Not about Royal Nazis

Modlang and a few others here don’t seem to get it, so this is a good discussion.

In fact, uniforms and symbols of all mass murderers should not be worn in jest, anytime, anywhere, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Emperor Hirohito, agreed. Yes.

But if you do not understand why Hitler memorabilia is especially sicko, then you don’t get it. My guess is that Jewish people understand, and that many non-Jewish people understand too. I don’t think one has to be Jewish to feel the revulsion here. Hitler will be remembered for over 1000 years, get used to it, mod lang. 100 years is nothing…

but yes, all these other mass murderers…they should not be lionized either, and their uniforms and symbols should not be paraded lightly. of course!

Hitler was just one mass murdered among many in history. He doesn’t win any awards. They should all rot in hell.

QUOTE: “Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging dark of segregation to say, “Wait.” But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six-year-old daughter why she can’t go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son who is asking: “Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?”; when you take a cross-county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading “white” and “colored”; when your first name becomes “nigger,” your middle name becomes “boy” (however old you are) and your last name becomes “John,” and your wife and mother are never given the respected title “Mrs.”; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you know forever fighting a degenerating sense of “nobodiness” then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience.” – Martin Luther King, in “Letter from Birmingham Jail.”

[quote=“lane119”]
But if you do not understand why Hitler memorabilia is especially sicko, then you don’t get it. My guess is that Jewish people understand, and that many non-Jewish people understand too. I don’t think one has to be Jewish to feel the revulsion here. Hitler will be remembered for over 1000 years, get used to it, mod lang. 100 years is nothing…[/quote]
You are quite possibly right. Why is Hitler memorabilia ‘especially sicko’? Well let’s see there is a very strong lobbying group that works to make sure no one forgets who the victims were. Do the victims of Stalins purge have their own country, do they operate special centers around the world that search out anyone wearing something from that era, do the sue people for selling goods with Stalin’s face tacked on it? Have they managed to convince us that they have the right to bomb and kill innocent victims because their family members (and a very few of them) were victimized? Do we give them billions of dollars in aid every year so they can buy new weapons to kill those who oppose them? Are they allowed to have atomic weapons because they were victims in the past? For you this is black and white, for me there are a lot of gray areas here. No I am not being callous but realistic.
Ignoring for one second the actions of Hitler if at all possible, why do you think Israel gets away with as much shit as it does? Guilt…good old judeao-christian guilt.
I think you are the one that doesn’t get it. You grieve and then you go on with your life. You don’t give inanimate objects power over your intellectual abilities. An idiot kid wearing a costume he selected in bad taste is just that - an idiot and a kid. He wasn’t trying to make some hidden statement about his latent Nazi beliefs.

As for this quote, well that applies to the majority of people in the U.S. today…they have never felt the stinging dark of segregation…
(Another personal story since some people on here love my stories, I remember coming out of a Spike Lee movie with my bf at the time, no I don’t remember which one, and he was bitterly hostile towards me. Well considering the movie was about how white men (me) were oppressing and using black men (him) I guess it was understandable. However let’s just say we didn’t see each other for a few days. :wink:
Obviously this is a point we will never agree on. So enjoy your analysis of nothing.

[quote=“Vannyel”]
Why is Hitler memorabilia ‘especially sicko’? Well let’s see there is a very strong lobbying group that works to make sure no one forgets who the victims were. [/quote]

Vannyel, again, you show your true colors. You really don’t get it, OR…you are full of so much other-hatred and self-hatred that you cannot see the forest from the trees.

Of course, all mass murderers deserve to rot in hell, everyone damn one of them. There is no special place reserved for Hitler.

What do you have against the Jews?

It is pissing me on when someone uses the old anti-jewish stereotype of Jews manipulating public opinion to ensure noone forgets about their losses.

Such statements contain the subconscious statement their loss would not be so bad. And wasn’t it Vannyel making a joke about Jews being turned into soap by Germans? I hate such “jokes”.

Okay, maybe for you guys the Holocaust is already a simple number from the history book. I found it is very helpful to keep single photographs in mind. Makes the whole thing more personal. 6 000 000 Jews killed? Just a number to our feeling. A face full of pain … we can FEEL that and probably keep our stupid joke.

