodder, as a buxiban teacher, in many cases. You leave, we get another one. Or two. Or ten. And probably cheaper.

As for Taiwan being a “den of inequity” for foreigners, yes it is. Compare the deal you have on an ARC or a PARC with an American Green Card. It’s nothing similar at all. One job, one employers, 7 days to clear out if something goes wrong. And better yet, talk to an average Taiwanese on the street and ask if they are aware of the regulations restricting foreigners in terms of employment, residence, cell phones, credit cards, etc. etc. etc. Most of them have no idea. They love to have their little darlings taught by Suzy Creamcheese, that nice Western teacher, but they have no idea that Suzy does not enjoy the same living situaiton they do. They see only the (in their opinion) obscenely high salary that Suzy earns.

When the deck is stacked so heavily in favor of the schools – who have the advantage in terms of language, local knowledge, local connections, money, even merely having a better personal support network emotionally – teachers should have some degree of “preferential” support from the authorities, not an arbitrary blacklist mechanism.

Toasty · July 18, 2005, 12:33pm

[quote=“brian”]Thanks Fortigurn. Your comments are appreciated.