agreed. Toronto is a perfect example. Since they put in designated streetcar (tram) right of way lanes and bike lanes, traffic is a mess.
The bikers feel that they have the right of way at all times, weaving in and out of traffic, and traffic is usually at a standstill as a 1/4 filled streetcar (tram) flies by all the cars stuck in traffic. 
In Taichung, the gov’t has designed free so called “MRT bus lines”. There are about 10 lines that run throughout the city and some reach into the suburbs. Most of the buses are pretty new and on a regular schedule. As well, at major bus stops, there are electronic real-time boards that show when the next bus will arrive. Unfortunately, aside from these MRT bus lines, the public transportation system is run down and unreliable. If they could move all the money they’re spending on the actual MRT (money pit) into these more modern bus lines, perhaps more people would use public transport. I think most people want a clean, modern, comfortable and reliable way to get somewhere. An expensive MRT system isn’t always the best way to achieve this, especially in Taichung. Also, as long as it’s so easy to ride your scooter and park anywhere, who is going to take the bus?
Cars ruin pretty much all of them would be another way to look at it.
Which perfectly good cities have they ruined?
Pretty much all of them.
Can you imagine a city without gas burning vehicles?
I think they’ll rely on Filipino labour instead … 
I have lots of friends and ex-out-laws in Kaohsiung. They were all sending me lovely photos of the MRT stations when they first opened, then within a couple of months they were complaining that the property value/rent had gone up so much around the stations that all their favorite shops and resturants had had to move. So there’s no point taking the MRT any more, and other than for going to Taipei or Tainan, it’s too expensive and too inconvienient. The busses still cost less and the city had tried to improve their convienience; and of course, everyone still has his or her scooter.
It’s just like the pineapple farmers. (The year I first went to Taiwan, pineapples were for sale everywhere and dirt cheap–because the year before, not may farmers had planted pineapples so they had brought a great price.)
I use the KH MRT whenever I wanna go to the Airport 
Aside from that… it’s not always useful. It goes through a couple of good places, but I heard from a KH-er that the big problem is that it doesn’t really go to where most people work. In Taipei everyone works in offices or buildings that are pretty accessible from the street, in KH lots of people work in factories or other compounds… so once you get off the station and walk in the gate, you’ve still got a 30 minute walk. (Or, you could just ride your scooter…)
Dunno how true that is, but it’s what I heard!
MRT in Tainan would be useless. What’d be good would be a way to utilise the High Speed Rail buses for non-high speed rail passengers … they’re the only bus lines that really work!! (Though a few more have sprouted up in the last few months… Apparently people use them now O.O )
In Taichung it’s the same: the MRT line won’t take people to where they work. It goes from north of the city to the HSR in the south. That’s it! Who’s going to use it when scooters and parking on the sidewalk is so convenient and free.
Large public transport projects are often white elephants for a long time. The Taiwan Railway runs at a perennial loss, and now the HSR is the biggest white elephant. The Kaohsiung MRT may take a lot longer to become profitable. The only real success has been Taipei. And even so the Return on Investment is not big concerning the size of the investment. Over 20 billion spent and another 16 scheduled.
The Taipei MRT is THE worlds most expensive public transport project.
Thats why they are mostly only affordable by a wealthy govt.
Many of them. Can’t yer read?
Well, the thing is that Taiwan is late when it comes to building their major public transport systems, so other countries (i.e. in Europe) paid less (well, maybe not in exact terms, but at least in terms of what the money was worth at the time) and have had the systems for longer. I don’t think you can count ROI on something that’s meant to be a public service in how much money it makes. It’s a long term investment and it’s for the good of the people, no?
That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be built where its not needed and normally they’re planned to bring people to and from places of work, or something in that general direction…
Yes its a public service but it has to make sense and at least be financially feasible and viable .
Means they cant build them willy nilly.
Have you seen the London Underground? I don’t give a shit what they paid for it, I’ll stick with Taiwan’s MRT.