What about a football field full of dead naked women, all quite young. They were sorted out to work (that’s why young) and later shot. Two soldiers marching in between them, watching them. One woman still lives, tries to get up. BUM, our Wehrmacht hero shoots her in the back.
Nice snuff horror flick, ey? But reality. Just one film I saw which had been found in the SS stuff.

Or photos of doctors experiments on Jews. A young women, bound and stuck in a basin full of ice water. Her face sheer pain and horror. The guy standing behind her, holding her face in the camera and grinning in it for the foto. Nice SM stuff? Fu…ing reality. They tested how long German soldiers can survive in ice water for submariners. Vannyel, now make a f…ing joke about no women being on submarines.

Or a guy hanging on a tree. His testicles are as long as his arm, as he is hanging by them.

Don’t wanna hear? Then don’t tell anyone this is not worth mentioning.

This Royal kid is a kid nevertheless and was stupid. I am not referring to him.

I know, being German, those things are more lively to me then to others.
I did not want to blame anyone, really, as YOU did not commit the crime. But I am just tired to hear some things.

[quote=“bob_honest”]
What about a football field full of dead naked women, all quite young. They were sorted out to work (that’s why young) and later shot. Two soldiers marching in between them, watching them. One woman still lives, tries to get up. BUM, our Wehrmacht hero shoots her in the back.
Nice snuff horror flick, ey? But reality.[/quote]

Hey Bob, I know what you’re talking about but be careful. More than a year ago we were having a “discussion” about this very subject and I did post some the photos you’re referring to. And I almost got banned. Some people here like to talk talk talk but when they have reality pushed in their faces they don’t change their minds. They just try to shut you up.

[quote=“bob_honest”] It is pissing me on when someone uses the old anti-Jewish stereotype of Jews manipulating public opinion to ensure noone forgets about their losses. …
And wasn’t it Vannyel making a joke about Jews being turned into soap by Germans? I hate such “jokes”.
[/quote]
Well bob_honest, I never made any jokes whatsoever so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
When I was stationed in Germany, I visited the camps and saw all the pictures. Just because I chose not to dwell on the past doesn’t mean I have forgotten it. No amount of remembering will bring anyone back or erase what happened. The argument that we need to remember to stop it from happening again is valid but on the other hand remembering doesn’t require yearly memorials, special holidays, or a whole nation (germany) feeling so guilt-ridden they can’t even function in the here and now.

As for old stereotypes…are you saying this organization doesn’t exist?..
http://www.adl.org/adl.asp

[quote]The immediate object of the League is to stop, by appeals to reason and conscience and, if necessary, by appeals to law, the defamation of the Jewish people. Its ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens."
ADL Charter
October 1913[/quote]

[quote=“lane119”]Vannyel, again, you show your true colors. You really don’t get it, OR…you are full of so much other-hatred and self-hatred that you cannot see the forest from the trees.
Of course, all mass murderers deserve to rot in hell, everyone damn one of them. There is no special place reserved for Hitler.[/quote]
First I don’t hate anyone, second I am stating facts as I see them without becoming emotionally involved, and finally, I don’t believe in heaven or hell.
If you think I don’t get it because of my beliefs then you are right…according to you, I don’t get it. But just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they are a closet nazi or some individual full of hatred for other people. I merely pointed out some facts, you ignored them and that is your choice.

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“bob_honest”]
What about a football field full of dead naked women, all quite young. They were sorted out to work (that’s why young) and later shot. Two soldiers marching in between them, watching them. One woman still lives, tries to get up. BUM, our Wehrmacht hero shoots her in the back.
Nice snuff horror flick, ey? But reality.[/quote]

Hey Bob, I know what you’re talking about but be careful. More than a year ago we were having a “discussion” about this very subject and I did post some the photos you’re referring to. And I almost got banned. Some people here like to talk talk talk but when they have reality pushed in their faces they don’t change their minds. They just try to shut you up.[/quote]

Hmmm… all this is a historic fact. So it should be allowed to mention it. I know my descriptions were vivid, but I did not add a single detail which was not in the original sources. Don’t ask for links, it is from history books, educational films at school and stuff. But if anybody doubts, he can ask me at any time.
Okay, I read too much ant-Jew sterotypes and even pro-Hitler stuff (NOT in this discussion here), so I got a bit angry. I regret nothing though.

I will search Forumosa for this Jew and soap stuff. If I do not find it, I will apologize.

Bob Honest:

I knew that there was a reason that I liked you. So sensible just like my German cousins. And this generation after all is NOT responsible for what the previous generation did so no one should blame today’s Germans for yesterday’s atrocities. It isn’t fair BUT I really hate Germans who overexaggerate American atrocities to somehow compensate for their past history. Enough said. We all know what I mean so no need to beat a dead horse.

Bob Honest:

Not a stereotype, but fact. They put a lot of marketing effort into keeping their “brand” alive, and also in eliminating competing brands (e.g. Israel blacklisting scholars of the Armenian “holocaust”).

The “six million” number is basically garbage–an early estimate that somehow became gospel. The number of Jewish war deaths from various causes has continually been revised downward, though you wouldn’t know it from Yad Vashem. Most of these would be from disease and the like.

For comparison’s sake, how many Russian and Ukrainian gentiles were murdered by Jews during the Communist period? Anybody know? Perhaps we should encourage Jews to agonize over their collective guilt, and pay reparations.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Bob Honest:

Not a stereotype, but fact. They put a lot of marketing effort into keeping their “brand” alive, and also in eliminating competing brands (e.g. Israel blacklisting scholars of the Armenian “holocaust”).

The “six million” number is basically garbage–an early estimate that somehow became gospel. The number of Jewish war deaths from various causes has continually been revised downward, though you wouldn’t know it from Yad Vashem. Most of these would be from disease and the like.[/quote]
I am quite surprised that a post like this would see the light of day here. Holocaust denial is an industry that I would like to think those here are above.
Just some basic’s. Do a Google for more.
Estimated Number of Jews Killed
in The Final Solution

POLAND’S HOLOCAUST: 6 MILLION CITIZENS DEAD
(3 MILLION CHRISTIANS + 3 MILLION JEWS)
. This figure corresponds to the previous links figures.
The victims of the Holocaust: an estimation…

An interesting question. Is there any further specifics available on this claim? Since the Ukraine are was almost completely decimated of population during the Second Workd War, and since the Jewish population there was reduced to single digit % of it pre-WWII count, who indeed were these “Jews” that you refer to?
If they were “…murdered by Jews during the Communist period…” then it would appear that they were communists. So are you saying that there were special Juden Communists roaming as organized bands of hunter/killer squads under the USSR mantle?
An interesting theory. Could you provide more facts about this group and their alleged atrocities?

Reading this post from Screaming Jesus suddendly raises the panic feeling in me, the Holocaust will soon be forgotten or just an episode in the history books like other slaughters in the past. All my books on 3rd Reich are back home, but okay, I will see what the internet can provide and maybe start a thread about information on it.

Vannyel! You there! I did not find the soap thing, probably it was someone else, but this tasteless comment I found in the Swastika discussion is not much better:

[quote]

So there is a restaurant in Taiwan where you sit around in Nazi uniforms torturing Jews? Or is a theme park in southern Taiwan where you get to play doctor on Jews? I don’t think so. [/quote]

This was a discussion about the bar where they had holocaust pictures on the wall and you want to point out something like “all not so bad” and make the “play doctor on Jews” remark.

Darling, if you ever read all the details I have read about playing doctor with Jews, you would not say such thing. There is a whole library from Dr. Menge still at Frankfurt University. I know you just wanted to be funny, but such playing doctor meant for example to cut out the eyes of to twins (children) to compare them. Yes, I sound emotional again. But I wish I only made this up, it is fact.

Screaming Jesus: So Germans did what? Only starved a few ten-thousands to death? You do not believe it was millions of jews killed? So where are all those millions from Germany and Poland and Ukraine and and …
All in the East of Europe on cute little farms like the Nazis said? Or in Madagascar like they said once? A few managed to flew, I know.

In Germany you will find people doubting the Holocaust usually in East Germany, where the confused people’s ideas are sometimes a strange commie / Nazi
mix. Including … my own relatives. Hope they recover.
[um … I am not from East Germany, but have a few relatives there. Nice people … but very confused at the moment]

Thanks TC.

It is good people like Screaming Jesus speak their mind out, so we can discuss.