Much of urban sprawl can be eliniated byt putting in wide streets and MRT before it is needed in those areas where growth is planned. If it is built after it is needed, sprawl continues unchecked. I was amazed at how Scottsdale, AZ built freeways to nowhere. Go back in a couple years and now they go where the growth was planned and transportation provided for in advance. I also agree that the government can not just compare the costs of construction with revenue. That is a short sighted view. There is soo much more involved.
I agree with Benster’s direction.
For cities like Taipei do a reorganization of bus routes. East/West and North/South straight shot buses arriving every minute on major roads. Even if change buses still will be fast. For those not wanting to change buses then, yes, still have some of those odd bus routes that go everywhere.
-Cutting down on number of buses will provide more revenue to those left running.
-Enforce traffic rules (e.g. bus must pull off to side of road for passengers, no parking at bus stops, no motorcycles interfering with passengers getting on bus)
-provide real pull-in bus stops or somewhat protected lanes, and more shelters from weather
The whole bus experience in Taiwan should change…meaning more cars off the road. Yes, people will still buy cars but from the cheap (sorry, I mean cost conscious) people I know there is still demand for inexpensive, convenient public transport.
Yes, I used to use it on a daily basis, but it was built with horses and pick axes, so what do you expect?
It’s not just a matter of being cost concious, we have a car, my GF takes it to work every day as it’s much quicker than using public transport as she can take the motorway to work.
Taking the bus is a viable option, but as it goes all over the place as you say…
I’m quite lucky where we live as there are four routes that terminate around here and two of them operate at a for Taiwan very frequent rate.
Still, considering the type of buses the use here as well… I can understand why most people aren’t so keen on using them, yet during rush hour they’re packed to the brim and then some… which is also dangerous if there’s an accident.
you mean like nanjing road in TPE?
Taichung has the mass and density to easily support an excellent MRT system. What’s missing in Taiwan is the stick as well as the carrot i.e. taxes/fees on scooter use or banning scooters from city centres like any normal government (even the Chinese do it).
I have heard the argument against the MRT in Taichung from a taxi driver, didn’t buy it myself. An MRT would be used by many students and women in particular. It is dangerous to ride scooters and it is also very hot in Taichung in the summer.
The MRT would also be excellent to link in and out of Taichung railway station where there are many buxibans and dense population and the HSR which currently is a bit remote. The best option would also be to build some streetcars to link into the core subway system as Taichung does have some wide avenues. Taichung is a city in transition, they are building a whole new world trade centre area and that will support many new offices similar to Nankang. Most people don’t use the buses in Taichung because they are very unreliable. It is true that Taichung is a driving city but that is also the result of a poor public transportation network aswell as the outlying industrial areas.
Taoyuan could do with a couple of MRT lines running out of it’s train station which is very heavily utilised but in a very crowded jammed network of streets, this would be a popular resource.
Taiwanese people by their nature are quite pessimistic, they almost always point out the bad before the good, or easily get excited and then let down. The Kaoshiung MRT may be losing money but it is a good resource for the city. I have been very impressed by their MRT and bikepaths, it is a massive improvement on the previous situation. The reason why it is not more of a success is more to do with the central govt. neglect of investment there and therefore low incomes (avg. 20,000 NTD/mth) making it a bit expensive to take the subway for many people. Once the MRT system is there the govt. can put pressure to reduce scooter and vehicle numbers …
Most public infrastructure loses money, lets spend money on things that are good for the environment and living instead of being negative about it! How much does Taiwan have to pay those useless patriot missiles, how much taxes go to supporting special rates for teachers and soldiers? Taiwan needs more long term vision. I am sure people said the same thing about every subway line that was being planned in Taipei previously…now it is an excellent and well utilised system. Taiwan also needs to balance development instead of concentrating everything in Taipei, for the welfare of all citizens of Taiwan. Now Taipei is suffering from overcrowding and expensive property. Oil is going to continue to be expensive and global warming is coming, can’t see the argument against developing public transport. Go to China and see what they are doing…they are not fiddle-faddling about the economics of it…