In Germany, it is a crime to doubt the Holocaust. But this leads to the effect not to be able to discuss it really. Your opponent in such a discussion will always say “law does not allow me to discuss it”. So good we can do it here.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Not a stereotype, but fact. They put a lot of marketing effort into keeping their “brand” alive, and also in eliminating competing brands (e.g. Israel blacklisting scholars of the Armenian “holocaust”).
[/quote]

And Screaming Jesus, what is your brand?

weirdlinks.com/my%20little%2 … ls%20(pics.htm

More than seven million in Ukraine alone, courtesy of Lazar Kaganovitch (Jew):

natvan.com/pub/98/061398.txt

The weird thing about “holocaust denial” is, there’s little effort to define what set of beliefs they mean to hold sacrosanct, in order to demarcate what it is that we are not allowed to deny. Is anything that detracts from the official propaganda (true or not) supposed to be illegal?

Obviously this will vary country by country, but one German had his Ph.D. stripped from him for some comments he wrote about the plumbing at Auschwitz. He didn’t say the holocaust never happened, he just said the standard explanation of the plumbing didn’t work.

[quote=“bob_honest”]Reading this post from Screaming Jesus suddendly raises the panic feeling in me, the Holocaust will soon be forgotten or just an episode in the history books like other slaughters in the past. All my books on 3rd Reich are back home, but okay, I will see what the internet can provide and maybe start a thread about information on it.

Vannyel! You there! I did not find the soap thing, probably it was someone else, but this tasteless comment I found in the Swastika discussion is not much better:

bob_honest, I am not trying to be nasty but you obviously misunderstood my comment…I was being sarcastic and pointing out that such places do not exist. I never said they should, and I don’t thinks I implied it either. The restaurant is a business, if you don’t want to eat there then don’t. I haven’t. Also I don’t see a “all not so bad” anywhere in that quote. Why do you keep injecting or attributing things to me that I have never said??

And what makes it so special that it shouldn’t be an episode in the history books like other slaughters in the past? It was in the past, and it belongs in the history books.

And this is how adults handle discussions in Germany, pass laws that forbid open discussion?

I didn’t read anyone denying it happened just questioning the validity of the numbers.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n5p25_Weber.html
And speaking of bad guys…

[quote]Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar

FROM THE PUBLISHER
"Fifty years after his death, Stalin remains a figure of powerful and dark fascination. The almost unfathomable scale of his crimes - as many as 20 million Soviets died in his purges and infamous Gulag - has given him the lasting distinction as a personification of evil in the twentieth century. [/quote]
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9781400042302

Wars throughout history…
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatx.htm#Jews

[quote=“Vannyel”]
I didn’t read anyone denying it happened, just questioning the validity of the numbers.[/quote]

Vannyel, gotta luv ya for your logic. Okay, let’s say, for the sake argument, that 6 million Jews were not killed in Hitler’s little war. That is a figure that has entered the history books, but it’s just a number that doesn’t have to be written in stone. Let’s say, 989,765 Jews were killed in the Holocaust; let’s go even further and say 500,000 were killed. Just because they were Jews. Not enemy soldiers, not enemy combatants, just Jews living in Germany, France, Poland Italy, Holland, etc, just 500,000.

Does that make the story more digestible for you?

It’s not the numbers that matter, it’s the sickness that led to those mass murders. A sickness that doesn’t seem to have disappeared very much either, judging from some comments here.

We were discussing Harry’s, er, uniform. Suddenly, with you and SJ, we are back in Holocaust denial territory. Okay, just 500,000. Does that make you and Mr SJ happier?

Takes all kinds, I guess.

[I know you mean well. Just express yourself better, sir!]

Vannyel, I am glad you asked, what makes the slaughtering of Jews so special. Actually I know you are no anti-semite or something, so let us get the confrontation out of this discussion. I reacted emotionaly.

What makes it very special is, it is the only incident in history, where an ethnic group was slaughtered in a factory-style fashion. No riots besides planned PR actions. No overheating emotions besides planned incidents.
No.
Germany was the most developped country of all before WW2. All nobel prices to us. We were most advanced in nuclear physics. We were building the first jet fighter in WW2 and much more.
And now, this society of people who love sorting out things, following procedures and love stickeing to rules, decides to eliminate a whole branch with ethnics roots (not really an ethnic group, more a religious group with ethnic roots!) out of Germany and Europe.
Concentration camps were split into two categories. The normal ones for production and storage of people and the “Vernichtungslager” (Destruction camps) to kill people. I have seen calculations which method to kill people is the most efficient. How many you can kill per hour. Gas chambers was the winner. Make the people think they are showers and then gas comes out. You cant beat the rate per hour.
They tested other methods like having trucks with a large storage area. You let the exhaust of the truck go inside the storage compartment and they die. But it takes quite long and loading and unloading takes time too. And it was more expensive. Too slow: shooting, elctrocution and whatever.

Germans are not evil, but very effective. And they tend to put things to extremes. In good and in bad. We are good to organize and make procedures efficient. But woe me, when it is the wrong thing. Those days, we had all the effectiveness, but not too much … social development. So it was like a maschine going wild.

A Polish poet once said (those days) “Death is a Master from Germany”.
There must be a reason for this sentence.

I am suprised I have to explain all this. Damned! The Neocons should not nag there is too few bible being teached at school. They should teach you this.

Screaming Jesus: All those people were real! No fiction! In Essen is a big Jewish Church. So big the community must have been thousands! But Essen was quite small those days, maybe 200 000 people, not sure.

They were not “the Jews” doing something in Ukraine. They were average Germans! The cute chick crossing the street wiggling her behind! The ugly old hag nagging you for littering on the street! The old piano teacher next door, the bus driver and the taxi driver from across the street. Must have been 2 or 3 million in Germany, not sure now. You can check “European Jewish Culture” in Google, it was there! And is gone now.

Hell, what do I have to explain next? That cancer is bad?
Okay, I am not blaming, feel free to ask!

[quote=“bob_honest”]
I am suprised I have to explain all this. Damned![/quote]

Honest_bob, great post!

Isn’t amazing that in 2005, it takes a German national to tell some North Americans on a chat board in Taiwan what the Holocaust was all about!!!

Amazing post.

[quote=“lane119”][quote=“Vannyel”]
I didn’t read anyone denying it happened, just questioning the validity of the numbers.[/quote]

Vannyel, gotta luv ya for your logic. Okay, let’s say, for the sake argument, that 6 million Jews were not killed in Hitler’s little war. That is a figure that has entered the history books, but it’s just a number that doesn’t have to be written in stone. Let’s say, 989,765 Jews were killed in the Holocaust; let’s go even further and say 500,000 were killed. Just because they were Jews. Not enemy soldiers, not enemy combatants, just Jews living in Germany, France, Poland Italy, Holland, etc, just 500,000.

Does that make the story more digestible for you?

It’s not the numbers that matter, it’s the sickness that led to those mass murders. A sickness that doesn’t seem to have disappeared very much either, judging from some comments here.

We were discussing Harry’s, er, uniform. Suddenly, with you and SJ, we are back in Holocaust denial territory. Okay, just 500,000. Does that make you and Mr SJ happier?

Takes all kinds, I guess.

[I know you mean well. Just express yourself better, sir!][/quote]
No the reduced numbers don’t make it any more digestible but I like the facts to be as accurate as possible in any discussion (or a disclaimer that they might not be especially since there is no official count just unqualified guesses and I am an American and I know how officials like to toss around ‘facts’…I am still waiting for those damn WMD).
Yes, it is the sickness that led to those mass murders…not a uniform, not a funny little twisted symbol but basic human sickness. A sickness that might be manifested in some who wear a uniform but not LIKELY to be present in a stupid 20-year-old going to a costume party.

[quote=“bob_honest”]What makes it very special is, it is the only incident in history, where an ethnic group was slaughtered in a factory-style fashion. No riots besides planned PR actions. No overheating emotions besides planned incidents.
Germans are not evil, but very effective. And they tend to put things to extremes. In good and in bad. We are good to organize and make procedures efficient. But woe me, when it is the wrong thing. Those days, we had all the effectiveness, but not too much … social development. So it was like a maschine going wild. [/quote]
Yes but as horrible as this was it doesn’t justify some posters over-reaction to a kid’s poor choice in costume. And the German government’s solution of denying rational debate on the topic is coming pretty close to fostering the environment of Germany leading up to WWII (well at least according to my textbook recollects about censorship in Germany at the time).
So we have finally agreed…the Holocaust was a terrible, devastating thing that should never have happened and should never happen again. Now we just disagree about the impact of Nazi symbols (especially by a kid going to a private party – not out hunting victims to bash), how many people died at the hands of the Germans, whether censoring debate (or Nazi symbols) helps, and whether it deserves all the ‘push’ the ADL puts behind it.
IMHO, people should study history, be aware of the facts (as much as are available), and learn from it but they should not live their lives in the past.